Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a pair cooling since December and I'm starting to bring them out.

My "Mountain Kings" book recommends the following steps for breeding:

1 bring the male out a week before the female.
2 keep the male at 72 degrees or below after he is out(no mention of temps for the female).
3 Put them together after they have both been out a month(no mention of the first shed).

Do all the Mountain king breeders here agree with this for Durangos??

Thanks.
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

No I disagree. These are just my opinions but I have breed greeri many times. After brumation males can get up to 80 or 82 but they need cooler nights in the high 60's to low 70's in order to maintain fertility. Extended and constant high temps are what reduces fertility. Do not wait for any sheds to breed. Begin introducing the male to the female right out of hibernation. If she does not let him breed then separate and try again in a couple days. No harm if she is not ready but in my experience greeri lose very little weight in hibernation and females may begin ovulating almost as soon as they come out of brumation. I have heard from others that they breed after the females first shed but the only two times I have got duds since 1999 is when I waited until after the females first shed to breed.
As far as bringing males up earlier I have never tried that but I don't see how it could hurt as long as they get the cold nightime temps.
Oh ya I almost forgot I also got duds from a female last year that was bred before her first shed but she was young and it was her first year breeding and whatever I am doing alot of my females of all species throw duds on thier first breeding.

Same goes for what Aron mentioned. I have to admitt to being very surprised how little is known about reptile reproductive biology after all these years, so first forgive me about being surprised.

I guess its all about caresheet understanding and not the actual understanding of want your doing.

Yes, prolonged exposed to higher temps will kill off the active sperm. But you must understand, prolonged expose to unsuitable cold temps also kills off the sperm and atrophys the gonads.(bad winter)

So yes, if you overcooled your male snake, you must give him a head start to regain his health before he can produce healthy sperm. Its not about breeding, its simply about a healthy male. A normal healthy male produces normal healthy sperm. If you kept the male in normal temps(for him, not necessarily what keepers provide) he will have viable sperm year around.

Yes if brought out at the same time, a female will cycle faster then the male can regain his health. This will result in infertiles, at least on the first clutch.

Back to the other end. If you expose your male to temps consistantly to high, that stress will kill the sperm as well. Its not about a certain temp. Its about not being capable of escaping higher temps. For instance, male kings(montane or otherwise) will use temps up to 100F, but only for short times. Then they will return to lower temps(55 to 65F) the majority of the time. This is normal. This is what "they" do naturally. They choose between cool and warm temps on a daily basis for as long as they can. Once they can no longer choose, then it effects their health, in nature or otherwise.

The reality is, both sexes will benefit from temps they pick, over temps we force on them.

About sheds and cycling. Again, its nasty poor understanding to think of a female cycling by a certain shed. Its again a caresheet mentality and not about the understanding of reproductive biology. A female becomes receptive and will copulate volunteerily when her ovum drops from her overies. This may or may not have anything to do with a shed. For sure, it can, and if you keep the exact same conditions, it can be repetitive. But why do that? all you have to do is watch the female(isn't that one reason we keep them as captives, to watch them?) The lower third of her body will slightly enlarge with fat, just before she cycles. Then very shortly after that, the ovum drop and align in the oviducts. You can easily learn to palpate females and feel the ovum. At this time, they are ready willing and able to copulate. Once these, strings of pearls, enlarge, its getting to late. So as soon as you "see" the hind end enlarge, expose her to her male of choice. (they do have a choice) once the ovum drop and start to enlarge, the female forgets all about choice and will mate a doorknob(any old male will do) of any species. To learn to palpate is very very very very easy. Much easier then say, making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Remember, these snakes(specially montane kings) spend their life squeezing in tiny cracks, So you think them crawling thru your fingers will harm something?

Learning to observe the hindend swelling is fun and important. It allows you to understand and participate in breeding and keeping. Not just blindly following instructions.

All snakes do this. And yes, there is a slight range of temps. Montane males can and will loose sperm at lower temps then low elevation kings, but its only by a few degrees. In all reality, if you allow any kind of king, a range of temps, that range of temps can be exactly the same and will work exceedingly well. Oh say, 55F to 100F, but 55F to 85F will work too, but not so well. Much better growth and recuperation(after laying) when allowed to reach higher choices.

How you choose these temps is based more on your conditions then of what the snakes actually require. For instance, if your snakes are in a garage or outbuilding, you may want to use the lower highs as a safty factor. It 100f hot areas will jump to high very quickly if your experience a hot day. If you live in northern areas, and the snakes are kept in a controlled room or area(basement, etc) then you can offer better high temps, and enjoy better results. This is far easier to maintain then say, 82.4 for extented periods and its far more natural(what the snakes behaviorally understand)......

So yes, what these other folks said is not wrong, but its only right to their particular set of circumstances and conditions, and my or may not wrong for you. I suppose, you want something that will work for you? and learn how it works, so if by chance you move and have a different set of conditions, you will know whats actually going on and be able to quickly adapt and continue having success. Cheers

Thanks for the detailed replies.They were cooled in a wine cooler set at 50(I'm in Florida),and the temps seemed to range around 49-55.

I'm have the cooler set now at 65,it's highest seting,with the female lower,so she is probably at around 61 and he's at 67 or so.

Unfortunately,the house is set at 77 but that room ranges between 72 at night and 75 during the day.

So what seems best based on all the above info,is to put the male at room temps in other warmer rooms(77-82)during the day and back in the cooler at night(67)? Do you agree with this?

But do I keep the female in that room or the warmer rooms except for when I put them together?

If I am confused,please let me know.
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

i bring my male and female greeri up at the same time and hibernate/brumate them at the same temp-50 degrees for 3 months. i heat my room up from the 50 degree brumation temp to temps in the mid 80's over a period of 7-10 days letting the temp drop back to the mid 70's at night. the only thing i do different is i keep my males on the lower part of the rack closer to the floor and my females higher up. this gives them about a 3-5 degree difference in temperature both day and night. i have consistently produced greeri with this recipe for over 10yr.s. troy

The way I do it is they are in my room and the ambiant temps naturally range from about 64 to 74 but occasionally temps get into the high 80's. I keep all my montane males on the bottom rack and their heat tape is set to about 77. The montane females and low elevation species I keep on the top rack and the heat tape is set to 82-84. I introduce the males into the females cages about 2 days in then separate them back to the bottom rack for about 2 days. Because I am using racks I can't offer them alot of choice but I do offer them variation of temps.
In all my cages the snakes do have enough room to escape the hot spot and get to room temps anytime they want.
Later in the year I turn up all the heat tape in both the bottom and top racks to about 84-86 and I never try to double clutch, mainly because I don't want any more mouths to feed.

Excellent post Frank. I did not know that about cool temps can harm male sperm too.

If you think about it, its only common sense.

What we see in nature with breeding groups or pairs(we see a lot of pairs) The individuals that are going to produce in the follow spring summer, pick areas where they have access to higher temps then non breeders.

Also some springs, the males appear out and basking long before the females. The problem is, I have not tried to correlate it to the type of winter. I get the feeling, the harsher the winter, the more the males need a head start.

Around here, we have a huge varaition in winters. Some are cold(for here) some are warm(very few freezing nights) This year, the coldest nights have been this week and the snakes are already up and active. Cheers

Thank you, Frank!
Todd Hughes