Reptile & Amphibian Forums

how does everyone here feel about hybrids. not trying to start some kind of war here, just curious. I myself dont really like them. I think we shoud stick to naturally occurring get togethers. Im still on the fence about creamsicles though. They do cross ranges slightly dont they? Dont some candy canes have creamsicle blood in them? Im definitely not a fan of jungle corns though. Okay, whats everbody got to say.

ep
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Occupants not paying rent:
1.1. balls
1.1 corns
1 everglades rat
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
2.1 cats

:

Natually ocurring specimens certainly have evolutionary charm to their coloration.

And, hybrids sometimes have eccentric patterns that would get them picked off in 5 seconds in the outside world.

But the fact that certain varieties of snakes can interbreed at all means that they are diverged from a single species in the not too distant past (perhaps following the last ice age). You don't see pythons and boas mixing because they are an example of convergent evolution (too different populations and species evolving to similar forms to meet similar demands).

Interbreeding species that happen to have different names is no more unnatural than selectively breeding for desirable characteristics.

You're only slightly more likely to find golden corns in the wild than king or milk crosses.

So, if you're against the ideas of hybrids you should probably be against the idea of all but the most basic morphs whether or not they have pure blood.

i am for hybrids. all the ones i own eat better and grow faster than any of my other snakes. and they look awesome. you can produce some patterns that wouldn't be possible otherwise. but what i am against is supercorns or anything that looks pure for that matter.

qroberts, you are right on target here. One thing that so many of the hybrid haters seem to forget (or intentionally dont mention) is that hybrids in overlap areas of colubrid species are not only known, but are not so uncommon. One often hears that hybrid breeders "trick" everything to get it to happen, but that is certainly not always the case. A great many jungles are produced just like corns or kings; by putting a male and a female together. The fact that hybrids (which we know are fertil most of the time) occur in nature, means that they are likely backbreeding to one species or the other, and thus any "pure" or "locality" animal could have hybrid origins. Just because it came from the wild does not exclude this possibilty and visual identification can most certainly not identify an obseleta thirty generations back in a gutatta line. A hybrid from the wild is much more natural than a morph from a plastic box.
BDR

Mr. Hollander, I am quite surprised by your response. As a person with a genetic background, the mere fact that these crosses can produce fertile offspring is shocking. It defies the Linaean classification system; that a "species" crossed to another "species" can not produce fertile offspring. In the domestic fowl, which your father worked with, it is well known that the hybrids of the four junglefowl show many problems and very, very low fertility, and then almost always only in males. Between red and green junglefowls, the number is around 1 male in 100 fertile, and yet a corn and a king can cross with 100% fertility, and this is sommething that is to be discouraged? Once a snake is taken into captivity it is no longer a "wild species". Such has been noted again and again by zoo workers; that captives change and are no longer like their wild counter parts. It is called domestication and while it may take thousands of years to achieve to the extent of domestic fowl or cattle, that is still what it is. I hesitate to think anyone is going to do a wild release program with motley lavender hypo corns. They are a domestic and have no more validity in regards to conservation or "purity" than any hybrid. They are for shoe boxzes only.
Further, these hybrids, for those with the interest and insight to actually research them rather than just have preconceived predjudices, are a doorway to the reconsideration of the Linaean system and the question of exactly what a "species" is.
Brian Reeder
Panoplia Geneticus

Wild caught snakes will soon be a thing of the past. I think Okeetee corns, Miami corns, California kings, etc are beautiful, each in its own different way. I do not want them all to disappear into a single generic hybridized population. Right now, there are rare breed associations trying to preserve various breeds of cattle, pigs, and chickens that otherwise would disappear. I don't want to see the same thing happen with reptiles.

Paul Hollander

>>Wild caught snakes will soon be a thing of the past. I think Okeetee corns, Miami corns, California kings, etc are beautiful, each in its own different way. I do not want them all to disappear into a single generic hybridized population. Right now, there are rare breed associations trying to preserve various breeds of cattle, pigs, and chickens that otherwise would disappear. I don't want to see the same thing happen with reptiles.
>>
>>Paul Hollander

This a recap/revision of a conversation I had in an earlier thread about hybrids and their threat to wild life.

I just don’t see how breeding hybrids in captivity can have a serious impact on wild life?
People breed hybrids, people breed pure stock.
The number of pure snakes bred every year, seriously out numbers the number of hybrids bred every year.
Notice these are all bred in captivity. Nothing to do with wild life.
Some people say, "oh no, what if some of these were released into the wild?"
Well, for the ones that would survive, which wouldn't be a large number to begin with, you would then have to figure how many would breed successfully. Even less.
Remember there is a very low survival rate of albinos and other “un-natural” morphs in the wild. Although not neccessarily albinos a lot of the hybrids stand out like sore thumbs.
They are too easily spotted by prey and predator.
Makes it even harder for these animals to survive and breed successfully
So, if this extremely small percentage of escaped or released hybrids was to breed in the wild it would have to be one species or the other which makes up the hybrid, right?
Especially considering the fact that locating their own species would be virtually impossible.
Let’s consider a hybrid as AB and it’s “parent” stock species A and species B
I guess with these species it would be a release of pheromones that would attract a mate.
If so, then the release of species A or species B pheromones would be as likely to attract a hybrid as AB pheromones.
It would also be more likely that A or B species would be more prevalent then AB hybrids. .
Especially in the normal scenarios where a hybrid may get loose here or there. There wouldn't even be another hybrid to breed with.
So, the offspring would then only be 25% whatever and 75% pure.
As these offspring spread out, some die, some survive and a few may breed successfully. As they mature the chances they would happen to breed with one of their own siblings would be extremely slim so you would expect them to breed with another pure specimen.
This now drops them down to only 12.5% whatever and 87.5% pure.
At this rate within 5 or 6 generations, the few that might survive and reproduce would be producing offspring that would be over 97% pure.
I just don't see the numbers supporting a serious impact to wild populations.
Someone would have to dump 100's to 1000's in a controlled environment to result in a devastating impact.
I also agree with what Kathy had to say.
If these hybrids could cause an impact to wild life then so would/could pure animals, maybe even moreso, such as some of the invasives species taking hold in some areas. A pure animal would probably have a better chance to survive.
They could be just as invasive as a hybrid.
So, in this vein how can hybrids be any worse then pure captive-bred animals?
Meaning, if you dislike hybrids because you feel they would have a serious impact on wild life then you would basically have to have the same disdain for any captive bred specimens, pure or hybrid.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

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My post was about the captive population. Without a continuous infusion of wild caught specimens, if anything is randomly breed to anything, then Okeetee corns, California kings, etc. will disappear into a single generic hybridized captive population. It happened with the European wisent and domestic cattle, and it is happening with Pryzewalski's horse and the domestic horse in Mongolia.

Paul Hollander

>>My post was about the captive population. Without a continuous infusion of wild caught specimens, if anything is randomly breed to anything, then Okeetee corns, California kings, etc. will disappear into a single generic hybridized captive population. It happened with the European wisent and domestic cattle, and it is happening with Pryzewalski's horse and the domestic horse in Mongolia.
>>

your exact words.....

"Wild caught snakes will soon be a thing of the past. I think Okeetee corns, Miami corns, California kings, etc are beautiful, each in its own different way. I do not want them all to disappear into a single generic hybridized population. Right now, there are rare breed associations trying to preserve various breeds of cattle, pigs, and chickens that otherwise would disappear. I don't want to see the same thing happen with reptiles."

That says wild caught snakes will soon be a thing of the past.
It does not say anything about captive populations.
sorry but I read what I read.
You might have meant it one way but I did not misread what you wrote.
And it doesn't explain how the wild populations will be desimated to a point where we will not be able to infuse new, wild blood into existing captive bloodlines.
Not only that but it doesn't explain how with the thousands of people breeding pure corns how hybrids are going to ruin the entire captive population of pure corns.
I just don't see the numbers backing this up.
Now if you want to say that locality specimans my loose their "locality" status that may be true but that has nothing to do with hybrids.
You take an okeetee from the hunt club and breed it to a normal from Florida you still get a pure corn snake. Not a locale specific okeetee anylonger but nothing to do with hybridization.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

>You might have meant it one way but I did not misread what you wrote.

Ok. What I wrote was not as clear as I thought.

>And it doesn't explain how the wild populations will be desimated to a point where we will not be able to infuse new, wild blood into existing captive bloodlines.

It's not necessary to decimate the wild populations. It's quite sufficient if state, federal, and international law makes it extremely difficult or impossible to get fresh wild caught stock.

>Not only that but it doesn't explain how with the thousands of people breeding pure corns how hybrids are going to ruin the entire captive population of pure corns.

When the breeders cross subspecies and species and neither buyers nor sellers keep records, even the pure stuff becomes suspect. The Indian pythons in the USA are pretty close to that point if not past it.

Infusing new wild caught stock into existing suspect bloodlines just makes more individuals in a suspect bloodline. To make a non-suspect bloodline requires starting from scratch with wild caught stock.

As for thinking that thousands of people breeding corns will keep the stock pure, that's true only if people try to keep them pure. All we need is enough people crossing in Great Plains rats and king snakes and common rats and gopher snakes, and the corns won't be pure.

The Titanic was believed to be unsinkable. But with enough water in her, down she went.

Paul Hollander

>>>thanks for the reply.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

I just don't see the numbers supporting your fears.
You don't see my reasoning as to why.

so, let's just hope people can act responsibly and learn to keep proper records.

We will never change each other's minds
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I was more for them a few years back. I of course like some of the snakes looks that come out. I just fear the impact on wildlife. And if you do not like hybrids, do you hate mutt dogs?

Just asking as I would say most people do not mind a mixed breed dog? But it has no impact on wildlife, and the breeding is in smaller groups and dogs are easier tracked. And as I write this I often said I fear the day we get into certifications of a snakes lineage, but now, as I write this, it may have to happen? I just hope if it is, it is done right. Maybe in 10 years we'll have home snake DNA kits connected to a PC card, software reads DNA and it tells you what the snake is. You may laugh, but I'm 47, when I was 20, if someone handed me a cell phone with internet, or better an X box, I would have thought aliens have landed.

No one is going to stop hybrids, so we better have a way to discern a hybrid from a "pure" snake.

And the aliens are among us, just ask Dale! ~
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Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
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tom

www.herpzilla.com

The problemw with this argument is the notion that all animals coming from the wild are going to be "pure" to begin with and thus, all have the same dna, but the study on obseleta showed that the clades do not run with the "sub-species" but rather run in line (up and down) from north to south. Thus, yellow rats in the same line as gray and black from that line are more genetically related than yellows from another line in the north/south clades, so that blows the "sub-species" thus "pure" argument all to heck. Further, the notion that hybrids should only go to f1 is counter-intuitive. First, we know they wont as people willbreed further in selection and secondly, the whole point to me is not to make "something that looks cool", but to study the dynamics of the genome of these so-called "genus and species" (which oddly enough and quite against Linaean system can produce fertile offspring). Finally, even further, I do agree that just taking the hybrid, say, back to corn and masking it as a corn, the real point in the hobby should be to create domestic lines of animals that look differently than either (any) of the parent types, and thus are as distinguishable from the "parent species" as a cochin is from a red junglefowl in the junglefowl/domestic fowl group.
BDR

I never said all animals are pure from the wild. Please do not say I said things I did not.

I do not thing man should change this that took nature 1000's of years to produce.

Mans knowledge has gotten him in trouble from day one, and is the only thing get him out of it too. The ultimate paradox.

My prediction is we will lose.

Our record is not to not to great. In fact it's 0 for as many as we have tried.
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Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

You will find that most people are against hybrids.

My personal reason why I don't like them is because I spend time in the field. When you do that, you come to appreciate how creatures (not just snakes) are adapted to live in their specific environments.

To take a corn snake and a California kingsnake - two species seperated by hundreds of miles, and having very different lifestyles - and cross them is, in my opinion, an insult to nature.

While the increase in keeping reptiles is a good thing, unfortunately many newcomers have never seen a snake outside of a deli cup at a reptile show. For this reason they think deli cups are perhaps a snake's natural environment and see no harm in mix-and-matching them.

I think that is a shame.

In addition, the vast majority of hybrids are ugly. Yes, I've seen some striking examples every now and then, but they are few and far between.

On of my favorite lines from Jurassic Park is when the Jeff Goldblum character says "You spent all this time asking 'can we do it,' but you never stopped to wonder 'SHOULD we do it.'"

Tim

P.S. - HerpZillA, all domestic dogs are the same species - they're not hybrids.

Third Eye

You always reply on my posts? Thats ok, I think I said what you said, from a more neutral position.

I've have not spent as much time as you herping I'm sure, but on a different topic, I spent many years fishing, and the idea of a 5 pound bass was a goal, then intergrades in bass made many southern state records go over 20 pounds.

OK, I was tangentizing. I do that at times. Hybrids are ok, IF you can keep them out of the wild. That will not happen. So just for that reason I have choicen not to do any hybrids. And I have thought of them. I think because of that carpet GTP crosses I have seen.

As for insulting nature. That is a vast topic. Pollution, high power lines, dams, ect ect. We've insulted nature from the moment we started to think. But I agree purposely making hybrids insults it in many ways. I have 2 parrots, both subspecies of the yellow front group. I believe a male and a female? One is in brooding behavior, but I do not allow them to be together unless I'm here. I don't want them to mate is 1.1.. And I'll admit 2-3 babies twice a year, at a value of $1000 per hand reared baby is a monitary temptation. But I won't do it. And oddly enough I like some of the hybrid macaws?

Somewhere in there is my point. I have this great ability to ramble on.

>>You will find that most people are against hybrids.
>>
>>My personal reason why I don't like them is because I spend time in the field. When you do that, you come to appreciate how creatures (not just snakes) are adapted to live in their specific environments.
>>
>>To take a corn snake and a California kingsnake - two species seperated by hundreds of miles, and having very different lifestyles - and cross them is, in my opinion, an insult to nature.
>>
>>While the increase in keeping reptiles is a good thing, unfortunately many newcomers have never seen a snake outside of a deli cup at a reptile show. For this reason they think deli cups are perhaps a snake's natural environment and see no harm in mix-and-matching them.
>>
>>I think that is a shame.
>>
>>In addition, the vast majority of hybrids are ugly. Yes, I've seen some striking examples every now and then, but they are few and far between.
>>
>>On of my favorite lines from Jurassic Park is when the Jeff Goldblum character says "You spent all this time asking 'can we do it,' but you never stopped to wonder 'SHOULD we do it.'"
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>P.S. - HerpZillA, all domestic dogs are the same species - they're not hybrids.
>>
>>Third Eye
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

I find it hard to beleave that all dogs are teh same species. Even if they say so.

Domestication of rats took 38 generations, as I have read, and they consider the domestic rat a different species?

A Newfoundland is a heck of a morph swing from chinese cresteds.

And my opinon counts a LOT. Zophobos counts may go down lol

tom
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Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

Even so dogs are dogs. Now wolfdog is a hybrid topic when it comes to canies. Dog/Dog mutts are like different colors of corns. Dog/Wolf is a true hybrid. And they come with a bunch of issues. I kept one for someone for awhile and the thing was not properly socilized. I was very glad when they took him back.

With that thought I say irrisponsible hybrid breeding is bad. Thing is is there responsible breeding? A question that each person has to decide on. I've a king and corns. Will I ever breed them? I'm not sure at this point, but I'd give it alot of thought and research before I would decide to atempt it. As things stand I have an image of spagetti in my mind. "slurp"!
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3.2 Ball python (Hoss, Little Man, Adam, Helen, and the new girl who gets named when she eats)
2.2 Corn snakes (Orlando and Legolas and the newbies)
0.1 King snake (Sidhe which sounds exactly like "she"
0.0.1 GTP (Kissy the Red)
1.1 Haitian Boa (Enkil and Akasha)

And bunches of furry pets

Even if you are responcible, you know others will not be. We received 2 large iguanas caught in the Cleveland Metro park system last summer. The year before the owner had to go catch a 4' caiman. You may have great intentions, even with that you may have mishaps. Ever have an excaped snake yet? crap happens.

Then there are those with no responsibility.

There is no real end to this topic. To many people do it, for the few on the border to make a difference.

>>Even so dogs are dogs. Now wolfdog is a hybrid topic when it comes to canies. Dog/Dog mutts are like different colors of corns. Dog/Wolf is a true hybrid. And they come with a bunch of issues. I kept one for someone for awhile and the thing was not properly socilized. I was very glad when they took him back.
>>
>>With that thought I say irrisponsible hybrid breeding is bad. Thing is is there responsible breeding? A question that each person has to decide on. I've a king and corns. Will I ever breed them? I'm not sure at this point, but I'd give it alot of thought and research before I would decide to atempt it. As things stand I have an image of spagetti in my mind. "slurp"!
>>-----
>>3.2 Ball python (Hoss, Little Man, Adam, Helen, and the new girl who gets named when she eats)
>>2.2 Corn snakes (Orlando and Legolas and the newbies)
>>0.1 King snake (Sidhe which sounds exactly like "she"
>>0.0.1 GTP (Kissy the Red)
>>1.1 Haitian Boa (Enkil and Akasha)
>>
>>And bunches of furry pets
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

Agreed. Like with that wolfdog. Those people wern't responsible.
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3.2 Ball python (Hoss, Little Man, Adam, Helen, and the new girl who gets named when she eats)
2.2 Corn snakes (Orlando and Legolas and the newbies)
0.1 King snake (Sidhe which sounds exactly like "she"
0.0.1 GTP (Kissy the Red)
1.1 Haitian Boa (Enkil and Akasha)

And bunches of furry pets

No herpzilla, you were right. In fact, the Inuits and the Celts often tied out their "dogs" to be bred by wild wolves to improve the lines. Dog s are nothing but domestic canus and the two are not even distinguishable genetically as anything more than mild regional variation.
If you would like to read more about the domestication of the dog go to my website.
BDR
Panoplia Geneticus

I thank you for your kind words. One thing I have learned as I have gotten older is "man" can not explain anything in a definitive way. Just watch how taxonomy changes.

Also, at one time atoms were the smallest particle known to man, now I think it is quarks? Unless they found sub-quarks?

I personally think god has a sense of humor.
I believe atoms were the smallest particle, then god said "OH YEA, watch this" SHAZZAM. ;p

Our level of total understanding of such a complex issue is a feeble attempt to understand a minuscule portion of life.

thanks
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

The argument on dogs and wilfs is worng!@ WOlf dog hybrid? Ther eis no such thing. Recent DNA work has shown that the dog and the wolf, as well as the jackel and the coyote are at best "sub-species", with of course the dog being the domestic of those wild sub-species. The red qwolf of florida for instance has been shown to be a coyote wolf hybrid which jelled through reticulate evolution and thus we, in our short sightedness and need to split everything itno seperate and disctreet little boxes just got it wrong. Across of a dog and wolf is a dog, as the wolf is a wild dog and the dog is a domestic wolf. The genes are so close that the whole genus canus is hard to identify between the domestics or the wild "species".
BDR

I think that is a very appropriate quote for this subject. I think the only real factor involved here is an ethical one. Sure, you get some very cool looking patterns and color combos but there are so many different kinds of snakes with every color in the rainbow not to mention pattern variables. I dont think that hybrids are altering the course of the earth or anything like that, but, just because you can do something...........whats the point once its been proved you can do it?

ep
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Occupants not paying rent:
1.1. balls
1.1 corns
1 everglades rat
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
2.1 cats

If our ancestors had thought that then we would all be eating little tiny junglef owl eggs for a few weeks each spring/summer rather than chicken eggs. The hybrids will lead to domestics just like the other domestic lines and no one knows where that will ead, but the chicken, cow, sheep, goat nor dog destroyed the world and we sure dont think now that they are 'abominations' or an 'ethical question'. The only difference is that those domestications occured thousands of years ago, while this one is happening now.
BDR

If two "species" can produce fertile offspring, then they are not seperate "species" and in fact are derived from a common and recent ancestor. No matter how much you emotionalize the subject, you cant escape that fact. If at the end of the last ice age, the ancestors of corns and cals crawled in different directions, becoming different "species" and "sub-species" along the way, then how exactly can that "insult nature"? You need the longer view, not just this little moment on the planet. I have never produced a jungle by "tricking" and I have had "pure" cornsnakes eat each other. The differences in the snakes are based on the environment they crawled into at the end of the younger dryas, not some immutable law from a self-important planetary deity called "nature" In fact, hybridization IS one of the means that nature uses to create new species. It is called reticulate evolution and it most certainly plays a huge role in the emergence of these snakle "species"
BDR

why not ...this is a hobby, we keep these in tanks not are back yards. their is no credible evidence that says their will be any impact on wild life.we are not breeding snakes to help the endagered cornsnake or cali-king. THESE ARE PETS! they grow faster ,take food more readiy and can have some radically differant patterns and colors, all of this makes for a better PET. yes it does take a few generations sometimes to get good looking hybrids, but it takes several generations to get some "normal" morphs as well. by taking different species you can better the snake that is produced. i dont see the python people having this discussion? if you go to europe they love hybrids over their! and guess what almost all fads that hit the us start in europe and asia, so it will get much worse for those who dont agree. and for those who breed for money on here, many hybrids bring higher price tags than pure breeds as well.
i would just like to see one valid reason not to do it, it doesnt hurt anyone and the snakes are healthier and i have not heard of one NOT BEING FERTILE yet. so genetically if they are that close than why not?

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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

Because this hobby can impact our wildlife. Crocs, burms, retics, knight anoles, tegus, monitors, need I go on?, in Florida have hosed the eco system. Now imagine hybrid king corn somethings get loose in PA, Ohio, Virginia or your favorite state. Im no fauna expert, but an influence in those areas could hit hard on a few snakes that are in bad enough shape.

If it would truely stay in the hby as pets, there would be a better stance for it. But we have already proven that not all of these animals will not stay as pets.

just my opinon.
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

ok you made the same point i did in a different post lol!
reptiles in general have raised heck in florida. look at cane toads in australia. so you do have a valid point about feral animals in general, and this does reflect on hybrids BUT, if my corn got out it would cause the same impact(if any,but i dont think so) on the local black rat population(the only snake able to breed with them), ................................................................................so wether or not it was a hybrid it would have the same impact. so in order to solve that issue we should just own what is local to our own area .........................well we all know this will not work, so why are hybrids any different?
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

Your being a bit naive. Point was/is we have set a know pattern in this hobby. Stuff gets away. And hybrids will surely follow this pattern. And a vigorous corn/king hybrid could have a huge impact. I believe it was you that said they eat better. Kings like other snakes. I live in a tiny pocket of Massasauga's. That could change quickly if there was a few escapes. Or a local wholesaler lose a box of snakes. A lot of herps and other animals are on such a delicate edge as it is, they do not need to be pushed.

>>ok you made the same point i did in a different post lol!
>>reptiles in general have raised heck in florida. look at cane toads in australia. so you do have a valid point about feral animals in general, and this does reflect on hybrids BUT, if my corn got out it would cause the same impact(if any,but i dont think so) on the local black rat population(the only snake able to breed with them), ................................................................................so wether or not it was a hybrid it would have the same impact. so in order to solve that issue we should just own what is local to our own area .........................well we all know this will not work, so why are hybrids any different?
>>-----
>>0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
>>1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
>>1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
>>1.0 sinacorn
>>0.0.1 snapping turtles
>>0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
>>1.1 kenyan sand boas
>>0.1 mbk
>>0.1 albino nelsons
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

i dont feel im being naive, i feel my point is valid and yours is too, but that is why their is no answer. i do agree that all hybrid breeders need to be honest and hybrids that take on the appearance of pur snakes need to be sold as hybrids im not disagreeing with anyone on these facts their should be pure snakes but i believe their is a place for hybrids as well.
adam
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

OR those hybrids could inject enough hybrid vigour and gentic diversity to save those faltering lines. Hybrids are more likely to cross into a wide range of other snakes. It is also the vehicle that nature has been using for thousands of years to create these so-called species. We do not know the outcome. We cant even pretend to. To say, oh theywill ruin everything if one gets loose is a bit fatalistic. First, the species you mention are all introduced species, yet athe cal.corn cross is closely related to the rats and kings in the states you mention, so you are at most talking about intergradation which has been going on since the ice age started 1.6 million years ago, so, "unnatural", a "disaster"? I think not. I think it is the exact modus operendi that "nature" has been using for millenia, especially with these "genera" and "species". Remeber that the "cal" is just a sub-species of the getula which is spread from coast to coast with only slight variations.
BDR

"i would just like to see one valid reason not to do it, it doesnt hurt anyone and the snakes are healthier and i have not heard of one NOT BEING FERTILE yet. so genetically if they are that close than why not?"

Firstly, there is no evidence whatsoever that hybrids are healthier. That's just hogwash.

Secondly, just because reptile hybrids are usually fertile, that does not mean that they are genetically closer to one another than are mammalian hybrids. The fertility issue says more about the distinctions between reptiles and mammals than it does about questions concerning hybridization.

Thirdly, it is not true that hybrids don't hurt anyone!

If you want to produce a hybrid, you can. Why? Because the parent species of snakes you want to cross are still available. But what if they were not? What if you wanted a Jungle Corn (kingsnake x cornsnake), but you didn't want any milksnake in the mix? Should you have the right to do that? Sure!

But...what if all of the corns out there had already had milksnake introduced into their lines? If that were true, you could never have a "pure" jungle corn again, because, no matter how often you make the crosses back and forth, there is no way to undo what had been done in the introduction of the milksnake bloodlines!

Now, what if you just wanted to produce pure corns? Should you be able to do that? Sure! But if everyone with two snakes thought that they should breed them, just because they're pets and no harm can come from it...then sell those resulting offspring into irresponsible hands...before you know it, there are no pure corns any longer.

And don;t think that the wild populations will save us, either! There are captive corns and other snakes released into the wild populations by the hundreds, if not thousands, every year! Yes, most of them don't make it, but a lot of them do.

So, if you want a hybrid...Great! Knock yourself out! Go for it!

But please be responsible with it! Don't breed the animal "just because it's cool" and if you do, don't sell the babies as anything other than the hybrids they are, and don't sell them to disreputable people.

I have no problem with your right to own hybrids, so long as the exercise of your right doesn't conflict with my right to breed pure corns. When your right constrains the exercise of mine...well, now we have a problem.
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

dont get me wrong im all for pure species as well. heck they are the reasons i got into the hobby. the hobby is what then introduced me to hybrids. i love the fact that thier are people out their breeding locality snakes. i my self have a pair of corns that i only breed to each other( though i am going to try and use the female as a mate for my sinacorn on her second clutch(if shes healthy enough)) i would never purposefully misrepresent my animals. and as far as locality snakes go i passed up a great deal on 2 milks because their was no data at all on them. i will probaly pick up a pair of locality syspila this year as well. i just happen to be pro hybrid as well. i understand that you cant "unbreed" a species out of a hybrid but if no traits from that snake are showing then i could care less if generations back a milk was added to the mix. i am just pointing out mu opinions
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

"i understand that you cant "unbreed" a species out of a hybrid but if no traits from that snake are showing then i could care less if generations back a milk was added to the mix."

You are certainly entitled to your opinions. I would never suggest otherwise. However, am I not also entitled to mine?

If I actually DO care that a milksnake was added to the mix generations back, should I not be able to buy a corn that is not 1% milksnake? You may say that I can do that whenever I want, but my point to you is that as more and more people produce hybrids, we are seeing more and more "corns" that obviously have a little something extra thrown in there.

As these "compromised" lines continue to be propigated, it becomes increasingly difficult to find a "pure" corn. In fact, it may already be impossible.

So, you asked for one good reason not to just breed whatever could produce fertile eggs. There you go.
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

/
-----
Occupants not paying rent:
1.1. balls
1.1 corns
1 everglades rat
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
2.1 cats

>>
I personally don't have a problem with hybrids.
I only work with emoryi/corn mixes and for years and years emoryis were considered sub species of corns.
With new taxonomy they have been separated so I guess hybrids they are.
I have seen some seriously beautiful Jungle corns. Thought about getting a few, just decided not to go that direction.
Some of the milk snake crosses or hybrids are beautiful too.
So, to me, hybrids are fine.
I do feel people who keep and breed hybrids must always make their bloodlines known to anyone receiving their snakes.

There is a thread below that has a little more of my thoughts on the subject.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Jimmy knows this about me, so I am not saying this in response to his thread above...merely as an echo to his sentiments.

I have no problem with hybrids per se. I've had creamsicles in the past too.

My problem is with so many of the hybrid owners!

If everyone could be trusted to be fully upfront, honest, and ACCURATE about everything they produce, I wouldn't have a care in the world about hybrids. But they're not all like that...it's just that simple.
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I was watching killer instinct with that crazy barefood dude and he was in florida and he found a corn/king wild.
-----
1.1 Columbian red tails (Zeus, Athena)
1.1 Corn snakes (Appolo, Boreas)
0.1 King snake tri striped cal morph (Helios)

while I won't say the hybrids don't /can't exist, I will say that the likelyhood that anyone actually filmed someone finding one is not high. Most if not all "captures" on those shows are staged for the camera and to get specific results.
Do you remember the episode? What did the snake look like?
Thanks.
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

All this talk about hybrids got me thinking. Are creamsicles really that bad of a hybrid? I can see how some might get upset when it comes to putting snakes like corns and kings together. Since it is not natural for them to breed and can be dangerous.(not that I have anything against them) But from what i have read corns and rats have and will cross breed in the wild. And weren't corns once considered rats?

Its just I got a yellow creamsicle and he is a wonderful snake. I hate to think that some think less of him because he is 1/4 rat snake.
Jennifer

As Jimmy said Emori's were once considered to be a sub species of corn snakes, so myself and others i know probably wouldnt consider them a hybrid like kings and corns are.
-----
Cameron

Most literature considers creamsicles to be an amelanistic form of the naturally occurring integrade between corn X Emory's ratsnakes. The recently published "Snakes of the Southeast" has a photo of one of these intergrades which was found in the wild.

There is a difference between intergrades and hybrids. Intergrades are of the same species (but different subspecies). Unlike hybrids, intergrades are widely accepted in herptoculture (Florida king, greenish ratsnake, coastal plains milk snake).

Tim

Third Eye

Tim, you kind of know my view on this, I had interest in hybrids. Yes they are intriguing just because we can. But I've continually been a person that has been accused of not taking definitive sides on issues. At this moment I take pride in that.

I see why people find hybrids interesting. But there is no end to this argument. You know I respect your view. I also respect ALL others VIEWS. But I do not respect this tread any more. It's an argument for arguments sake.

Also this is an argument for other forums. IMO

I also tagged this on your post, because you post short to the point articulate arguments. Others do too, from both sides, but I had to pick one place for this.

No one will persuade hard-core people from doing hybrids, whether it’s money driving or truly the idea of something new. But like so many arguments within today's life it will not end, especially in a forum such as this.

Sadly I do not even have an idea of a venue to take this topic to, at least one that would be productive. And on that note I am stopping any of my ideas on this topic. It has to effect, except just perpetuate the argument, for arguments sake. And we clearly do that enough in life.

Thank you to all, on both sides that have had the civilities not to make posts that state just "my way is right".

POOF at least on this topic

-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

This thread wasnt started just for arguments sake. I was, and still am, curious about peoples reasoning for either liking or disliking them. I stated I didnt like them, but it wasnt accusatory to those who do. I dont think this developed into an argument but rather into a good debate. I do agree its time to move on though, thanks for weighing in.

ep
-----
Occupants not paying rent:
1.1. balls
1.1 corns
1 everglades rat
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
2.1 cats

Dude,

Aren't YOU a hybrid?
HerpZillA = Herp X Godzilla.

See you Saturday,

Tim

I never said this hread was STARTED for for argument sakes. This proved my point of people changing information.

That was o the other person replying.

As for you Tim O Thee

You assume Godzilla IS NOT a reptile. Stick to corn snakes. Godzilla and HerpZillA is out of your league!

NO ZOPS FOR YOU!

~

>>Dude,
>>
>>Aren't YOU a hybrid?
>>HerpZillA = Herp X Godzilla.
>>
>>See you Saturday,
>>
>>Tim
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

>>Dude,
>>
>>Aren't YOU a hybrid?
>>HerpZillA = Herp X Godzilla. WRONG!!!!!!!!!

It's Herp X God X ZillA

Godzilla was the hybrid

>>See you Saturday,
>>
>>Tim
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

I have been staying out of this discussion because I have found that it is very opinionated and it is one of those things that people think what they think and there is not a lot that you can do to change their minds. I have not read all the postings for this same reason, just a few, so sorry if I say something that has already been said. Usually hybrid discussions are told to post elsewhere and do not get too involved. Why all the responses this time? Keep it up and it might make the WIR! lol.

Just to stay on topic, I own three hybrids (2jungle corns and a trihybrid milk). I think the dangers of hybrids getting out and damaging the environment have the same risk as any other snake of "pure" blood. There are no wild corns where I am from, but if enough of my collection got out, I would think the dangers just as high as if my hybrids got out.
This is my real opinion and you guys can bash me all you want for it, but here goes..........
Humankind has destroyed the earth and continues to do so on a regular basis with their meddling. In my opinion, Humans are the worst thing that has ever happened to the earth. It does not matter what you guys say, it will continue to happen.
I am not saying that we shouldn't try to prevent escapees from messing up an ecosystem, just that it does not matter what type of animal that it is. If it does not belong there, and mankind introduces it, it will cause problems or die out because it can not survive in that area.
-----
**********Misty**********
I haven't lost my mind.... it's backed up on disk somewhere.

2.3.0 bearded dragons
0.1.0 water dragon
1.3.0 leopard geckos
12.20.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
2.2.0 king snakes
1.1.0 false water cobras
1.1.0 royal (Ball) pythons
0.1.0 kenyan sand boa
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
0.0.2 prairie ringneck snakes
0.1.0 chilean rose hair tarantula
1.1.0 emperor scorpions
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd hybrid dog

My whole goal is to make the WIR. lol just kidding. You are correct, humans do mroe damage than anything, unfortunately. Like I said, I personally dont really like hybrids, but I dont mind others having them. I didnt post this to damn people for doing it, I was just wondering why people do it and what there thinking is about the subject. Candid discussion of issues helps out both sides in the end to hopefully see where the other side is coming from. Im not worried about the impact they have on the environment, I agree with what you said. It just comes down to the question of should we do it. There is no correct answer I suppose, I just think that jungle corns, for example, were not meant to be. There is no benefit of doing it other than having something different, and with so many other species out there, why not go that route? Im not here to flame anyone, just trying to understand your side of the story.

ep
-----
Occupants not paying rent:
1.1. balls
1.1 corns
1 everglades rat
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
2.1 cats

Humans do things because they can, its human nature. like the other person that posted jurassic park to paraphrase..... its not about if you could do it it should be should you do it. People just don't think about it. I think hybridizing snakes is one of the least of humankinds transgressions.
I like the way hybrids look, and if an animal is that close, and able to breed without serious defects, then I do not see any serious problems. Yes, hybrids DO happen in nature. As I said, I am trying to stay out of this topic. The debate reminds me of the abortion debate. People have their own sides and stick to it. Instead of getting into the whole thing, I'd rather not talk about it!
Thats all I have to say.
-----
**********Misty**********
I haven't lost my mind.... it's backed up on disk somewhere.

2.3.0 bearded dragons
0.1.0 water dragon
1.3.0 leopard geckos
12.20.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
2.2.0 king snakes
1.1.0 false water cobras
1.1.0 royal (Ball) pythons
0.1.0 kenyan sand boa
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
0.0.2 prairie ringneck snakes
0.1.0 chilean rose hair tarantula
1.1.0 emperor scorpions
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd hybrid dog

Although I don't keep hybrids (except creamsicles), I have to agree with most of xblackheart's two posts.

Statistically, I think it less likely that enough hybrids are likely to escape in an area native to one of the parent species to interbreed and cause havoc, than the liklihood of a pure species getting out and either causing problems because of competition (or hybridizing??) with native species or possibly the same pure species carrying a disease not found in some populations (happened with native gopher tortoises moved around within the state of Florida). I just can't see the wildlife argument as having more merit than an argument not to keep any species of wildlife in captivity, since there is a small liklihood that any of them (native or non-native) could escape and cause wildlife problems. Don't let the humaniacs hear that reason to fuel their fires!

As for being able to buy corns free of "polluting" influences, yes, people should be responsible and keep good records. And many do. But there will always be irresponsible people and you can't take responsibility for them. There will be people who let their dogs run wild and produce unwanted babies that have to be euthanized. There are irresponsible people who let their children run wild and produce crimes and other problems worse than hybrid snakes.

I think we should all have a right to the same unpolluted wilderness (and a lot less government regulation) that was available to Americans a generation or two ago. But things change - some for the better and some for the worse (some depending on your viewpoint).

As much as I liked Jurassic Park, that line about "should we do it just because we can do it" always irked me a bit. That way of thinking (which unfortunately is the way legislators seem to think) doesn't take into account human nature. The fact is, if we CAN do it, SOMEBODY WILL do it. That is the way humans are. YOU don't have to do it, but somebody will. That includes hybrids, human cloning, breeding snakes, or just about anything else you can think of. Doesn't matter if I (or you) like it or not, just the way it is. So isn't it better to try to have them do it above board, with as much oversight as possible so that the most negative consequences can be avoided, if possible? Seems better than just saying "don't do it" and hope that everyone will listen. And of course, I am really talking about more than just hybridizing here, but that subject makes a good starting point for everything that humans do that may or may not be a good idea.

Ok, enough for now. Nobody has to agree with me, but that won't stop others from doing what they want, popular or not, even LEGAL or not, lol!

You make some good points. Human nature....... fortunately and unfortunately we have an advanced brain (well some anyway We take the good with the bad I suppose. Has there been any research that proves that king/corn hybrids are in fact perfectly healthy animals? Or have all the hybrids just lived a normal life with no problems so far?
Heres my very hypothetical question that may not have an answer. Lets say a ton of king/corn hybrids were released in an area and began to thrive. After a sustained population was in place, would these animals be considered a new species or subspecies by scientists. What kind of classification would they get? Lampropeltis Guttatus??????

ep
-----
Occupants not paying rent:
1.1. balls
1.1 corns
1 everglades rat
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
2.1 cats

There has been a lot of talk on this thread about how mankind has screwed up earth. True. Did anyone on this forum release Cane Toads in Australia? Answer: No. HerpZillA mentioned pollution, hopefully somebody also mentioned habitat destruction. As long as we're here on earth we will be competing for space and producing waste. Is there anything we can do about that? Not really (except reduce, reuse, recycle - which lessens the problem, but does not eliminate it). So there's a heck of a lot of screwed up things that we can't do much about. But there is one thing that we hobbyists can control: Stop making hybrids. The only hybrids that reptile breeders should be buying is hybrid cars.

As far as the Jurassic Park phrase and the "people will do it because they can" mentality, that doesn't make it right. Watch the news. There's all kinds of crazy things people do because they can. Does that make it right? If someone jumps off a bridge, would you? Is human cloning OK? There's a thing called "responsibility," and in these times, there's an extreme lack of it.

I don't think escaped hybrids pose much of a threat. My original post indicated that I feel hybrids are an insult to nature. I still have that opinion. I find it hard to believe how readily people are willing to disrespect nature's unique species, "just because they can."

There's a pet store I go to once a week. Here's a question I'm asked literally every time I go. "Hey Tim, what do you think THIS is?" The sad fact is, that like 'em or not, there's a significant number of people who don't keep records of if their animals are crossed and don't know (or even care) if what they have is a hybrid. This store gets unwanted reptiles every week. I imagine it's like that with other pet stores as well. Who's keeping track of these hybrids? If your answer to that is " no one," you'd be correct.

As HerpZillA said "Hybrids are here to stay." And he's right - now that they've infiltrated so many snakes, we'll never know what's pure...unless we buy directly from breeders who are anti-hybrid.

Tim

P.S. Kathy, I loved the article about "Uncle Bill" in the latest issue of Reptiles.

The wildlife authorities often use the same argument of "we can't do much to stop all of the development that is eradicating (some particular species) and we know that pet collection is not really the culprit in this particular case, but we CAN do something about pets, so that is what we will make laws against". I think focusing on some small point that isn't really causing much problem compared to some bigger cause is sometimes counterproductive. It sometimes results in "feel good" legislation or activities, which allows everyone to feel like SOMETHING is being done, so we don't have to worry so much about the other issues. If the problem is "solved" by legislation, if often results in the loss of somebody's rights in order for everyone to "feel good" without really accomplishing much. I realize that everyone here may not be calling for laws against hybrids, but even "moral censure" can cause similar results. As a libertarian, I am very much a "live and let live" type person.

I guess I can't see the insult to nature side of it. Nature has caused whole species to go extinct even without our help, and has split many species into many more species, depending on time and conditions. And our understanding of the whole relationship changes from time to time - as in creamsicles becoming a whole species instead of just a corn subspecies. What if they decide NJ corns are a subspecies or different species? Does that change our views of what is permissible?

If you think hybrids are an insult to nature, then what about the species that we have totally distorted from what nature intended? What about dairy cows that are so specially bred that they could never exist without our assistance? What about a dachshund that has been bred so long that its back doesn't work properly? How about Persian cats and Pekinese dogs that can't breathe properly because of the unnatural facial distortion? Lots of people seem to think those and similar examples are fine, but they seem (to me) more of an insult to nature than just mixing two species together - often species that might have been just one species in an earlier (much earlier!) time.

To go even a step further (as somebody mentioned earliir) what about "freaks" like amels? Nature would never allow most of our mutant corns to survive in the wild. They are all meant to be dinner for some other animal, unless conditions have changed to a point where amels (or whatever the mutation is) suddenly becomes an advantage over the normal color, and thus the new mutation thrives. So it seems an insult to nature to perpetuate what nature meant as a throw away experiment to be used only as the need arises. Not to mention that it would be very difficult these days to find a c.b. normal corn that the breeder could GUARANTEE did not contain ANY hidden recessive traits - what about the rights of the anti-mutant person to purchase a PURE, NORMAL corn? How far do you want to take "natural" corn traits?

I guess every person has their own idea of what is "natural" or not. My feeling is that most things people do are not very natural at all, and each person will have to use their own judgment as to what constitutes an insult against nature.

BTW Tim - glad to hear the article is out! I haven't gotten my issue yet - hope it came out nice!

Kathy,

It's too late to pass any "laws" moral or otherwise, about hybrids. They've already infiltrated the market. In many cases it's not possible to tell what is or isn't a hybrid. I'm the last person you need to have a conversation with about overburdensome wildlife laws. My points of view on Ohio legislation can be easily found by searching these forums.

Are hybrids an insult to nature? In my opinion, yes. Species and subspecies take thousands of years to evolve. They do so to fit into specific niches. To me, to just take two species and combine them "just for the heck of it" is disrespectful.

I think most people "got into" snakes because of their uniqueness. They're unique because they evolved to be that way, to fit their specific niche. If you appreciate this, why would you mess with it? Once a species' gene pool is polluted by hybridizing, that species is lost forever. Should we really encourage that?

Yes, animals are reclassified rather frequently. Does is make it OK to knowingly cross two distinctly different species, in case they get reclassified later on? I think not.

As far as amels, they do occur in nature, don't they? I may be splitting hairs here, but I'd say an amel is more "natural" than a hybrid.

Comparing snakes to dogs or cows isn't an apple-to-apples comparision. Some dogs were selectively bred to eradicate rats. Some to herd livestock. Some as attack/guard dogs, etc. As I mentioned earlier, domestic dogs are all the same species. Domesticated animals were developed to serve specific purposes. Don't captive bred snakes already serve that purpose (without being hybridized)?

Is there genetic room for a giant (maybe 8 foot) corn snake? I think so. And it could be done without hybridizing - that's how we got all those different types of dogs. There is also room for more corn snake color and pattern morphs -all while remaining true to that animal's genetics.

You stated:

"I guess every person has their own idea of what is "natural" or not. My feeling is that most things people do are not very natural at all, and each person will have to use their own judgment as to what constitutes an insult against nature."

I agree, and I think hybrids constitute an insult against nature.

Tim

Kathy said what I was thinking and the points I was tryig to make
and made them make sense in a way that I could not seem to do it. I agree with her statements. It is a very good point about the dogs. Mankind can stay in a specific species (without hybridizing it) and still screw it up.
-----
**********Misty**********
I haven't lost my mind.... it's backed up on disk somewhere.

2.3.0 bearded dragons
0.1.0 water dragon
1.3.0 leopard geckos
12.20.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
2.2.0 king snakes
1.1.0 false water cobras
1.1.0 royal (Ball) pythons
0.1.0 kenyan sand boa
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
0.0.2 prairie ringneck snakes
0.1.0 chilean rose hair tarantula
1.1.0 emperor scorpions
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd hybrid dog

Wow, for trying to stay out of this, I am not doing so good!!

I am done now (I hope)
-----
**********Misty**********
I haven't lost my mind.... it's backed up on disk somewhere.

2.3.0 bearded dragons
0.1.0 water dragon
1.3.0 leopard geckos
12.20.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
2.2.0 king snakes
1.1.0 false water cobras
1.1.0 royal (Ball) pythons
0.1.0 kenyan sand boa
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
0.0.2 prairie ringneck snakes
0.1.0 chilean rose hair tarantula
1.1.0 emperor scorpions
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd hybrid dog

because most people feel very strongly about it one way or the other. I will probabably not change my mind, and I doubt that anyone else will either, if they are passionate about it. But I hoped that some comparisons might be food for thought.

As for domestic animals (which corns are on the way to becoming, although it does take awhile), yes, they are bred for a purpose. And people will do whatever they can to make them conform to that purpose as quickly as possible. They bred mules because of the unique qualities that it gains from the two parent species. Since mules are sterile, each generation has to be started over. But had they not proven sterile, we would now have a hybrid that would have withstood the test of time and would be very well accepted for what it can do. I am sure that would be true of many other domestic animals, if a hybrid had proven to fill a need more than a pure animal did.

And it is true that the occasional wild albino turns up, but then the occasional wild hybrid shows up, too. So I still don't see the difference there. They are still both "freaks of nature", lol!

But the issue is more of an emotional feeling than just pure logic, so that means everyone will have to agree to disagree.

Kathy,

Well said. There are many facets to this issue and I don't think any of them are black-and-white. We all can probably agree that when man messes with nature, there's bound to be consequences.

I also don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed (assuming it's already made up) by reading this forum. One can do a search of kingsnake.com and see that these conversations have been had repeatedly, with no "right" answer.

The original person who posted asked people's opinion of hybrids. As someone who has been to most of the "big shows," I can tell you that most snake breeders are against them. Different people have different reasons, but I think in the end the market will decide the fate as to if hybrids will ever be produced in quantities to compete with "pure bred" snakes.

Tim

n/p

i know of some very big breeders of "pure" stock that do ALOT of hybrids as well. and they do not advertise them here for this reason, they sell most of them in europe were they are more popular, or at a few big shows here. as i said in an earlier post all "fads" start in europe and asia and this one is no different. it will get bigger and minds will change just do to the "fad" aspect of it.

these are pets not wildlife rehabilitation projects
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

I find that hard to believe. Do you have evidence to back this up? Europeans frown on all "freaks," of nature (including amels). I know several people who have gone to reptile shows in Europe.

I've also owned an Exporter's License. When exporting, you need to list the latin names of the animals you're shipping. Then they're inspected by wildlife officials at a designated port. I doubt very much this is happening with animals that no one can properly identify.

Tim

just do a google search for hybrid colubrids, hybrid snakes or any one morph and you will see that their are many more european sites than american sites and they hold a higher tag over their also. i will not mention the names of the breeders who do alot of hybrid buissiness over their, so to protect their best interests. do actuall research on the subject as i have and you will find the "evidence" your self
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

Did that. There are far more American breeders of hybrids than Euros. I've known America's top two colubrid breeders (Mark Bell and Brian Barczyk)for over a decade. Are you accusing them of mass producing hybrids and secretly selling them overseas? If so, they'd be veeerrrryyyy interested in your post and this "Hybrid Theory," which you have failed to back up.

Tim

>>Did that. There are far more American breeders of hybrids than Euros. I've known America's top two colubrid breeders (Mark Bell and Brian Barczyk)for over a decade. Are you accusing them of mass producing hybrids and secretly selling them overseas? If so, they'd be veeerrrryyyy interested in your post and this "Hybrid Theory," which you have failed to back up.
>>
>>Tim

there was no mention of a name and from his/her statement you can't even come close to picking two names.
I could pick the names of every breeder I have ever heard of and insunuate the post was about them.
I think speculation or accusations on who was meant is reaching.

Now, I don't know about the popularity of hybrids in Europe but I can see their popularity growing in the U.S.
A couple of years ago you found so many people afraid to even admit they had hybrids now you see more on the forums, you see more in classified adds, you see more websites with information about hybrids and you see more people willing to admit they have them, breed them and enjoy them.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Jimmy,

The post stated:

"i know of some very big breeders..."

How many "very big breeders" of colubrids do you think there are?

And why would they "hide" the fact that they're selling hybrids, if hybrids are growing in popularity?

There are very few breeders in the US who export to Europe. Do you know of any others, besides those I mentioned?

If a person makes a statement, I believe they should be able to back it up. ..otherwise it might appear that they're lying to support their cause.

Tim

>>If a person makes a statement, I believe they should be able to back it up. ..otherwise it might appear that they're lying to support their cause.
>>
>>Tim

I agree, I have seen this many times and have probably called people on it, knowing the way I am.
I just don't think we can speculate who they mean with as little information given.
no biggie.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

if its the same as mark and kim bell(probaly is) and they also sell in europe. i dont know if they "mass produce" them but i am getting 3 sinacorns from them later this year, i dont know about brian though. but no these are not the breeders i was refering to. but hybrids are more acceptable in europe.
am i allowed to post links to other sites? if so i can come up with a few, just dont know if i am allowed by ks or ph
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

I know he does. So does Brian. But neither secretly sells them in mass quantities to Europe, as you implied. Professional breeders honestly represent their stock and are open with their selling practices - they have to be - their reputation is on the line.

You stated "all fads start in Europe." Wrong. I don't think that needs any explaining.

You stated "they sell most of them in europe were they are more popular." Have you checked out the Euro classifieds on kingsnake.com? Not one hybrid. Have you read European reptile magazines? I've never seen a hybrid mentioned in an article or offered for sale in the classifieds section of Retile Care or Reptilia, the two leading reptile magazines in Europe.

I did a google search on "hybrid snakes." In the first three pages the breeders that came up were Professional Breeders, Dr. Frankenstein's Lab, VMS, and Mesozoic Reptiles. All of these are in the United States. You stated "just do a google search for hybrid colubrids, hybrid snakes or any one morph and you will see that their are many more european sites than american sites.." Wrong again.

It seems like you're wrong about a whole lotta hybrid stuff.

Tim

i know this does nothing to actaually prove my point but i guess know i must do to single minded individuals who see in a straight line only, this is an exert from the owner of unusualalbinos which is a uk based reptile breeder he wrote this to me in response to me asking him on his "opinion" of hybrids in the uk.he was unable to log in or he would of wrote this himself on here.Hi Adam.
I can't seem to get on the forum, for some reason I can't log in, even when
I change my password.
I think on the whole hybrids are excepted as part of ur hobbie, but just
like the USA their are some that don't like them and would like to keep them
pure.I think the big difference in the arguements between USA and UK would
be if they were to escape, they would not survive in the UK and their for
not go on to breed.Hybrid breeding has already been going for many years,
todate I'm not aware of any problems this has given to wild snakes.But lets
say that your hybrid snake did escape,here's some things that would be
againest them, to effect wild snakes they would have to of escaped into an
area where their are snakes of the same species of the hybrid in order to
breed.Another thing that would get in the way of producing would that a
hybrid would have to have an attraction to the other snake,and or the other
way, the wild type will have to be attracted to the hybrid.In my experiance
this will not always happen, a cornsnake would not always have an interest
in a junglecorn.And so the odds are geting shorter.Many hybrids these days
are being bred for the interest in colours and morphs, such as albino
hybrids and so on, and these animals have less chance of survival, and so
again the odds shorten.If a hybrid snake did mate with a wild, (which can
happen in the wild anyway ) then in time the % of the mix would decrease so
much in time it would not make any difference to the future of the
species.If any captive bred snake escaped into the wild and bred to a wild
type, the babies would not be natural. For example a cornsnake from the
Miami area of Florida expresses different traits to those that are found in
Okeetee region of South Carolina if we were to breed these together yes we
would still have a cornsnake but it would not be true to it's own unique
population we have genetically changed it.I respect those who wish to breed
natural only, but designer snakes are here to stay, and their is room in our
hobbie for all.
All the best
Pete
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

The hybrid snakes that I breed are done so through a desire to create
something beautiful and unusual, they are purely for the "Designer Pet"
market. It is not my intention or desire to pass these off as anything other
than what they are. The hatchlings I produce besides being beautiful to look
at, behave, grow and reproduce like any other snake. It is not the snakes in
captivity that are in danger from hobbyists hybridizing, as there will
always be those that will produce normal coloured snakes and continue the
wild type lines in captivity. It is the wild populations that are at risk,
not through hybrid or captive bred escapees, but from habitat destruction
and the collection of reptiles. So for those who are against the breeding of
hybrid snakes or snake keeping in general, it is not the very few designer
breeders, who are putting the wild populations at risk, it is all those who
turn a blind eye to what is happening in our world, where habitat is being
torn down to make room for roads, supermarkets and the like.
Some species and subspecies are similar enough that many of them can
interbreed and share genes with the help of man. A variety of hybrids have
been bred in captivity, in the vivarium herpetologists have been able to
break down the barriers of timing, breeding behavior & geographical
isolation that prevent species from breeding together in the wild. Breeding
hybrid snakes in captivity has always been a controversial subject amongst
the herpetological community, those who are against hybridization usually
have the following lines of thought.

a.. It isn't natural
b.. Hybrids could escape into the wild and contaminate wild populations.
c.. unscrupulous breeders may sell hybrids as pure species and therefore
contaminate captive populations of otherwise pure species
d.. Hybrids are sterile

Natural in it's true sense is a population of snakes in the wild, a
population that is free to choose who they mate, where males combat for the
privileges of the female, where only the strongest and dominate are allowed
to pass on there genes. Take a snake out of the wild put it in a vivarium
and it immediately becomes unnatural, a controlled environment determined by
man, where we choose when and what it eats, it's temperature range and who
it should breed with etc. For a snake to be truly pure bred in captivity,
one must breed it with another from the same locality as each population in
the wild across it's range has a different genetic makeup. For example a
cornsnake from the Miami area of Florida expresses different traits to those
that are found in Okeetee region of South Carolina if we were to breed these
together yes we would still have a cornsnake but it would not be true to
it's own unique population we have genetically changed it, in the wild Miami
hatchlings have a preference for small lizards whereas Okeete cornsnakes
preference is for rodents other differences are colour and size of
individuals, these are all determined by the genetic makeup of the snake.
Even if we were to breed animals from the same locality together, more than
likely when choosing animals to add to our collection, we would choose those
that expressed the most desirable traits. eg: bright colours, well defined
pattern, healthy and robust etc.By doing so we are determining who breeds
with who and choosing what traits of the animal we want their babies to
express.
Is this natural ?

Those who breed normal coloured snakes be it King, Gopher, Milk or Ratsnake
and keep them lines pure, are still producing Pet snakes, yes they will be
able to show there children/grandchildren a Black Ratsnake or a Californian
Kingsnake that looks like those found in the wild, but they have become
domesticated through captivity and would have no chance of surviving in the
wild. We have no end of colour and pattern mutations being bred in
captivity, achieved by crossing animals that express or are heterozygous for
these traits, these snakes are not seen in the wild, but are abundant in
collections worldwide. To take the Cornsnake as an example again, how many
different mutations are bred in captivity? my guess is hundreds, are there
populations of mutations in the wild, with the exception of the
anerythristic corn, No. Because the chances of two individuals expressing or
carrying the same mutant gene in the wild breeding together is very slim. So
what we have produced is man-made, we have bred for certain traits, more
than likely inbred to maximize the amount of hatchlings expressing any given
trait, . We are in effect producing "Designer" snakes. These mutant snakes
have been excepted into the hobby, embraced even. Most are beautiful,
expressing brilliant colours and patterns, hobbyists mix and match both
colour and pattern mutations in the hope of breeding something just that
little bit different. Normal coloured snakes are bred to enhance there
natural colouration. None of this is natural. What we are producing are pet
snakes, those that fit in to our idea of beauty. This desire to breed the
ultimate snake has lead us along the hybridization path, most hybrids bred
in captivity are not "normal" coloured snakes but albino or hypomelanistic
or express some other mutant gene. The fact that different species when bred
together can produce viable offspring defies all the rules of
classification, The 'Darwinian' definition of a species is 'a group of
individuals which can freely interbreed and produce 'normal' fertile
offspring'. Today species is defined using a number of criteria including
geographical, chemical, physiological and genetic bases of reproductive
isolation, often there is conflict among researchers as to which groups form
species. As all groups of living things are continually evolving, there will
always be situations where intermediate forms, will be difficult to classify
in a 'man made' category. Take the Ruthven Kingsnakes this is believed to be
the most primitive of the Kingsnakes, and it has been suggested they are
responsible for the evolution of several other species including mexicana,
triangulum, pyromelena, and alterna. Indeed the Ruthvens Kingsnake
hybridizes with other species that overlap it's range in the wild. In the
vivarium it has been responsible for the introduction of the Albino gene
into many King & Milksnake species.

Hybrids could escape into the wild and contaminate wild populations.

This is certainly true, but the same could be said for any escapee snake,
the chances of a hybrid snake surviving in the wild in our country (UK) is
very slim, and then to breed with one of our native snakes and produce
young, highly unlikely. Even escapees in countries where the conditions are
right for them they would probably perish and die before reproducing as
there immune system would not be sufficient to survive.

Unscrupulous breeders may sell hybrids as pure species and therefore
contaminate captive populations of otherwise pure species.

Again yes this is true, I believe that hybrids should be sold as such and
full disclosure of there genetic background will be made at both the point
of enquiry and sale. Unscrupulous breeders will tell you anything to sell an
animal, can you honestly say that you know the genetic makeup of all your
animals. Is that Normal Cali King really pure bred or is it heterozygous for
some trait or other, are your snakes unrelated, just because you brought one
in London and the other from Scotland does not mean they are unrelated, do
you know the parentage of all your snakes. With the hobby in the position it
is today we should be pulling together for the good of our reptiles not
arguing about the ethics of breeding. If you are unaware that our hobby is
in danger just visit the FBH website for information on the threat to our
reptiles.
When buying any snake you should always buy from a trusted source.

Hybrids are sterile

I have heard of individual hybrids being sterile but also some wild types.
All the hybrids I breed are fertile, and many show higher fertility than
some normal snakes. More fertility problems have been seen in snakes that
have been inbred than with hybrids. A lot of hybrids are stronger more
robust than there parents, this is known as hybrid vigor, the passing of
good traits from both parents gives the snake a survival boost. Evolution is
based primarily on changes in gene frequencies, resulting (among other
processes) from mutation, reproductive isolation, and recombination of genes
through hybridization.
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

Hi Tim
While I respect the view againest hybrids I can certainly confirm that hybrids are popular within the herp hobbie.
Their are infact many people here in the UK that have a great interest in them, and infact breed their own.For me reptiles both captive bred and wild have far greater threats than the few hybrid breeders, improving herp keeping standards and protecting habitat are the issues I like to work on.
People want to keep and breed the bright colors, the unusual.This is true of almost all pet animals, from fish to dogs and cats.
Room for us all.

Interesting how your spelling is just as bad as farfrumugen's! (or however he/she spells it).

Also, it's interesting how you didn't sign your e-mail (just like farfrumugen!)...and don't have a link to your website.

Who are you trying to fool?

Tim

farfrumugen@verizon.net
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

Thats not very friendly, ok my spelling is not so good, ever heard of dyslexia.Spelling is not important, as long as you the message.I'm not here for a fight, just having my say.

but i do believe this is over now at least for me. sorry to drag you into this. but i guess my passion and tspucklers passion are to much for one thread lol. we are both right in alot of ways and we are going no where fast by continuing this. im calling a truse(sp) and yes my spelling does stink.... huuked on fonics didnt wurc 4 mee. TRUSE
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

but in the week in reveiw the first of your photos that herpzilla posted is awesome. i really like it. what exactly do you call it? i figure its an amel but would that pattern be considered a zig zag or motley or what? im not into pattern morphs of corns to much so i dont know that much about the names of the mutations.
adam
farfrumugen@verizon.net
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

Oh, forgot to sign my name.
Pete
www.unusualalbinos.com

>>This thread really has got you worked up.
Everyone has their own opinion on hybrids.
It's not likely any of us are going to change anyone else's minds.
No need to get personal.
I know coming from me that may sound strange.
This has gone beyond a hybrid debate to personal attacks.
lets get it back on track.
all you have to do is look around
their popularity is growing...everywhere
can't change that

to what degree their popularity is growing.....well...
time will tell
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I heard the "If a hybrid escaped there would be no pure wild snakes" argument a few times. So then when a wild hybrid occurs EVERY snake in that area is "polluted" as well? I think not.
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

I normally don’t weigh in on issues like this but I think its time I do. The best way I can sum up this discussion is that it all comes down to ethics in breeding. Just like anyone else I like pretty and healthy snakes for most of us this goes with out saying. We all are eager to learn as well as to try to breed the healthiest and prettiest specimens we can.

To me hybrids open up a very good source of information on the actual genetics as well as additional taxonomical discoveries within the reptile world. It allows us to see if appearance mutations exist with the same gene within two similar or dissimilar species of reptiles as well as uncovering new mutations. I think if we do this right we will learn a lot about a subject that we all depend on in this industry. I think what we really need to do is self-regulate so that laws are not needed because our freedom is very precious and if we start handing it away it could be very hard to regain. Do to that we really need to self-regulate our own industry.

Since the hybrid is already out of the bag the only thing we can do now is tried to promote them in a way that minimizes the impact they can have. This means we need to change the naming convention for the industry names dealing with hybrids. When coming up with a hybrid name don’t use either of the parents names in the industry names this promotes them too much as a morph of the parent species. This might lead to a little confusion in the beginning but we need to think more about the ending in this case. Get rid of the terms Jungle Corns, Turbo Corns, Super Corns, Sinacorn, Frosted Corn, Fantasy Corn, Creamsicle Corn and come up with some names that don’t lead people to believe that they still should be breed back to one of the parent species. These hybrids really need to be promoted as a new semi-domesticated species that should only be breed to similar hybrids.

It seems to me that one of the largest bits of controversy with the hybrids has to do with backcrossing. The thing that happens with to much backcrossing is that the backcrossed offspring become indistinguishable in appearance with that parent species. The only way this can be stopped is to educate interested breeders that want to work with hybrids on proper breeding techniques to promote the creation of hybrid lines rather then allowing them to be backcrossed into non-existence and polluting the parent species. To really do this we need to boycott the sale of hybrids that, have more than a 50% mix from the two parent species. Secondly since this is an inexact science we also need to keep in mind that these hybrids should be breed to look as a mix and not to look like one of the parent species.

The second bit of controversy is that we play god when forcing snakes to hybridize. All I can say to this is I don’t think that playing god would be so easy. If a creator such as god didn’t want it to be able to happen we wouldn’t be talking about it right now. This doesn’t make it right but at the same time I don’t think it is something that needs to be entered into this discussion.

The last bit of controversy is the environmental impact they could have on a natural occurring population of snake species. To me this isn’t as much of a concern I look at it as it’s going to happen no matter how hard we try to prevent it. While I would hope people would be more careful in housing their animals so they do not escape sooner or later they will and they will have affects on the localities in which the take up home. As humans we are very clingy when it comes to familiar things we like things to remain the same but at the same time we forget that our world is a place of constant change.

Conservation and protection of natural occurring species is nice fluffy bunny thinking but it is not really realistic in the way the natural world really works. Species are designed to thrive, survive or die off and in doing so this makes room for new species of animals that fill the gaps and return the balance of our ecosystems. Animals evolve as they migrate and seek out new territories in which they can survive. Did we all together forget that as they do this they inbreed, interbreed, hybridize, and specialize until they become different than their original forms?

Adam

.
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

Not everytime.

Sorry, I did not want to ramble. lol
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

I have to say that I think it is a really bad idea to start such a thread on any forum other than the hybrid forum, where it belongs. It just invites trouble and stirs up an emotional issue which no one seems able to discuss with any rationality.
BDR

I disagree that we have not been civilized. We have been able to talk to each other in a very rational way. That is what I love about the corn forum.

But I agree that it should be discussed in the hybrid forum. Like I said before, usually when someone posts about hybrids, people usually tell them to post elsewhere and that is that. That is one thing I was wondering. What made this one so much different that everyone decided to respond?
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**********Misty**********
Stress is when you wake up screaming and then you realize that you haven't gone to sleep yet.

2.3.0 bearded dragons
0.1.0 water dragon
1.3.0 leopard geckos
12.20.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
2.2.0 king snakes
1.1.0 false water cobras
1.0.0 royal (Ball) pythons
0.1.0 kenyan sand boa
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
0.0.2 prairie ringneck snakes
0.1.0 chilean rose hair tarantula
1.1.0 emperor scorpions
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd hybrid dog

I thought about posting it there, but I wanted the input of the corn crowd. I assume that the folks in the hybrid forum are pro-hybrid (which is fine lol) but I specifically wanted responses from this forum. Had I started this off damning all hybrids and anyone who likes them, this would have gone much differently. But thats not how I operate. That gets you nowhere pretty quick. Im proud of the way everyone handled it. Way to go my forum peeps. Thanks for pitching in, even if you didnt want to. haha

ep
-----
Occupants not paying rent:
1.1. balls
1.1 corns
1 everglades rat
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
2.1 cats

I wanted the input of corn snake people. I know its a touchy subject but I think it went pretty well. I dont think anyone has changed their mind and I didnt expect anyone to. I was hoping to have a general discussion where everyone gave their viewpoints in a respectful manner. I think that is what we have here. I read everything that you posted and you have some very valid arguments. Perhaps when cows and goats and fowl were first crossed, they had this same discussion, maybe on a piece of rock and not an internet forum though. Thanks for the input.

ep
-----
Occupants not paying rent:
1.1. balls
1.1 corns
1 everglades rat
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
2.1 cats

>>I have to say that I think it is a really bad idea to start such a thread on any forum other than the hybrid forum, where it belongs. It just invites trouble and stirs up an emotional issue which no one seems able to discuss with any rationality.
>>BDR

Are you insinuating that the hybrid forum is the only place this topic could be discussed in an unemotional and rational manor?
I'm sorry but that is just crazy.
Now, you must remember if corn snakes can be hybridized (which they obviously can) then this most definitely is a pertinent topic for the corn snake forum.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

for stealing my glory lol....i said almost the same thing in a previous post. i have been goin at it with these guys since this thread started. all i have to say is that THESE HYBRIDS ARE PETS... thats it.... nothing else..they are of no more danger than a pure corn getting out in new york or a cal king getting out in florida.

point made take it and leave it
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

As I said in my first post, I did not read many of the post because I wanted to stay out of things, so sorry for the double ideas. I made the mistake of reading a couple of posts and got pulled in! LOL. The thread got so long that I just had to see what I was missing.

I don't have any new pics to post. I will get a new one of my Anery tomorrow! So here are a couple random pics

-----
**********Misty**********
Stress is when you wake up screaming and then you realize that you haven't gone to sleep yet.

2.3.0 bearded dragons
0.1.0 water dragon
1.3.0 leopard geckos
12.20.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
2.2.0 king snakes
1.1.0 false water cobras
1.0.0 royal (Ball) pythons
0.1.0 kenyan sand boa
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
0.0.2 prairie ringneck snakes
0.1.0 chilean rose hair tarantula
1.1.0 emperor scorpions
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd hybrid dog

pheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew!
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com