Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and hope someone can help.

I recently moved so Einstein started seeing a new vet. On the first visit Einstein got a Complete Blood Count (CBC). The result of the blood test showed that everything is normal. However, the test did come back saying that his White Blood Cells (WBC) are dark and shrunken eventhough the count is normal. The vet concluded that Einstein must be fighting off an infection.

This is very odd because I thought your WBC count would be HIGHER if you're fighting off an infection. But, this might only apply to humans and turtles might be different. So I followed the advice of the vet and Einstein did one round of antibiotics (10 needles!!) and had his blood tested again. The results of his recent CBC were the same - everything normal, including his WBC count but the WBC are still dark and shrunken. The vet wants to do another round of a different antibiotics, which means MORE needles for poor Einstein.

I was wondering if anyone knows what normal WBC count but the fact that they are dark and shrunken means? Also, if anyone on the forum had similar experiences, I'd appreciate you sharing them with me.

Thanks so much!

PS: Einstein's activity and appetite hasn't changed since doing that first CBC and first round of antibiotics. He's basically been the same for the past year - busy and inquisitive and eats everything I give him.

Everything is relative to your DVM's reptile experience. Be open with him/her about your concerns and they'll have the best answers for you.

WBC's are usually elevated when fighting off infection... However, in long term infections the count usually level off, but toxic changes will still be apparent a large proportion of the WBC's.

A common mistake with reptile blood samples is the anticoagulant. On the smear, it's best to use fresh blood without anticoagulant. If one is used, then use Lithium Heparin and not EDTA which would be normal for mammals. I'm uncertain if this would cause the abnormalities seen in the smear however.

If all else fails, treat the turtle, and not the lab work. Why was the initial CBC done? If the turtle is happy and healthy appearing, with no clinical signs, then perhaps hold off on any treatments and have a blood sample sent in to a pathology lab (again, one used to seeing reptile samples) to have any abnormalities verified.

My recommendations are of someone who has not examined your pet, and I am a animal health tech, NOT a veterinarian. My opinion and advice are something to consider, and perhaps discuss with your vet, but is not a replacement for your vet's opinion.

Ian

“I was wondering if anyone knows what normal WBC count but the fact that they are dark and shrunken means?”

WBC that are described as dark and shrunken can be the result of many varied conditions; either bacterial, viral diseases, parasites in the blood or as is common with box turtles a drastic change in their blood as a result of long hibernation. Diagnosing the condition is tricky.

White blood cells also called leukocytes do increase their numbers when fighting an infection. However they can be the target of an illness....which would also cause lethargy, poor appetite....These problems you already stated are not symptomatic....So one would think to look elsewhere.

Chelonians are somewhat unique in the blood makeup. They have two distinct granulocytes simply referred to as type one and type two. Most lizards for example have only one. It would be interesting to find out if your vet was referring to one of these types. It may narrow the search for the cause.

Another latent point is how your vet determined which type of antibiotic to use with such an uncommon finding? If he took cultures of your boxies blood and ran a sensitivity test; he/she could determine whether gram positive or gram negative bacteria were responsible and which courses of antibiotic would be effective.

I’m thinking.... could seasonal changes affect the blood of boxies and this just be a normal occurrence? Since his behavior is quite normal. Reflecting back on what I just asked...This will throw a wrench in all that I’ve just stated; it has been studied that TOXIC substances have affected the white blood count of boxies. Is it possible that your boxie may have consumed something you weren’t aware of? A worm that crossed into a pesticide ridden area? A small amount of disinfectant in his environment? A Toxic Plant ?

Considering all of the above ...I would soak him in warm water ( a few degrees warmer than his normal high temp) to elevate his temperature to cause a fever similar to us fighting an infection...and it will also hydrate him and rid him of toxins if they are the cause....without hurting him or being too invasive. Try it for 10 days. Then have a WBC check.
Ric