Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I everyday come across the word sunburst,I know that it's not a genetic pattern although it can be inherited.So when can we name one Sunburst?I have seen several pictures of them through the net and mine looks as beatiful as them,is he one or not?
I would appreciate some details on this subject

Someone is bound to jump me about this, but...as a newby and avid reader, it appears that the term "Sunburst" Veiled is a non-genetic and therefore, non-reproducible color variation. "Sunburst" males do not automatically breed like off-spring. I've never even read that they deliver more than random "Sunburst" off-spring. the term "Sunburst" just refers to a Veiled chameleon exhibiting the vibrant color variations that differentiate them from other Veiled chams. You could very well have a "Sunburst". I find ALL Veiled's beautiful, but I have to admit, it is a shame that the "Sunburst" trait is not reproducible, because they are extraordinarily beautiful chameleons. OK guys, let me have it! Diane
-----

dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago

It's marketing, that's it.

"Sunburst" referrs to veiled chameleons that have a lot of orange
coloration - nothing special.

The guy at Seaside Reptiles made up the name(s) to improve sales.
"Sunburst" for high orange
"Lemon Yellow" for High Yellow
"Turquoise" for ones with bluish color

It's coloration, and therefore completly genetic and inheritable.

It is NOT a special mutation or anything, just coloration. It varies from
animal to animal - but mate two orangy veileds, and you'll get orangy
babies!

My male veiled has a ton of orange in his background color - more
orange than green. His son is the same way. "he must be a sunburst!"
Well, he's also got huge yellow stripes... "so he's Lemon Yellow!!!"

No, he's a veiled with bright yellow stripes and a lot of orange
background...

It's just a marketing ploy - similar to, (but without the historical and
geographic legitamacy) panther morphs. We could mix panthers just
fine - but we tend to see them "kept pure", for MANY reasons, one of
them being that people want to buy "pure" locales. If a cross was found
to produce animals with an exceptional coloration, you'd start to see
people selling that cross. As of now, none of the crosses seem to equal
the "pure" breeds. It's marketing, plain and simple.

Ok,that's fine with veileds but I cannot understand the diversity of the panther species regarding to colour.I don't want to discuss inheritance since we are not scientists and genetics are highly controversial but what happens in nature?Judging from the rest of reptiles panthers with different morfs and colours should occur from different places of madagascar and they evolved their colours through natural selection over the centuries to fulfil a purpose usually to help them blend with the surroundings.If this is not the case then I cannot explain the diversity if several forms coexist in the same area.

We are not scientists?>>>>

Speak for yourself! Hehe.

Color variation in chameleons is very complex. I would make an educated guess that natural selection favors camoflauge in most species. However, I think (emphasis on THINK!)the color patterns in males of "display" species is a result of an aspect of natural selection: sexual selection.

I have not done any real studies, so it's purely hypothetical, but it's based on fact.

Panther and male veiled males will put oout a bright, contrasting display to communicate - either territorial display, or attracting/impressing a female. It coudl be that, in the case with panthers, certain environmental conditions have made certain color patterns more visible. It could also be that the females tend to prefer males with a certain color. The genes for preference are passed along, and soon enough, a disproportionate amount of females in a given locale favor a certain color. the males that have that color get more females. It just takes a few generations to show up.

That's the neat thing about sexual selection - it's usually linked to a desireable trait, but it doesnt' need to be. Sometimes it leads to ridiculous ornaments - like birds of paradise, peacocks, and maybe some chameleons. In the case of birds, females choose males that can - despite some totally useless, handicap of plumage, survive and keep territory. It's proof of a good male - despite all those feathers and junk, he's still alive and well. Maybe it's a similar thing with panthers?

I tend to think it's a little different.

It could be because of the males, not the females. Brighter animals might actually keep the duller ones away. A drab, gray and green colored male pardalis might simply stay away from a male that, despite being smaller, is bright blue with red stripes. If that is the case, I think that might explain the bright coloration - sometimes, sexual selectioon is a greater selective force than straight up, straightforward "natural selection". It could even be as simple as the brighter ones being more visible to females, therefore getting more mates.

Same deal with veileds - the bigger, brighter you are, the more females will see you . Also, the more other males will see you, and avoid you and your territory.

Could also be why we don't see too many small species that are perpetually bright, like panthers and veileds. the bright colors mean they'll get eaten by birds too often for it to be of any use. Not until you are big enough to be ignored by most birds does the color become a benifit in other ways...

For a parallel, look at baby calyptratus and pardalis - it takes them a long time to color up. Obviously, if their adult coloration was a benifit to them in hiding and camo, they'd have it as a baby.

Hi Eric,
looks like we were posting at the same time

I think you have some valid points. It is not uncommon for males (birds/lizards/fish/humans) to throw caution to the wind and sacrifice safety to impress the ladies.
And this behavior is perpetuated by the females, because they fall for these 'machos'.

Sexual selection is such a fun topic

From what I've heard, the different panther morphs all live in different areas with little to no overlap. They are actually named after the area/town/island where they are found.
On the border between two locales crossbreeding will occur, but not much and the reproductive fitness of cross breds seems to be lower than that of pure breds.
What could reduce the amount of crossbreeding is mate selection by the females. Ambanja females may only recognise the colorpatterns of Ambanja males and ignore the courtship attempts of other males. Don't know if this is true for panther chams, but it is a known strategy in some African cyclids (fish).

(btw: Hi everyone! long time lurker here some may recognize me from other forums)

I'd love to see all these different Veiled morphs/colourations/terms all displayed side by side. I just rarely see much of a difference. A veiled is a veiled in my opinion, and they have their own neat patterns in place of the neat colours other species have.

I should take some photos of mine. Feisty buggers arnt they?
-----
CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

Well that;s it - a veiled is a veild. Some have more or less of each color, some are as small as 12", some as big as 25", but they all have the same colors - just a different proportion of each, and a slight difference in pattern. Some have wider yellow bands, some have many narrow bands, some have a few wide bands, some lots of blue spots, some very few... variation of a typical color and pattern.

With pardalis, some have colors that just do not appear at all on other individuals, and in combinations that vary considerably. Some are 100% pink or red, some are 100% blue. some are blue and red, some are blue and yellow... With panthers, the pattern is more uniform, but the colors are all over the place.