Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I haven't really been able to find any info on these species....
Leopard Ratsnakes, Japanese Forest Ratsnakes, Green Bush Ratsnakes, and Pere David's Ratsnakes. I am particularly interested in Japanese Forest Ratsnakes and Pere David's Ratsnakes. Any info would be great. I am looking for care sheets and pics.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

Species:
Elaphe situla

Synonyms:
Coluber Situla LINNAEUS 1758: 223
Coluber leopardinus BONAPARTE 1834
Callopeltis leopardina - FITZINGER 1834
Ablabes quadrilineatus - DUMƒRIL & BIBRON 1854: 319 (fide WALLACH)
Natrix leopardina - COPE 1862: 338
Coronella quadrilineata - JAN 1863: 247
Callopeltis quadrilineatus - SCHREIBER 1875: 277
Coluber leopardinus - BOULENGER 1894: 41
Coluber leopardinus - BOULENGER 1913
Elaphe situla - ENGELMANN et al 1993
Elaphe situla - SCHULZ 1996: 241
Zamenis situla - UTIGER et al. 2002

Common name:
E: Leopard Snakes, European Ratsnake
G: Leopardnatter

Subspecies:
Family:
Colubridae, Serpentes (snakes)

Distribution:
S Italy (south to Ofanto river),
W Yugoslavia: coastal Croatia (including some adriatic islands),
Hercegowina, Monte Negro, Macedonia,
Turkey, Cyprus (?)
Greece (Crete, Syros, Milos, Andros, Kynthos, Paros, Seriphos, Thira, Tinos, Kea, Lesbos, Syphnos, Chios, Corfu = Corfou, Samos),
Malta, Bulgaria (Black Sea coast, Tundza river),
Albania, Poland, Soviet Union, Ukraine (Krym).

Terra typica: Egypt, (Linnaeus, 1758); Turkey: Izmir (Bodenheimer, 1944)

Comment:
Synonymy partly after KHALIKOV & ANANJEVA (pers. comm.). Occurs as spotted and striped forms (MATTISON 1995: 124).

photo: http://itgmv1.fzk.de/www/itg/uetz/herp/photos/Elaphe_situla.jpg
photo: http://itgmv1.fzk.de/www/itg/uetz/herp/photos/Elaphe_situla_2.jpg
photo: http://itgmv1.fzk.de/www/itg/uetz/herp/photos/Elaphe_situla_3.jpg
photo: http://www.herp.it/jeroen/bulgaria2005.htm
photo: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~korell/situla.htm
photo: http://www.ratsnakes.com/species.html

References:
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

HABITAT, FOOD HABITS AND REPRODUCTIVE BIOLOGY OF THE SNAKE ELAPHE SITULA IN SOUTHERN ITALY:

Preliminary Data

(di Massimo Capula, Luca Luiselli, U. Agrimi, Rosario Aguilar and C. Anibaldi)

There are so many species that we know so little about. Elaphe situla, a brightly coloured, oviparous colubrid widwspread in Mediterranean Europe, is one such species. In Italy it occurs only in the southern regions, but its precise distribution is far from being acceptably know. In February 1996, an ecological study of these snakes in the Salento (province of Lecce, southern Italy) was started. The preliminary results of our investigation are presented in this talk. We observed Elaphe situla in well-managed woodlands and in suburban areas as well. However, the number of encountered individuals was usually low. Males were captured more frequently than females. These snakes were most frequently encountered in late evening or very early in the morning, often at the borders of old buildings, walls, and stonepiles. The preliminary dietary records indicate that adults feed only upon rodents (Apodemus, Mus, Microtus)and shrews (Crocidura). Juveniles also feed upon immature rodents. Although nothing is know about the natural predators of Elaphe situla, a case of predation by an adult Coluber viridiflavus was recorded. Males engaged in vigorous and cruent combats for access to female, and the winner copulated with the female. Each female laid 4-6 eggs, and the offspring were of a larger size relative to adult size than those of other Italian Elaphe.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Current literature has the leopard rat classified as Zamenis situla, in a genus with longissima. They have some unique characteristics, and are from a Mediterranean climate.

TC

Species:
Elaphe davidi

Synonyms:
Tropidonotus Davidi SAUVAGE 1884: 144
Coluber davidi - BOULENGER 1894: 56
Coluber halli BOULENGER 1914
Elaphe davidi - POPE 1935
Elaphe davidi - SCHULZ 1996
Elaphe davidi - UTIGER et al. 2002

Common name:
E: Pere David's Rat Snake
G: Davids Kletternatter

Subspecies:
Family:
Colubridae, Serpentes (snakes)

Distribution:
NE China (southward to Hebei and Shanxi, Beijing, Heilongjiang, Liaoning, Nei Mongol, Shandong, Shanxi),
N Korea

Terra typica: China (Sauvage, 1884)

Comment:
info: http://www.ratsnakes.com/species.html

References
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Species:
Elaphe prasina

Synonyms:
Coluber prasinus BLYTH 1854: 291
Gonyosoma gramineum G†NTHER 1864 (fide SMITH 1943)
Coluber prasinus - BOULENGER 1894: 59
Elaphe prasina - SMITH 1930
Elaphe prasina - SMITH 1943
Elaphe prasina - TWEEDIE 1950
Elaphe prasina - GRANDISON 1978: 288
Elaphe prasina - SCHULZ 1996: 201
Gonyosoma prasina - DAS 1997
Elaphe prasina - MANTHEY & GROSSMANN 1997: 344
Elaphe prasina - COX et al. 1998: 53

Common name:
E: Green Trinket Snake, Green Bush Rat Snake, Green Ratsnake
G: GrŸne Strauchnatter, GrŸne Spitzkopfnatter

Subspecies:
Family:
Colubridae, Serpentes (snakes)

Distribution:
India (Darjeeling, Assam, Arunachal Pradesh (Namdapha - Changlang district) [A. Captain, pers. comm.] ),
Myanmar (= Burma), N Thailand, West Malaysia, Laos ?, Vietnam,
China (Yunnan, Guizhou, Hainan)

Terra typica: Assam (India)

Comment:
Erroneously reported for the Andaman Islands (DAS 1999).

photo: http://www.elaphe.it/image/Elaphe_prasina.jpg
photo: http://www.ratsnakes.com/species.html

References
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Scientific Name: Elaphe prasina (Blyth, 1854)
Common Names: Green Bush Ratsnake
Size: 90 to 120 cm
Distribution: Burma, China, India, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam
Other Info: Elaphe prasina is a small tree dwelling ratsnake and is mainly diurnal. They have been found at higher and lower elavations and prefer a high humidity level.
They are mostly found in rainforests so keep in a spacious terrarium with many climbing branches. If the humidity gets too low, they will leave the branches to soak in the water bowl.
Mating is known to occur anytime from September through March. E. prasina lay 5-11 eggs requiring 54-62 days incubation. Females are known to grow larger and heavier than males.
This species has just recently become available and is still quite rare in private collections.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

There is no common name Japanese Forest Rat.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Euprepiophis conspicillata, Japanese forest ratsnake is the common name. It previously was Elaphe, but the new classifications put it in with the Mandarins.

>>There is no common name Japanese Forest Rat.
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>>"Life without risk is to merely exist."

That should be Euprepiophis conspicillatus, since the gender changed too.

>>Euprepiophis conspicillata, Japanese forest ratsnake is the common name. It previously was Elaphe, but the new classifications put it in with the Mandarins.
>>
>>
>>>>There is no common name Japanese Forest Rat.
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>>>>"Life without risk is to merely exist."
>>
>>

Geez, Euprepiophis, I'm still trying to pronounce that one
Any news on quadrivirgata taxonomy?
Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

No new news on quads. The Old World ratsnakes as a whole seem more and more to have characteristics of rat and racer and I believe can be traced back to a common ancestor from East Asia that gave rise to the various groups near the base of the ratsnake branch of colubrids.

TC

Hey Terry,
Do you know if all groups (CNAH, SSAR, Etc) agree on that taxon yet or are they still holding competition to see who can urinate higher on the wall?
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Hi, Bill.

There's still competition...LOL.

Utiger's work, reclassifying and resurrecting genera/species of Elaphe, hasn't passed the test of time, yet. Everyone seems to agree lots of work needs to be done on the old Elaphe, but not everyone agrees what is the best thing to do. As an amateur, I agree with a lot of what Utiger, et. al, has done, but not all. We have a choice to use the new designations, or just stick with the old, "Elaphe".

CNAH works mainly with North American herps and does not list any Old World ratsnakes. I don't have SSAR's list of genera/species names, so don't really know at this time. I'm not sure they have a list of Old World species anyway. They may not have taken a postion on this. EMBL does have a world list which I'll provide a link to. Hopefully, that will show up. The last scientific name entry for the forest ratsnake is Euprepiophis conspicillatus. That doesn't mean you have to accept it, just that it has been published.

Cheers...Terry Cox

>>Hey Terry,
>>Do you know if all groups (CNAH, SSAR, Etc) agree on that taxon yet or are they still holding competition to see who can urinate higher on the wall?
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>>Regards, Bill McGighan

EMBL link

Here's a link to EMBL's homepage. You can click on "Snakes" and get to the right ones from there....

EMBL link

Thank you, Sir,
Excellent Link.
PS Although too cold for our blood, your part of Michigan is pretty nice.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

You're welcome.

Although we only get 6 months of herping, it's still pretty nice. But that's also one of the reasons we're retiring in AZ in a couple years.

TC

Afton Farm

Species:
Elaphe conspicillata

Synonyms:
Coluber conspicillatus BOIE 1826: 211
Elaphis conspicillatus - DUMƒRIL, BIBRON & DUMƒRIL 1854: 285
Proterodon tessellatuys HALLOWELL 1860: 499 (fide STEJNEGER 1907)
Coronella perspicillata M†LLER 1878: 595 (lapsus)
Coluber conspicillatus - BOULENGER 1894: 51
Elaphe conspicillata - STEJNEGER 1907: 334
Elaphe conspicillata japonica MAKI 1931
Elaphe japonica - FRANK & RAMUS 1995
Elaphe conspicillata - SCHULZ 1996
Euprepiophis conspicillatus - UTIGER et al. 2002

Common name:
E: Japanese Woodsnake
G: Japanische Walnatter

Subspecies:
Family:
Colubridae, Serpentes (snakes)

Distribution:
Japan (Yakushima, Tanegashima, Kyushu, Shikoku, Honshu, Ryukyu Islands),
Russia: Kunasir

Terra typica: Japan (Boie, 1826)

japonica: Japan (north of Hokaido, Honshu), Kunashir Island (Kuril Islands, Russia); Terra typica: Shirane-san near Nikko.

Comment:
Named after the black markings on the head of the young (conspicillata, Latin for a pair of spectacles).

photo: http://www.ratsnakes.com/species.html
photo: http://village.infoweb.ne.jp/~fwic4591/snake/ejaphebi.htm

References
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Scientific Name: Elaphe conspicillata (Boie, 1826)
Common Names: Japanese Forest Ratsnake, Jimuguri
Size: 70 to 100 cm (up to 120 cm)
Distribution: Japan
Other Info: Elaphe conspicillata is a small snake for the advanced keeper and rarely available. The Japanese name "jimuguri" means "burrowing", so they are a very secretive snake and rarely encountered even in areas where they are abundant.
E. conspicillata is known to be active for very short periods of time during the year, only coming out from April thru early June, and October through early November. They are known to go very long periods without eating.
Mating in spring (April-May), they lay two to six eggs in late June/early July with 54 to 60 days incubation. Juveniles are beautiful but can be problem feeders. I had two juveniles hatch in late June 1998, one ate two pinkies after its first shed and not again till the following April, and the second did not eat at all until April 1999.
There is a "color-variety", E. conspicillata "japonica", that is a solid red snake. Also, the specimens from the northern Islands of Hokkaido and Kunashiri, Russia are very different in color and pattern. These may some day be granted subspecies status.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

http://www.ratsnakes.com/species.html

If you copy the above site and paste it into your browser it will take you to a cool Ratsnake site. Also all of the above sites under photo just do the same copy just after photo and paste them into your browser.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Phiber Optix:

Situla is relatively easy to find. Prasina is a little harder. Conspicillata is pretty scarce. Davidi is (as far I've ever heard) unavailable. It's only found in North Korea and a small area of northern China. Situla and conspicillata are montane species that like a cooler environment and can be picky eaters (sort of like working with mandaina). I'm not sure of the culture conditions for prasina but there are folks on this site who work with them.
Best regards
John

Conspicillata and Davidi are what I was really interested in. I can't even find a picture of davidi. I love the look of conspicillata but couldn't find any care sheet. I can't find a thing on davidi and was interested in them. Thanks for everyone's help. If you have or can find a picture of davidi please let me know.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

There's a pic of davidi in Schulz' monograph on the ratsnakes.

>>Conspicillata and Davidi are what I was really interested in. I can't even find a picture of davidi. I love the look of conspicillata but couldn't find any care sheet. I can't find a thing on davidi and was interested in them. Thanks for everyone's help. If you have or can find a picture of davidi please let me know.
>>-----
>>0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
>>1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
>>1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
>>.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
>>0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

Situla isn't montane. It is a resident of Mediterranean lowlands and foothills. It is cool-adapted because of the northern latitudes and fairly long winters, I believe. I brumate mine 3 to 4 months.

Davidi is very rare because it has not been observed much in its native habitat and very little has been reported from the countries of origin, i.e. n.e. China and North Korea. I don't believe any have ever been imported, but if they ever do they'd be quite pricey because they'd be in great demand at first. Davidi is montane and probably closely related to carinata, which is still included in the Elaphe at this time. Personally, I would put carinata, davidi, and quadrivirgata into a genus of their own.

Conspicillatus is montane also. They are quite cool-adapted because of elevation and high latitude. I kept a pair for awhile, which I got from Rex Knight. They can be kept going from Spring to Fall under fairly cool conditions, if not pushed. Sometimes they go off feed in summer. As far as I know, Rex still works with them and is probably the main breeder in the U.S. I found them fairly easy to raise, but gave them up because they seem to be closely related to mandarina and I couldn't keep both species.

TC

Conspicillatus is montane also. They are quite cool-adapted because of elevation and high latitude

Exactly what makes them montane and cool adapted???? Are you really aware of Japan's climate, topo features, and latitude???? Have you seen where they occur???? Oddly enough, I've found them at almost the same latitude as my current location in southern Oklahoma, and barely higher than my current elevation of 700', though they are certainly just as adaptable as obsoleta.
Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

>>Conspicillatus is montane also. They are quite cool-adapted because of elevation and high latitude
>>
>>Exactly what makes them montane and cool adapted???? Are you really aware of Japan's climate, topo features, and latitude????

Yes, I'm aware. I've been studying several Japanese snakes for a few years. But mainly I'm basing my opinions on conspicillata from what I've read, others keeping them, and my own experience keeping them. I didn't say they couldn't be found at low elevation, just that they're cool-adapted, and that's because of high elevations and high latitudes in Japan. Japan also has some lower latitudes, like those of OK, and some lower ele., but I believe conspics are cool-adapted, and that's because the species in general avoids the warmer, lower, situations.

Schulz, in his monograph ('96), said they generally live at elevations of 1000 to 3000 meters, in foothills and mountains. I see them as being similar to California mtn. kings in their habitat. I could give you examples of them being found at low elevations and almost sea level, but it wouldn't change my opinion that they are cool-adapted, and I think if you were going to keep one this info would be important for you. I think keeping them too warm could cause some problems, such as non-feeders during the summer months.

Shane, are you keeping any right now? Are you planning on keeping any? I know you've seen them in the wild and I haven't, but just consider the long range plans for captive husbandry. Thanks...

Terry

PS: They may be more adaptable than I realize too. After all, I have to consider where my pair came from, and their latitude and ele. were quite high. Later...TC

I'm not a herpetoculturist, Terry. What I would hate to see is misinformation about the three species of mainland Japanese ratsnakes, and the fact that those three are well documented from most elevations and latitudes in Japan. It's not a difficult concept. They are adaptable, for sure, but it would be silly to proclaim that they are montane, and from upper latitudes. Perhaps you should be so wise as to include latitude and elevation perspectives. Afterall, you told me that Japan had dry climates!
Perhaps herpetoculture would benefit from such truth?
Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

Ok, let's see if I can make an answer to that.

Japan's four main islands range from about 30 to 46* north latitude. Conspics are also found on the island of Kunishiri, if I remember correctly. I know they are found at about sea level there, but that's in the northerly part of their range. If you consider all the islands are mountainous, it's possible that the conspics are staying at high enough elevations to remain cool-adapted.

I know the other two species are more low elevation snakes, but all the literature has conspicillatus as being a montane snake. As far as being cool-adapted, that's just my opinion, which I've explained before. I offer no proof except that they've done well in my Herp Room under conditions I mentioned. I know others who have kept them warmer in warmer parts of the country and they haven't done as well. Can't see as how that's misinformation. I think telling folks to keep them too warm would be misinformation, unless someone has evidence that they do well under those conditions.

Shane, I know there's some very warm and dry areas and small islands in Japan, but I don't think a conspic would be found under those conditions and have never heard of it, have you?

TC

PS: I may have said Japan has some dry climates, but that was in reference to some isolated small islands, I'm sure, when we were talking about the forms of quadrivirgata on the outlying islands.

Perhaps you should be so wise as to include latitude and elevation perspectives. Afterall, you told me that Japan had dry climates!
>>Perhaps herpetoculture would benefit from such truth?
>>Shane

Yep, this merits a new post....I'm waiting on some first-hand experiences from Japan, but at this point my hypothesis is that conspics are probably more numerous in the foothills, between say 200 and 800m. Therefore, I think stereotyping the species as montane is stretching it, but certainly a snake that prefers cooler temps. On the matter of temps, I personally think that many snakes from the semitropics and tropics are kept warmer than necessary. So I suppose you answered your own question in regard to high latitudes?
Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

Shane, I look forward to getting more info on this species. At this point I'm only interested from an "understanding the ecology and natural history" point of view. You may be on to something in that they may be more numerous at lower elevations which is definitely worth looking into, but I know they inhabit areas that have cold winters, and at least some that are found at high elevations. There hasn't been too much written about the species. Your last trip to Japan was very productive. I hope you find a lot of these and can fill us in with a more comprehensive view.

When I say "high latitude", I'm merely saying the 30-46 deg. north lat. range of the species is high enough where the snake could adapt to cooler temps. Of course, things are always relative. If I was looking at conspicillatus as a low elevation snake, these latitudes wouldn't be too high at all. Also, like you said, they are adaptable. One island form (Tsu Island), at about 34*n. near South Korea, is an interesting population which I think may be existing at pretty low elevations and isolated, and are rather unique looking. There's a pic in Schulz ('96). But, overall, I think the species is cool adapted, and I think we agree on that now.

It never hurts to discuss things, imo. Someone's going to learn stuff, usually everyone. It's funny, the more I look into the Asian ratsnakes, the more I think about how most of them are cool-adapted. In general they do better with a cooler regime of temps than N. A. ratsnakes. That doesn't mean they don't ever use higher temps though. I had my conspics as high as 82*F, but never used any extra heat with them. I was really surprised when I studied the red-headed ratsnake, moellendorffi. I found that they did best with a four month cool down period (brumation), and they didn't like high temps either. I kept them much as I did the conspics. These are snakes with a range near the tropics.

I don't consider anything I say, or anyone else for that matter, gospel. It's conjecture and all debatable. That conspics are cool adapted is my opinion based on what I know and opinions can change if different information becomes available. I think I make conjectures sometimes and don't give enough reasons why which makes some people question it, which is fine. I'm always happy to tell why I think something if it's important to do that.

I wish you a lot of success in Japan, Shane, and hope you bring us lots of info and nice photos. I probably wouldn't post here at all if I wasn't interested in these types of things. I hope the original poster has learned from our discussion too. Not many would try to keep conspics because of the scarcity of knowledge, and they would need as much help as they could get on that. I think if you could keep E. mandarinus, you certainly could keep conspicillatus. Knowing stuff about mandarinus helps too. Thanks for the discussion...

TC

>>Yep, this merits a new post....I'm waiting on some first-hand experiences from Japan, but at this point my hypothesis is that conspics are probably more numerous in the foothills, between say 200 and 800m. Therefore, I think stereotyping the species as montane is stretching it, but certainly a snake that prefers cooler temps. On the matter of temps, I personally think that many snakes from the semitropics and tropics are kept warmer than necessary. So I suppose you answered your own question in regard to high latitudes?
>>Shane
>>-----
>>Shane's Herp Lifelist
>>http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

No worries TC, it needs discussion. As for the accounts, I'm not waiting on my own experiences, but I do hope to experience more! I've emailed a few Japan herpers. The paucity of herps in given areas is often only a matter of ignorance. I often find this to be the case, after I learn more about a particular animal. Hopefully I'll be able to provide some useful info. I've found two of the very common Mamushi, and three of the very reclusive conspicillata! I must be very unfortunate, or very lucky Something tells me that ignorance and lack of Nihon-go are the culprits.
Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

Shane, I remember your post from last summer. You were on the island of Kyushu, as I recall. My memory isn't the greatest these days, so I have to work at it. That is in the southernmost part of the Japanese archipelago. Those were some very nice photos you put up.

I believe there's a general difference between the southern part of conspicillatus' range and the northern part. Here's a topo map (section) from the southern part of the big island of Honshu. It's from an area around 35 degrees north, similar to North Carolina....

The elevations aren't that great here, with most of them being less than 1000 meters. The interior has the highest elevations, and generally they are less as you near the coast. Coastal elevations, under 500 meters, aren't very numerous though, so there's not that much low elevation territory for the snakes. It looks like a large part of the area is bt. 500 and 1000 m, and that the ratsnakes must be occupying hilly and low to medium elevations. The three ratsnake species are likely occuring sympatrically in these areas.

I understand better now the point you were making. Most of my experience has been with conspics from the northern half of Honshu, where elevations are higher, as well as latitude. I look forward to finding out more about how the three ratsnakes live in the southern half of their ranges. I remember that a long time ago, folks used to say there were two species, Elaphe conspicillata and E. japonica. E. japonica was from the northern half of their range, middle of Honshu north.

Anyway, it's very possible that conspicillatus is living at altitudes from about 500 to 1500 m in the southern half of their range, maybe even lower, and the southern form could have different behaviors as a result. I would say we need to look at the origin of the snake in relation to their captive maintenance then.

Thanks for your interest in this thread, Shane, and I look forward to any new info you bring back from Japan. Wish I could join you someday...

Terry

Terry, I found two that were at ~200m, practically the same locale, and one that I don't have precise data on, but as I recall it was somewhere within the 700m contour (I looked at the map at the time I found it). All three of my finds were from northern Kyushu, 1 AOR, 2 DOR, all were active, or should I say met their fate, in the morning hours.
I'll eventually make a new post on this topic, once I get a few emails. Hey, if you haven't already done so, you should download google earth. It's a great tool, and all you need to do to get elevation and coordinate data is scroll over the map (or chart as I was taught in my navigator days).
Shane

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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

Thanks for the extra info. I'll check out that google earth site and it should help me a lot.

I always thought conspicillatus kept to higher elevations than quadrivirgata or climacophora, but Schulz has quads and climacs at from sea level to 2000 m, conspicillatus from 100 to 3000 m. Conspics are also eaten by quads, prob. opportunistically, so I imagined they were more common at higher elevations, to avoid predation. Conspics live in mostly wooded or forested habitats, another reason I thought it was higher ele. Of course, it didn't help either that almost all the specimens I had heard of came from high elevations, except those on Kunishiri. Now it seems like they probably come into contact quite a bit with the other ratsnakes.

I'm still wondering what constitutes a "montane" snake. I usually think of a snake as montane if it lives in a mountanous area, doesn't avoid high elevations, and doesn't venture into flat, lowlying areas. There's very few montane ratsnakes in N. A. The black ratsnake might be considered montane because they inhabit mountains, but they only go to an elevation of around 1000 m, or less. They also venture into lowlands and flat areas with suitable habitat. I don't usually think of black rats as montane, but I believe some folks would call them that. Green ratsnakes, Senticolis triaspis, inhabit mountainous areas. Should we consider them to be montane. They seem to be restricted to a certain habitat zone (thorn scrub), from foothills to medium elevations, sea level to 2300 m, according to Schulz. Probably a lot of folks would call them montane. I don't usually think of them as montane myself, more habitat restricted. If conspicillatus isn't restricted to higher elevations and is common in lower, flatter areas, maybe we shouldn't consider it to be montane either.

The Old World has a lot more montane ratsnakes than the New World does. I could name half a dozen species off the top of my head that live almost exclusively in mountains. The New World does have montane kingsnakes, however, which I include with ratsnakes, since they are so closely related. A good example is the California mtn. kingsnake, Lampropeltis zonata. California lies bt. 32 and 42 deg. north lat, very similar to the latitudes for Japan. Zonata can be found from sea level in some areas to over 2500 meters, I believe. I don't think there's many herpers thinking zonata isn't a montane snake. Maybe conspicillatus should be considered montane for similar reasons.

Just some thoughts. Later....TC

"I don't think there's many herpers thinking zonata isn't a montane snake. Maybe conspicillatus should be considered montane for similar reasons.".....

Yeah, I agree, and it seems that the semantic side of montane is pretty moot when you consider most of Japan, making elevation and latitude observations more important. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a snake species on the main islands that isn't adapted to elevation, both high and low, they don't have anywhere else to go....I should have been a poet...LOL.
You should definitely download google earth....swing the globe around to Buzen, Japan (there's a convenient search feature), and just south of there you'll see the fingers of foothills where I found two conspics.
This is a bit off topic, but I have to wonder if conspics, in days long gone, weren't found in the limited flatlands down to sea level. The flatlands are obviously prime real estate in rugged terrain, and the Tokyo area is a perfect example of that. I've seen, from the air, damn near all of the southern coastline of Japan, with the exception of Hokkaido, and those flat places are most definitely well used. Now for a snake like quadrivirgata, that's probably good, but conspics seemingly don't fare too well in mass agricultural areas.
Shane

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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

>>>>Conspicillatus is montane also. They are quite cool-adapted because of elevation and high latitude
>>>>
>>>>Exactly what makes them montane and cool adapted???? Are you really aware of Japan's climate, topo features, and latitude????
>>
>>
>>Yes, I'm aware. I've been studying several Japanese snakes for a few years. But mainly I'm basing my opinions on conspicillata from what I've read, others keeping them, and my own experience keeping them. I didn't say they couldn't be found at low elevation, just that they're cool-adapted, and that's because of high elevations and high latitudes in Japan. Japan also has some lower latitudes, like those of OK, and some lower ele., but I believe conspics are cool-adapted, and that's because the species in general avoids the warmer, lower, situations.
>>
>>Schulz, in his monograph ('96), said they generally live at elevations of 1000 to 3000 meters, in foothills and mountains. >>
>>PS: They may be more adaptable than I realize too. After all, I have to consider where my pair came from, and their latitude and ele. were quite high. Later...TC
>>

This is a correction to the reference of Schulz ('96). Schulz said they live at elevations of 100 to 3000 meters. I've read that a dozen times and misread that important piece of info.

I've also rethought the question of, "What makes them cool adapted?" Probably saying high elevations and latitudes is the reason they are cool adapted is not the best way to put that. Maybe saying their life histories and behaviors show they are cool adapted is a better way. They most likely evolved in montane situations, but they also live in low elevation habitats, and adjust by being very secretive, and below ground in habits.

TC