ok well here is my story and any help would be great.... illinois department of natural resources tell me that i need an endangered species permit to have one. My response was why they were removed from the federal endangered species list in 1987 and then the guy on the other line tells me i need one because when their hides are sold it is hard to tell them (the hides) apart from other crocodilians that are endangered. so my reply was well i am not in the business of alligator hides and he said it didn't matter so at that point i knew there was no winning this argument and that he was completely wrong that i obviously did not need an endagred species permit to keep and animal that was not endagered. So then I heard about this thing that illinois has called the dangerous animal act.. which says i can not keep wild cats, dogs (such as wolves, bear coyotes and stuff. then it goes on to say that you can not keep venomous and life threatening reptiles.... ok so what the hell is considered a life threatening reptile. So the illinois departmetn of ag. is the one set forth to unforce this so i call them and guess what NO ONE there even ever heard of this or even knew what i was talking about. So they told me to call the dnr again and the guy i talked to this time told me that he thought they were ok to keep up to 4 ft snoot to vent but he told me to call back the department of ag. so after 4 hours on the phone i am a little closer to the answer than before so as a last ditch effort i call the department of ag back and then after being transferred a million times i get some guy on the phone who says "no they are illegal in illinous they pasted a law about that 2 years ago" then when i pressed him for information about the law and where i could find information about it he said i had no business keeping one as a pet anyways and hung up on me.... so now i turn to my fellow herpers for the real answers.
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Help on crocodilian laws in illinois
Replies (23)
"The Illinois Dangerous Animals Act (reference: IL CS 720-585) specifically prohibits the keeping of any poisonous or life-threatening reptile. Although no definition of what constitutes a life-threatening reptile is included in this regulation, Illinois currently considers any adult (over six feet in length) constricting snake and all crocodilians to be life-threatening. "
Found on the following page: http://chicagoherp.org/laws/levell.htm
Ok so then it is my understanding that I can keep them without permits until they reach 6 ft?? Ok so if that is the case then why do the people who make these laws and are set forth to enforce them no nothing? Ok so what are the regulations on selling the babies in illinois?
I read it as all constricting snakes with an adult size over 6 feet are illegal. All crocodilians are illegal (regardless of size).
if that is the case then my question still stands why don't the people who make these rules or are set out to enforce them even know what the answer is??? And wasn't Levels last book published in like 95??? I think some of those regulations may be out of date.
Unfortunately, I do not know the answers to your questions. I would suggest that you take the Illinois code section, Illinois Dangerous Animals Act - IL CS 720-585 and start your search there.
John is correct about what it says, it pacificly says "all crocodilians" .... but read down into the permit section, it does say "The keeping of crocodilians is prohibited except by permit" which means they do have some type of permiting system.
Illinois can not "legal" concider any crocodilian a endangered species of Illinois as no crocodilian naturaly originats there!
Illinois has no legal power to regulate US Fish and Wildlife laws, most crocodilians including alligators are provided protection under US law ... US LAW NOT ILLINOIS LAW!!
Illinois only has the power to regulate ownership or ban ownership ... and im quit sure its a regulate matter and permits are available
Try looking thought Illinois DRN, Fish and wildlife, etc.. websites to see what you can find in writing!! if you have no luck with that call around to some Zoo's in Illinois and ask to speak the Reptile Curator or someone in the reptile department ... they should know the regulations
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Native and Exotic Species
The Illinois Dangerous Animals Act (reference: IL CS 720-585) specifically prohibits the keeping of any poisonous or life-threatening reptile. Although no definition of what constitutes a life-threatening reptile is included in this regulation, Illinois currently considers any adult (over six feet in length) constricting snake and all crocodilians to be life-threatening.
Captive Maintenance Regulations Review
The following is a brief review of the restrictions on the possession of amphibians and reptiles included among Illinois' regulations.
Endangered and threatened species may not be possessed except by perimit.
The possession limit for native amphibians and reptiles is 16 of each species.
The keeping of all venomous reptiles is prohibited except by permit.
The keeping of crocodilians is prohibited except by permit.
Any constricting snake over six feet in length may not be possessed without permit.
(b above see Native Wildlife Regulations). (c, d and e above see Captive Maintenance Regulations).
From the website, it doesnt mention crocodilian, a small crocodilian say a dwarf caiman even of adult size would not constitute a life threatening animal, as animals concidered dangerous by the law are named individualy or as a type: "poisonous"
According to this regulation a crocodilian would be legal, unless it was at a size whic could be concidered life threatening to a human ... a crocodilain under 4ft would in no way be concidered life threatening to a human by any expert in my opinion
CRIMINAL OFFENSES
(720 ILCS 585/) Illinois Dangerous Animals Act.
(720 ILCS 585/0.1) (from Ch. 8, par. 240)
Sec. 0.1. As used in this Act, unless the context otherwise requires:
"Dangerous animal" means a lion, tiger, leopard, ocelot, jaguar, cheetah, margay, mountain lion, lynx, bobcat, jaguarundi, bear, hyena, wolf or coyote, or any poisonous or life‑threatening reptile.
"Owner" means any person who (a) has a right of property in a dangerous animal, (b) keeps or harbors a dangerous animal, (c) has a dangerous animal in his care, or (d) acts as custodian of a dangerous animal.
"Person" means any individual, firm, association, partnership, corporation, or other legal entity, any public or private institution, the State of Illinois, or any municipal corporation or political subdivision of the State.
(Source: P.A. 84‑28.)
(720 ILCS 585/1) (from Ch. 8, par. 241)
Sec. 1. No person shall have a right of property in, keep, harbor, care for, act as custodian of or maintain in his possession any dangerous animal except at a properly maintained zoological park, federally licensed exhibit, circus, scientific or educational institution, research laboratory, veterinary hospital or animal refuge in an escape‑proof enclosure.
(Source: P.A. 84‑28.)
(720 ILCS 585/2) (from Ch. 8, par. 242)
Sec. 2. It is no defense to a violation of Section 1 that the person violating such Section has attempted to domesticate the dangerous animal. If there appears to be imminent danger to the public, any dangerous animal found not in compliance with the provisions of this Act shall be subject to seizure and may immediately be placed in an approved facility. Upon the conviction of a person for a violation of Section 1, the animal with regard to which the conviction was obtained shall be confiscated and placed in an approved facility, with the owner thereof to be responsible for all costs connected with the seizure and confiscation of such animal. Approved facilities include, but are not limited to, a zoological park, federally licensed exhibit, humane society, veterinary hospital or animal refuge.
(Source: P.A. 84‑28.)
(720 ILCS 585/3) (from Ch. 8, par. 243)
Sec. 3. Any person violating this Act shall be guilty of a Class C misdemeanor. Each day of violation constitutes a separate offense.
In the event the person violating this Act is a corporation or partnership, any officer, director, manager or managerial agent of the partnership or corporation who violates this Section or causes the partnership or corporation to violate this Section is guilty of a Class C misdemeanor.
(Source: P.A. 84‑28.)
(720 ILCS 585/4) (from Ch. 8, par. 244)
Sec. 4. This Act shall be known and may be cited as the "Illinois Dangerous Animals Act".
(Source: P.A. 84‑28.)
Thank you see it says nothing about illinois considering all crocodilians being dangerous in that law??? It is all to confusing to me. I will just let my lawyer handle it if they ever come knockin.
Thanks everyone for your help
below is just my opnion, observations and nothing more Im not offering legal advice, seek a lawyer if you want some,
what is being sited above is some thing some guy put in a book along time ago when he tried to compile a list and description of all the state laws(all 50 states) to my understanding that is actually a regulation the IL dept of ag using is regulating pet stores with, but has no bearing on private ownership, I have no idea why the chicago herp societies website is so out of date, I do know my maywer has looked into it and that is not the state law
the Il dangerous act was copied above poisonous or life threating, thats all there is on reptiles, as far as crocs and large snakes people vs fabing was an Il supreme court case, the guy had 15ft burms and a 4ft gator, the supreme court decided antyhing 15 is able to kill and thus is illegal, how my lawyer explained it to me is this, since its a supreme court case the opinion has bearing within other courts within IL, so no other court is going to overrule that desicion and say an 18ft snake is legal, however another court may decide a 12ft snake is able to kill a human and is thus illegal, keep in mind he had 15ft burms not 12fters, so 12ft burms were not the case here, some other court may decide 12ft is also able to kill
as far as crocs he had a 4ft gator, they decided the 4ft gator was not able to kill a human being and there for did not violate the law becasue it wasnt life threating, keep it mind it was a 4ft gator so anything 4ft or less is legal, say you got popped with a 5ft gator, the court could go either way, technically anything over 4ft is still in question, so if you got popped with anything over 4ft your in a grey area because there is no actually size limit set to what size gator could kill, only that fabings gator couldnt
as far as the protected species thing, TX a state that gators are native to just revised their gator hunting season and regs on how you can take them and made it easier to hunt them, FL did the same thing a while back so where does IL(a state they are not native to) get they are endangered god only knows, I do know a couple people that the DNR wrote tickets for having gators(endagered species, protected or whatever) and when the people hired lawyers and went to fight the tickets in court the tickets got dropped,
Jason Im telling you get the shelly the reprter to call them and see what they have to say about it, im curious as to what their responce will be when they know it will be aired out in the media
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law
You know the number one attacker of people in MOST all states.. dogs..the number one usually is a pit bull.. but you cant keep a somewhat harmless croc( harmless to and extent of size)
oh well... keep voting people!!
"You know the number one attacker of people in MOST all states.. dogs.."
People are the number one attacker of people.
Animal wise of attacks are dogs.. im not talking about people..
everyone knows that
Yea, I know.
The number of dog bites is amazing. From the following site: http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html#Thedogsmostlikelytobite
"There is a dog bite epidemic in the United States. There are almost 5 million victims annually -- about 2% of the entire population. 800,000 need medical attention. 1,000 per day need treatment in hospital emergency rooms. Between 15 and 20 die per year."
But if you outlawed dogs, you'd never be re-elected, and as we all know, that's the number one job of a legislator. By outlawing crocs and large snakes they look like heros to everyone but a rather insignificant segment of the population. I'm afraid the "dog-bite" defense doesn't work.
I know "someone" who bought a caiman from a New York State animal control officer. After he confiscated the illegal caiman he then SOLD IT!!
Not only that I then saw the same NYS officer, about a year later, in a picture on the classifeds here selling 2 american alligators.
I guess there's a bad apple in every barrel.
The deal with the hides pertains to caimans - common, brown and yacare. This is all on the USFWS website and is why the above mentioned caimans can't be imported or transported across state lines without proper paperwork. The only place the fed regulates American alligators is in the 13 states that they naturally occur in. The person you are talking with is ignorant.
A few years ago a person who used to post here had the same issue with Illinois. In Lincoln to be specific. He was told the same thing as you and the authorities confiscated his two alligators. He was finally able to get custody again, but not before they killed one of the gators due to improper husbandry. Unfortunately this person moved to Florida and I haven't heard from him in a long while. Otherwise, he would have been a good source of imformation for you.
Good luck.
yeah that is the problem the only people i can get ahold of are people who have no idea what i am talking about and when he said i needed an endagered species permit i just fell off my chair... they have been off the endagered species list since 1987 almost 20 years. Is it like this everywhere these people don't know what they are talking about?
Well,hello.I was also told an endangereg species permit was needed for an alligator I once possesed.Make a long story short I sold it unknowingly to a DNR officer,and did not know it was illegal to posses,I bought this at a show and assumed it was legal.In addition all I have to say about there ignorance is as follows,I did deals with a couple DNR undercover officers.These were a couple of the most uninformed,uneducated humans I have ever dealt with.They asked me about captive care,on a few animals I sold them.When I got busted I asked them were the animals go to now that they purchased from me, they told me a Biologist,well come to find out the biologist was one of the officers I dealt with,he was the same one who asked me how to probe a snake.Hes the one who asked me about all kinds of captive care on snakes,,ohhhhh ya and hes the one who bought me sick animals to look at,gotta love them biologist.OHHHHH ya and to they guy who said dog bites are more frequent and "pitbulls" are usually in the lead,,well your wrong look at dog bite statistics,usually labs are close to first and usually have several deaths due to secondary infections and problems.Pitbulls generally get it over with and do cause lots of damage but lets not blame the dogs,lets blame the humans who caused these animals to act this was,seriously Einsteins pitbull or Mikeal J.Foxs pitbulls never hurt anyone.But good luck with your search for answers.
interesting!! what was the charge and what was the out come of the case ??
kind of funny because the american alligator is not a endangered species as classified by US Fish and Wildlife and the american alligator is not native to Illinois so Illinois can not list the american alligator as engangered under state law.
Yes but they also told me they where on the endangered species list when i called them and i said almost word for word what you said and they seemed to have no clue.
n/p
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
