Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone out there know... I have a group of three red ackies that I have raised together since I hatched them. They turned out to be all females. They are 18 months old. Will introducing a male to breed them work, or will they fight?

You mention you hatched them, then you ask what will happen in the future.
Normally if you have kept and bred and hatched something(some species of monitors), it teachs you that you cannot predict what will occur. It teachs you, that there is a goal to work towards. And hopefully if you make the right decisions, the goal may be reached. At least its a lesson you could/should have learned.

In this case, you cannot predict what will happen, it may work or it may not. If you raise them together, the percentage of working(success) is only higher. Raising them together does not ensure individuals will get along. When attempting to breed individuals unknown to eachother, the percentage of success is lower. Which means, the percentage of them fighting or hurting eachother is higher or simply lower or lack of hatchlings, is most likely the result. The results are over the longterm, not restricted to one clutch or the short term.you may ask more about this if you want

In any case, does not mean guaranteed success or failure, they are only different choices you have to make based on your circumstances. If the group you raised did not enclude a male, WHAT choice do you have??????? If I may be a smart aleck, what are your choices, to glue hemipenes on a female? As far as I can tell, your only choice if you have all females is get a male. Or sell them and start over.

Many of these rules that are passed around started with me. The only problem with that is, they are taken out of context. For instance, raising them together, resulting in both sexes, while it has not failed(yet) for me, it surely would not surprise me. Or raising them together, it surely helps, but is not 100%. Neither was ever meant to be 100% They were meant to be a better choice, and thats all. Consider what is good for monitors is good for their keepers, and thats better choices. Good luck

I'm placing a link to a conceptual paper that explains how to differentiate temperature-dependent sex determination and cryptic forms of genetic sex determination.

It will seem boring to many, but with patience and common sense, proves very cut and dry. I know that this male/female-maker sex "rule" has been passed around for some time now, but we still have no clue about the true cause.

Unfortunately, academic investigators have failed thus far to replicate success in monitor reproduction (at least enough to produce the necessary numerical results). Since they can't take a lab monitor and split it open to check for a seed rack more than once, they likely won't have a strong answer for some time. Since you can't split a monitor open to check for a seed rack and then breed it or sell it, you won't have a strong answer for some time, either (you'd also have to start manipulating your incubation temps to satisfy those darn rules of rigorous investigation).

I'd reccomend reading this paper (pdf file). It's got very common sense information that's organized in a realistic (albeit wordy) way. You might already be familiar with the concepts in it, but can't hurt to check. It's linked through the publications web page on the site. I'll put the web address in case I goof up the link.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~fjanzen/

Valenzuela, N., D. C. Adams, and F. J. Janzen. 2003. Pattern does not equal process: exactly when is sex environmentally determined? American Naturalist 161:676-683.
Link

Thanks for the link. We, my son and I, do breed some turtles and torts. So we read up on some of that, but better yet, we talked with other breeders(horses mouth)

I have not heard of any institution having normal success with monitors. I do not believe its about facility, but more about a misunderstanding of what monitors are.

It would be very easy to produce smaller monitors in number enough to actually allow them to learn. In fact, it would be far cheaper and quicker then many current studies. Again, the problem is academia thinks monitors are one thing, and the monitors think they are another. One day, maybe both views will be the same.

About splitting them open, I am proud or sad to say, When working with numbers, you do get the chance to investigate. Of course your comments on selling or breeding our silly. Those thoughts may restrict you, but you are not me. It also appears you have no idea of what drives me. So, yes, I have viewed "seed racks" and lack thereof.

Lastly, I am not all that interested on what science says about this subject. As science explains an incidence or event. In this case, we commonly practice these incidences and events. So they do not need explination. At least to me. They are practiced.

For instance, In a previous discussion with Mr Sweet, the subject of diapause came up. He defined it in no uncertain terms. Its the stopping of development. Then he read a paper published by someone else, He then change his definition to, its the slowing of development. To understand where I am coming from, as one who deals with this on a daily basis, and I have dealt with it nonstop since 1991. It does not matter if the development is slow or stopped. It simply means in practice, the eggs that do this take longer to hatch. Is that a problem? no, they still hatch.

Its about the same approach to the sex deteriming question with monitors. I could care what the actual mechanism is. I already know how to work it. I have no problems sexing monitors. We practice raising pairs and have do so since 1991 as well.

So please try to understand this, when you or some other person is trying to make sense of something. It will be entirely different, if you or I, have been practicing it for many many years. Of course you want some scientific explination, but if you were doing it on a daily basis, you would think more like me. It would be interesting but of no real importance(to have it explained) hmmmmm whats the good of explaining something commonly done?

Consider, there is a difference between scientific curiousity and practical curiousity. As one who does this, I am interested in whats practical and appliable. Maybe someday, science will provide some of that. But as of now, no such luck. Cheers

You come across as a bit closed-minded come any papers. When you say it’s not 100% (production of opposite sexes in hatchlings raised together), there’s a chaos factor. I figure that’s where the proceeds of scientific curiosity can come in handy. More basis for certainty and less expecting the same ole.

If there is a window for monitor sex differentiation, does it occur during incubation based on temperature or does it occur after hatching when the siblings influence one another’s hormones? Is it standard genotypic 50:50 male/female and you’ve experienced some fraction of that 100% of the time?

I can appreciate your productions as being successful enough to let you ask “Who cares?” When it comes to answering questions for individuals who don’t have your track record and thus might not understand your reasoning, wouldn’t it be easier (practical) to have an answer based on more than “It’s what I’ve seen so far”, and to know when and why the truth to that answer came about? Then, you no longer have to worry about “rules” being taken out of context, even if they’re still not 100%.

Not every paper is some garbled up representation of a few wild monitors viewed with radio transmitters making for dragging a sixth track mark. You mention turtles. How useful the papers on sex determination can be. Since any (good) paper will report materials and methods, including the geographic source of the eggs, you can use inference when applying the information. When you talk to another breeder, maybe his/her snapping turtles came from Louisiana, yours come from Indiana. You go by the threshold temperature the other breeder uses, doesn’t quite measure up. Darn. If you had read a paper on incubation temps in Indiana snapping turtles vs. Louisiana snapping turtles and the difference in threshold temperatures, time and energy saved (application).

I must misunderstand your perception of scientific inquiry (curiosity) and its potential application to the hobby. If you first consider yourself a person who's fascinated by the animals you succeed with, why would curiosity (whatever kind you wish to call it) about the origins of the trends you see in your animals be of no interest, with only practical applications of interest to you? That’s a business perception, and it confuses me. Then again, a hobby that’s very big and very successful, I guess that IS just an ideal business, hey? Ben

First, in your first paragraph, you mention that I said, its not 100%. I did not say that. I said, its never failed for me. But I would not be surprised if it did. That is not saying its not 100%. Then you mention Chaos. Yes, there is tons of Chaos, but that is with the people. Just like you did. You change what is written to fit your thoughts. As well as you and science changes observations in nature to fit the humans and not fit the monitors. Sir the humans are the Chaos. I can explain how human Chaos effects raising monitors.

About being close minded, I try not to be, thats how I became successful, I opened my mind to the actual animals.

I practice this first, read about it second or third(I would rather watch amazing race). I have gathered as many papers and books as I could in the begining and read them 100 times each. Hmmmmmmm at least over and over. The problem was, there were very very few bits of information that actually applied to the captive keeping and breeding of monitors. At least successfully. There were a handful of papers that were on captive breeding. In these cases, I read them, then visited the setups. Be it a private keeper in Germany, or a zoo in Holland or Germany, or a zoo in texas. I actually went and visited. I also spend 14 trips and over a year in Australia. With a few visits to other monitor containing countries.

So Close minded, no, practical yes. On this forum, my original battle may have started with me telling Mr. Sweet, his papers were of no value to my projects. Hmmmmmm he asked, what am I suppose to say. They weren't and he admitted the papers were not designed to be useful for captive breeding.

Now that I am very experienced and have practiced the keeping, breeding, raising, and so on and so on and so on with varanids, WHY would I care if science explains to my liking or otherwise what I have done on a daily basis for years. Its kinda like some academic telling a farmer in Iowa, that science finally figured out how to grow corn and is trying to tell the farmer how or explain what the farmer has been doing for years.

Heck science could come up with a different way, or even a better way. But the farmer has been growing corn for his whole life. Why would he be excited. Maybe a little is the new way was of use.

What would excite me is, if science came up with something that actually solves problems. That would be cool. AND USEFULL.

You see, there are many kinds of varanid fans, the ones who love monitors and live in a verbal /written world(The sweets and possibility you) a world that each bit of information is based on and extented from the last bit of information. A world of pictures and text, About how each book or paper relates back to the previous books and papers. A world based on supposition and theory. A world of authors and a heritage of authors. Sir, there is nothing wrong with that. Go for it.(not exactly my world)

BUT, and I use the word but, correctly this time. There are other types of varanid fans too. Like many of the folks on these keeping forums. They are interested in all that literature, but more interested on the animals and the wonder of the animals themselves. Not so much what people think about the animals, just the wonder of the "real" animal sitting in front of them. Even if the stupid papers were right(big if) it would be like reading the last chapter of a book first. I think the intend is to read the book, keeping animals is the book. I want to have the last chapter be the last chapter. But then the papers mostly have nothing to do with the last chapter, so no worries.

Of course each group of these people is also divided up into smaller groups. Of course I am a member of a small rare group that actually is interested in how the animal performs, how its design actually works. Their potential, their range of potentials. The real animal, not what someone says about it. Heck, it would be interesting if science actually came up with something that is real, but I would still like to "SEE" it myself. To see it is far more important, then reading about it.

So Closed minded, I get the feeling that applys to you. Your being closed minded to the actual practice of applied techniques of successful varanid husbandry and keeping. You somehow thing, that papers are the horse and monitors are the cart. The reality is, the monitors are the horse, and science is the cart. Science is following the horse, always, science is after the fact. IT does not pull the cart, the animals do. The sad part is, science is mostly been studying what comes out of that little hole in the back of the horse, or at least it reads that way.

About turtles. Hmmmmmmmmmm you do understand, you can temp sex turtles and only recieve a high percentage of the desired sex. This is commonplace. Its only increases a certain sex, not completely controls it.

Also, science and turtle hatchers have gone batty, in my mind. As far as I can tell, most if not all TEMP sexed reptiles are shallow nesters, that is, they nest close to the surface.(remember I am an old simple Iowa corn farmer) Which if one uses some simple common sense, has to have a temperature fluctuation. These type of eggs were never intented to be incubated at a constant temp, either high or low. In practice, if you incubate at temps that fluctuate between the temps that causes females and the temps that cause males, you get BOTH. As nature intented. Varanids are deep nesters, at least most species. The temps have less fluctuation naturally. But still some. In practice, I do not worry if the temps are, 84.32571 or 84.32572. I normally let the temps fluctuate five to ten degrees. Its normal after all. Nature does not have thermostats. If you use the bean on your shoulders, you should have the sense to know that something buried 18 inches to 24 inches in the ground and was there over several seasons, day, in the sun and night, not in the sun, would have some degree of fluctuation. Or you can do what I did, I checked.

Your last paragraph exhibits your naivity, If you have decades of experience with anything, what would you think of someone handing you a paper on something you saw, and succeeded with, ten years ago. You would read it, hold it up and go, Hmmmmmmmmm and say, about time. Then throw it in the stack of other useless papers. I am sure that is interesting to somebody, somebody who doesn't actually do it, but lives in the above world of theory and supposition.

No offense, but to sell monitors, means you buy imports and have extra, so you sell them. Or you breed them, thru supportive husbandry and have extra. In any case, its about having extra. I would be a fool to give them away, considering the cost of keeping varanids. So I sell the extra. I keep the ones I want(way to many) buying monitors from me is like prying a candy bar out of a kids hands. I still think monitors are candy bars.

That you think its about commerical and this and that, is so darn naive on your part is funny. The truth is, it does not matter. IF there was a giant commerical business breeding monitors, they would still have to apply husbandry to allow recruitment(recruitment is the basis of exsistance) RECRUITMENT is natural and needed without such, life forms become extinct. In captivity and nature. To reproduce is the minimum requirement for exsistance, not the maximum. It also is the minimum requirement for captive exsistance.

WHat I find appauling is, people think its doing something extra to breed monitors. ITS NOT EXTRA, its the minimum. So I say in retaliation. GET a life and figure out what the minimum is, and support these captives at least to the minimum. Consider, varanids have been and are reaching the minimum for tens of thousand of years to now, with no help and lots of hinderance from man. What how hard can that be?

Chaos, yes theres Chaos, only its not about the animals, its about the people. They cannot seem to keep or put simple ducks in a row. Its so darn simple to breed monitors, I do not understand how to stop them. In actual fact, the only way to stop them is to kill them. Which is what 99% of the people that have them are doing, THEY ARE IN THE PROLONGED ACT OF KILLING THEM. So there you have it, Chaos is a people thing. If somehow they realize they are not doing the right thing, they fight, call names, become combative, etc. Hence you have this forum. Cheers

“For instance, raising them together, resulting in both sexes, while it has not failed(yet) for me, it surely would not surprise me. Or raising them together, it surely helps, but is not 100%. Neither was ever meant to be 100%”

I still don’t see how I misinterpreted your statement. The importance of knowing the mechanism is not to have some “science-certified” statement that your findings are indeed TRULY true (yeah, how silly is that?). Rather, to have a more concrete, more founded answer for someone who asks why his/her doing the same as you did not work than “Does not surprise me. Neither was ever meant to be 100% (how do you know that?)”. The incubation issues with regard to temp-dependent turtle eggs aren’t as cut and dry as you suggest, but alas, this is a monitor forum.

You speak of papers as an abused child does parents. Sure, there are many bad ones, even harmful ones, out there with regard not only to captive husbandry applications but with regard to monitors or even biology in general. It still doesn’t hurt to peruse them, though. Heck, it’s no worse than listening to many keepers out there who are just as prone to being full of hooie. The importance is not in a keeper being able to say “yes” or “no” to papers or to other keepers' experiences, but rather, in the strength of a keeper being able to sort for quality in both.

I don’t see you as some monitor mill. You’re usually quick to jump to the defensive on your basis in the hobby; don’t feel the need to be. I understand the general basis of the successful breeder whether it’s with monitors or turtles or whatever. It’s usually the same and it’s almost never based on business. I do think some of your perceptions seem very business-like. When your curiosity extends (or you let it extend) only as far as captive applications, that is based on production (achieving the minimum) and little else. What happened to wondering over natural phenomena? The purpose of science is to explain the unexplained; application potential is secondary.

I understand publications don’t guide the animals they’re about, even though they can guide the people who write them. It does help to periodically reinforce this perception in my head, and a sound way to do that is to come here and get that long dose of anti-publication, hands-on common sense you offer. It’s easy to discuss something with someone who doesn’t want to take anything from the discussion. Tell the person and the person doesn’t listen, his or her original concepts are unchanged. End experience. It’s harder with people like me, because as we learn, we often run in partial circles and ask the same questions over and over, and ask for too many details. It takes time to discuss with people like that. I appreciate the time it takes you. Ben

writting skills or better yet, none at all.

The second sentence is about them getting along, not about what sex they turn out to be. I think if you follow the context of the paragraph, you can figure that out. But surely if I was better at writting you would not have to figure it out. All I would have had to do is include, does not guarantee them getting along.

I guess its also the problem of addressing so many different things at once. Which is common on these forums. I start addressing one or two things, then its gets multitasked into a thousand vaguely related subjects. The nature of the beast I guess. Ok, so let me continue the rest of your post. As this only addresses the first paragraph. Thanks

I have to wonder why you care what I think? or report. You do understand, I try not to think anything, it only gets you in trouble. I mostly report events or observations. Then someone wants an explination. I don't care to have an explination, not yet. I am gathering information, to make, "hard answers" is not recomented when taking in information. Of course, there are soft answers. The problem with soft answers is, others preceive them as hard answers.

When talking about behavior, there are few "hard answers". But the inexperienced do not understand what is hard and what is soft.

So if you really want to talk about monitors, you need to get specific, then I can report the events that I have witnessed.

For instance, if your gathering information, then you should not be doing this flack stuff. How about asking more about it. Like how it came about, what makes me think there is merit to it? etc etc. Then ask, if its based on results(yes) or what I think(i try not to think) Its merely results. You can make whatever you like out of it.
I suppose my task as a doer, what who actually does this. Is to make aware of some odd things. I have done that or you would not be asking this. Its not my task to figure it out or care it its figured out.

So please, you try to figure it out, I will be happy to help in any way I can. But simply put, Its ain't my job.

I am also confused as to why you spend more words and time trying to figure me out, when its the monitors that need the figuring. In all reality, it simply does not matter how I think of papers. Surely if you read the past conversations, you would understand, that I am constantly reminding people that there are good and not so good of EVERYTHING, including scientific papers. Its the suedo science folks who tend to believe that if is written, its so. Not me. I believe, if it happens, its so, even if I have no idea what it is. Cheers

Thanks. Note taken. Ben