Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anybody out there really good at identifying Texas Rat snakes and black rat snakes?

Seem like an easy thing to do, I bet, but I am going to add in a nice complication. How can you tell the difference between a Texan rat snake and a black rat snake if both are Leucistic? The wild forms of both snakes are pretty distinctive for identification but does there exist other features not relating to color or pattern that would make it possible to tell them apart if both are leucistic?

I have been checking various pictures of both species in an effort to determine if my leutistic rat snake is in fact a black rat or a Texan rat snake. THanks for any and all help.

is to put them side by side, squint really hard, and then flip a coin....

really though.... if you've kept up with the posts regarding the two lately, you'll see that it is nearly impossible to tell the two apart visually - that is, if in fact you believe they are two different snakes.....

byron.d

If it was sold to you as a Texas Rat, it most likely IS. If it was sold to you as a Black Rat, well, there's been plenty of debate on this one. Which points to TWO of the reasons that I would be more likely to purchase a leucistic Texas Rat. 1. With such minor differences, if any, why pay more? and 2. With a leucistic Texas Rat, I would be more confident regarding what I have. IF a true leucistic black ratsnake does exist (which is the debate, and I think there's at least a pretty good chance that it might), then there's still a very high probability that any given ALLEGED leucistic black rat is still part texas. There's little doubt that even if one was found (in Ohio, the story goes) there were still plenty of folks working on "creating" one by using the existing leucistic Texas Rats. So...that would always leave me wondering what I had. So...Heads it's Black, Tails it's TX Duffy

I suggest a scale count.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

The scale count is the same for all forms of Elaphe obsoleta.

I had not realized there was heavy debate on the actual existance of leucistic black rat snakes etc. This is my first and only rat snake (aside from corn snakes which are also known as red rat snakes). What I have is either one or the other, I don't have both (see pic a few posts down under my PH nic...) It was giving to me by a friend for free, as his career will be forcing him to be away for several months and possibly a year abscence not long after his return.

Anyway, I just can't remember if he said it was a Texan rat snake, or black rat snake, only thing i knew for sure, is it is leucistic. Thing is, I recently found out (at my local reptile association meeting) black rat snakes are local and protected, so having one in my possession could mean a fine etc... As my friend isn't currently available to confirm which rat species it actually is, was hoping there was a fairly easy way to identify it, besides normal coloration (as it doesn't have normal coloration LOL). I had hoped a scale count would be possible to tell the difference..but from reading the responses to my post, scale count cannot be used. If there really isn't any way to determine visually between the two species and I really don't feel my friend is an expert, he probably will be going by what the breeder/petstore (not sure where he bought this snake) told him. The fact leucistic black rats are not known to really exist or tend to have a much higher price tag or just not common, I am under the opinion, a leucistic texas rat is most likely what I now have. THis works good for me as Texan Rat snakes are not native to the area i live, thus are not protected or prohibited in any way, shape or form.

Thanks for all your feedback. I plan to still see if I can find a local expert on rat snake identification and confirm beyond a doubt just what kind of rat snake I have, to be on the safe side. I have no problems getting a permit to own this snake, as it is very obviously not wild caught nor capable of living in the wild at all.

Since it has been mentioned that this particular topic has been discussed in this forum in the past, I will see if I can find some of those posts, to get a better understanding of the issues.

Breed it to a normal phase and take some pics. Then you will be able to tell. The F1s from breeding a Leucistic to a normal are different with each of the snakes. Email me if you want to know more.

Dewey Vasses

Bechtel in his studies of leucism in Texas Rat Snakes found that the trait was autosomal recessive. He also studied the trait in Alligators and Axolotis.

He found that the skin of leucistic animals cannot support the two basic types of pigment cells.

You seem to describe a trait that shows incomplete dominance. This begs the question, how do you know that the leucistic rat snake that was breed was not a carrier for a gene that was not phenotipically expresses due to the expression of the leucistic trait?

Who did the study and where were the results published? Do you have a photo of one of the F1's so that we can see what one looks like?

Respectfully,
Rick

Black Rat F1

Below is a link to a snake for sale that is said to be a cross between a leucistic Texas Rat Snake and a Black Rat Snake. It looks a lot like your leucistic Black Rat and WT Black Rat Snake cross. Texas Rats come in a lot of natural color morphs. I see nothing from your photo that excludes it from being part Texas Rat Snake. Would love to see a picture of this snake in 2008 when it has its adult coloring.

Thank you for taking the time to post the photo. How many of these crosses have you done? How many leucistics do you have in your breeding stock? Do tho have both Black and Texas leucistic Rats?
Link

Do you live in Ohio? Anyway, if black rats are local and protected where you live (especially if you are here in Ohio and they expect you to PITT tag 'em)...Then CLEARLY you have a Texas Ratsnake, if you get my drift. In all liklihood that is actually what you have. And if anyone ever checks, and all you have are corns & a leucistic ratsnake, I really don't think you will have any trouble at all.

I actually live in Ontario, Canada. Apparently black rats do range into southern Ontario and thus are protected. But from all my reading in past posts about leucistic black rats and leucistic Texas rats, I do suspect i have a Texas Rat. breeding it to a female texas rat snake certainly will reveal if the offspring come out looking like typical texas rat snakes or more like Texan/black rat crosses. However, unless I buy an adult female, it will be a few years before I can prove it out.

In any case, even if my place is raided and my animals inspected, I don't think anybody could be sure my leucistic rat snake is a black rat if I tell them it's Texan, at least not without genetical testing. As it is not a dangerous snake, I highly doubt they will waste their time. It obviously isn't a wild caught animal.

Thanks all for your help and insight. Now I am going to go double check the care requirements for Texan Rat snakes to see if there is any difference between BLack rat and Texan rat care.

It seems to work for them in the wild, I am sure they smell different!
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I wonder if the scent in the scent glands smells differently between the two?
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

one way i always thought you could distinguish between the 2 subs was that texas rats usually have gray heads like this one......

I don't know about scent, but one tastes more like chicken!
I just don't remember which one.
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Sorry, That was foul...
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Hey Bill, great looking Gulf Hammocks. What about some photos of a Deckerts Rat Snake?

Hey Rick, - Working on those pics.
Bad news – worse news:
Bad = I lost my inexpensive digital camera last year on a trip to Texas.
Worse = it was my wife’s camera for taking family shots!

Good news – bad news:
Good news = I finished a roll of slides.
Bad news = They must now be sent off for development.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Hi Bill,

This summer I plan to spend some time on the Outer Banks and see if I can’t get some photos of Elaphe obsolete parallela. I know I can’t collect one, but I don’t think I can get in hot water with the park service for taking a few pictures.

Did you see the photos I posted a few days ago of my Gulf Hammock. His stripes are not as bold as the ones on your snake, but they are there. Next year, I need to find a nice gray colored one to breed my male with.

Rick

Be sure to post pictures if you get to see a rat snake on the outer banks.

On the Gulfhammock issue, I hadn't seen your animal posted below.... Looks Good...

As you know williamsi is not considered a subspecies any more and there is quite a large variance in them: 15 miles East of where they were first named, they yellow up fairly quickly (Marion County), Crystal river (20 miles) and south they start loosing their blotches, north of the Suwannee River they begin to loose their stripes (by the town of Perry, they're gone), but even in the heart of the traditional GH range, there is variance!
This is a terrible picture from 35 years ago, but you get the idea. I captured these two animals within 200 yards of each other and within 500 yards of where my present day captive colony originated.
Obviously, if I could post a good picture of the stripe-less animal, most here would identify it as a pure Gray Rat Snake.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Here are pictures of both my snake from "true" Gulf Hammock stock and my partially striped Gray Rat sisters that as far as I know did not come from stock out of that area.

The top one is the Gray and the bottom two are of the Gulf Hammock.