Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi every one I’ve been reading these forums for a long time and with all the discussion going on about hybrids I was wondering if anyone had any ideas how we could improve their image in herpiculture. I have a few of them that I’ll go over below.

The one concern that I hear voiced over and over has to do with over backcrossing of hybrid reptiles till the offspring are indiscernible from any one of the parent species. The second concern has to do with losing the actual purity of certain species to me this has to do more with the actual industry names used with hybrids. When a name includes either of the parent species it becomes easy for those uneducated in the actual genetic lineage of the hybrid to misrepresent it as a morph of the parent species. The third issue really all comes down to ethics in breeding.

To take care of the ethics problem we really should show people that working with hybrids can lead to useful information that relates to industry related topics such as: genetic compatibility, taxonomical classification and behavior related observations; and further breeding related information such as copulation length, gestation lengths, clutch size. It would be nice if we had a place to submit information like this while giving credit to the actual breeder. We all like to learn about the reptiles we breed so I was thinking it would be nice if we could do it in a more scientific manner.

To deal with the other two issues we really need to self regulate better how we go about working with hybrids. This means we have to limit ourselves from over backcrossing hybrid lines. By limiting the sale of hybrids that have more than 50% from anyone species. Second come up with industry names that do not include portions of the parent species names. Third promote breeding of hybrids to hybrids rather than hybrids to non-hybrids. Fourthly trying to produce hybrid lines that have more of a mixed look to them rather than looking like just one of the parent species.

Well that’s all I have to say for now but I would really like if people added their thoughts.

A

those are all great ideas. The only problem that I see with self-regulating is that records become lost when a snake passes through multiple sellers. We can implement a registration system, but if a buyer does not maintain proper records or fails to disclose those records to a new buyer then our record keeping system will be ineffective. A more effective system would be to register "pure" stock and locality stock in order to keep those lines pure, and perhaps to also only breed from registered stock (or documented wild caught stock.) As long as inaccurate records and dishonest or lazy breeders/sellers are selling snakes (pure and hybrid) then we cannot know the genetics of our lines. I don't want to shift the responsibility to the purists (or those otherwise interested in keeping pure lines) and locality breeders, but honestly, that is the only and best way to increase the liklihood of maintaining pure lines. This is irregardless of intentional hybridization of snakes.... many newbies buy 2 similar species of snakes (sinaloan and nelsoni, for example) and don't bother to distinguish between the 2 species and *presto* you have a diluted/hybrid line without records to say so. The new breeder might actually believe that they have 2 of the same species - I have seen too many snakes being sold as something that they were not, and they were not apparent hybrids.

I believe that MOST of the impurities introduced into "pure" lines are UNintentional, but the "purists" find it easy to blame the intentional hybridizers. If we provide better, more thorough records then maybe we can set an industry standard? I know that I intend to provide complete (as far as I have available) lineage records of every snake that I sell. I also register all of my corns and cornsnake hybrids with the american cornsnake registry.

charlene

Those are good ideas and would probably help gain respect for hybrids. I think though it is mainly up to the purist to make sure their stock is pure. That requires good record keeping. Any purist who cannot provide good records for their stock should not complain when people question the purity of there stock.
The current unfortunate situation we have with many species is due to the fact that many honest people just did not expect the proliferation of so many hybrids and did not keep records. It is unfortunate that this has led to the demise or questionable purity of many stocks of species which are no longer obtainable from the wild but all we can do is move forward and begin keeping records on stocks that are still obtainable from the wild.
It is useless to demonize hybriders because many of the questionable stock were intentionally created by people who wanted to get money for a so-called new morph. I am mainly a locality graybands guy and I can tell you that since graybands were collected there have always been people who would try to pass of mixed or pure common localities as rare ones and they are not hybriders just people wanting to get more money.

You make some good points. I think what would help is if people would stop doing it simply for the sake of being able to say they did it. There's plenty of Hybrids out there already,and it is these that should be bred to each other more so than back to a pure animal. I have also wondered if it is not a bad idea to not tell people how certain snakes came to be....and that they are all simply labeled as Hybrid. Or Corn X King, King X Milk instead of Snow Corn X Amel Cal King etc. I have seen quite a few posts where a young keeper will say I have a male Milk and female King....can I breed them together? This type of thing is what aggrivates anti hybrid people, as the "project" is not thought out and it seems kind of pointless as F1s are not the best looking snakes and from what I hear are sometimes very similar looking to one or the the other pure snakes. I say we move on, past F3s and make some snakes that are easy to identify as Hybrids,,,,and give the anti folks less to complain about
Tom Stevens

I agree with your comment about this statement... "I have seen quite a few posts where a young keeper will say I have a male Milk and female King....can I breed them together?"

People probably should not be creating hybrids just because the snakes that they have are not of the same species. A serious breeder will purchase the breeding stock that they need to produce quality snakes and not just throw 2 snakes together. Also, The difficulty of creating F1 hybrids and the vision required to get good results in future generations should be left to more seasoned breeders. I have been breeding animals since I was 16, but I don't plan to attempt any F1 (pure to pure) hybrids anytime soon - if ever. I purchased quality hybrids with the intention of making more quality hybrids (hopefully better than their parents) and it was not a difficult thing to do. However, I do see a need for more F1 hybrids (to increase diversity in the genepools, which can be quite small for some hybrids.) These just need to be planned and documented carefully, only done with a specific goal is in mind. Which is how all breeding SHOULD be done. I breed fancy mice too - and I keep pedigree records on all of them. Some of my mouse pedigrees go back 20 generations and these are not high dollar animals (as compared to a snake.) Record keeping is one of the easiest parts of breeding and doesn't cost much to do when the records are kept by hand, but its easier with the fancy pedigree software that is available.

I think to throw a monopoly to the more seasoned breeders is not the way and will never be the way.

the only way is promoting the use of record keeping.

If we are not carefull the art of hybridizing will be partialy pushed underground and that is where you will find everything falls apart ie no record keeping at all and hybrid past as pure.

And this statement posted above :
I agree with your comment about this statement... "I have seen quite a few posts where a young keeper will say I have a male Milk and female King....can I breed them together?"
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I will say yes son of course you can but remember to to be honest with your results and keep good records.

anotherthing to remember is that some of the most spectacular hybrids have been produced buy trial and error and no line of sight used.
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************* Oh no its Me again *************

One great way to improve the image of Hybrids is to freely discuss them with an open mind with facts and not fallacy.
A comprehensive database that over time will catalogue all that has been crossed, the outcomes, the successes and the failures.

-Yasser

HYBRID HAVEN

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You said" I think to throw a monopoly to the more seasoned breeders is not the way and will never be the way."
I think that sounds a little harsh, and though I am no expert I have seen just a few pics of what the reproductive anatomy of a pair put together looked like,,,and it was a bit damaged to say the least after they disengaged. This may be very uncommon? I really do not know, but the fact is the ground work has been done, and I do not think that worrying about bloodlines with Hybrids is too much of a concern. After all, Hybrid people often mention Hybrid vigor, which you do not get from pure pairings. It is with pure snakes that you must worry and wonder about the watering down of a specific line. The Hybrids are two seperate lines, very different from the beginning. I talked to friend about some of the steps breeders go through to try and get two different snakes to breed,,,,seemed like a royal pain. For myself, if I can start with beautiful F2s and move onward I am all for it, and I will pay the extra buck too for the best looking snakes I can get. I agree with what Yasser said beneath this post as well. If there is a record kept of what has been done, we may be able to emliminate some pairings that did not seem as compatible and simply did not thrive. However I feel there's a few experts out there who may be able to put a lot of useful info into the record books,,,,and maybe now would be a good time to ask. Tom Stevens

well, it would not be a monopoly, it would be simply the experience needed to successfully produce F1 hybrids. I'm sure that you are aware of the challenges involved in breeding milks to kings (for example.) Also, a new breeder will not have the experience to make a long term breeding plan/goal. Anyone can become a seasoned breeder with time and experience, and it is best to start off with easier varieties and work your way up. A new breeder might decide very quickly that this is all too much work.

And As was mentioned before, just throwing 2 snakes together does not represent hybridizers in a positive light. You CAN get some of the experience needed to make long term breeding goals from breeding other types of animals, but breeding 2 species of snakes is still something that requires some level of experience with snake breeding in addition to advice from experienced hybridizers. For my first F1 hybrid crosses, I plan to breed a cornsnake with a ratsnake (not much of a challenge) with a specific longterm goal in mind - a particular color phase. But I won't even attempt to do that for another year, after I get more experience breeding snakes in general (pure varieties within their own species, as well as already hybridized snakes with the same or similar hybrids.)

This is not to say that there are no exceptions, because as I said, some people have experience breeding other animals. Some of these people MIGHT be ready for the challenge of doing F1 crosses of hybrids, and have a visionary plan... but that's not the norm. But that's not a monopoly, breeders will do what they will (there are no regulations saying who can breed what, as long as the species are legal in their area.) It's up to the breeders to decide what they are or are not ready for, and if they rush into things then they will be the ones to regret it (and perhaps the animals too.) All we can do is give recommendations and say that new breeders might want to start small and decide if snake breeding is really something that they want to get into, and they might want to start with easier species and/or established hybrid varieties and wait to decide if they want to work with more challenging varieties later.

charlene

its great that the 6 of us are concerned enough about the image improving of hybrids,but i dont think enough people are worried or else they would join in. we need way more input, but as i see it most people that hybridize keep there info to themselves, just look through this forum hardly anyone helps other people that want to try so it seems like there wont be an improvement on there image because if there is no help like there is with other snake breeding then people will just try whatever way they fell is right even if we know its wrong.

Iv seen posts on here asking for help with no replies but on the same day breeders with years of knowledge have flashed off there results but have not responded to the pleas for help.

it will always come down to money in the end, you know ( if iv got it and you havent and you dont know how to then i can charge as much as i like ).

and People with no knowledge will try and when they dont get good looking results they will be passed of as the bigger percentage, ie corn or milk or king or ??????? insted of x y = xy 50/50 you know what i mean.

HOW DO WE PUSH THINGS FORWARDS WHEN SO FEW WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.
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************* Oh no its Me again *************

from my experience with a variety of species - it only takes a few dedicated breeders to make a huge change (sometimes it is just one person that becomes the foundation of a "breed." If someone had the time, initiative, and resources to start a registry for hybrids, with educational material on responsible hybrid breeding and other pertinent articles, then it could all bloom from there. Unfortunately, I am a full-time college student, AND I work, AND I have a 3 year old and husband, and this is all in addition to my multitude of pets. The only reason that I have the time to post more than once this week is because of spring break. I wish that I had the time to do some of the things that need to be done, but I don't. I know that SOMEONE out there has to have some free time on their hands? Maybe the rest of us could contribute a little at a time, even if we just helped a little bit each then it can equal up to a lot. We know what should be done to earn a better reputation for hybrid breeders in general, and to help future hybrid breeders get a solid footing when they start out... But we need a leader.

I was hesitant to say anything, but here's my thought, and I think it was already mentioned once. I am a registered breeder thru ACR, and have already registered my cal king female, because she will be used to make jungles (I hope).

I personally think registries are the way to go for just about every herp, especially hybrids. Now, I know not everyone would register, or even care, but imagine if most of the big hybrid breeders did? Let's just pretend every hybrid breeder registers their snakes. With pictures and detailed backgrounds. One could look up any pairing already tried and see pictures of the offspring, or trace how genes are inherited in such crosses. The breeders could post observations and other notes on each cross.

Ok so that's my perfect world, and I do know it will probably never get there. And even if it does happen there will still be snakes slipping through the cracks, like the snakes that are 75% corn, and look pure. One day someone will sell that as 75% corn, 25% king, then that person will sell it as just 75% corn, then that person will sell it as a corn, and so on.... Info will be lost and maybe a non-pure corn gets into the mix. But doesnt that happen with other snakes?

Not even necessarily talking about purity, but morphs labled wrong, and that gets perpetuated, I saw someone post on the corn forum a little while ago with an amel saying it was sold to them as an amber. There is a possibility that the person selling the snake as an amber really thought it was, because they got it from someone who said it was an amber! Maybe the snakes name was Amber! You can see where I am going with this, I believe there is no 100% foolproof way to make sure this never happens.

There is education, precise record keeping, and honesty that will keep this straight, and as we all know, not everyone has a equal share of all three!

Ok I've rambled on enough!

Thanks!
Sarah

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FireDrake Exotics
www.FireAndLilac.com

I agree registries are nice the only problem I have with the ACR is that they charge for it. I realize that it is a service but at the same time small breeders are less likely to spend the money. Secondly they only handle known corn morphs in genetics. So it would be nice to use them in theory but in order to work well all the additional morphs that can pop up in a hybrid need to be accessible.

I think if we really want to get something like this going it is going to need to be more geared to hybrids from the get go and should be free or only charge a one time fee. I know to start with we would at least need: A list of species to work from, each species would need a list of phases or localities and also a list of genetic traits since all of those will effect the look of the offspring. Since it would be manageable to get at least 8 species into a hybrid in a limited amount of time this should be addressed with in the registry too.

I realize that it will not be foolproof and there, will always be the people who miss identifies a reptile and later sells it but were only human and so that should be expected.

A

that sounds great from the breeders side of things, to have a free registry. But I have a question, how should the registry pay for the printing fees, maintenance of a website, and labor costs (they might even have to pay people to help out with some of these things.) Also postage and supplies to print registration forms and mail them, and software to manage all of the information can get costly. While everything that is "free" sounds better than having to pay for it, I doubt that anyone will be willing to pay all of the expenses of a registry out of pocket to help out a lot of people that don't feel that the registrar's time and service is worth anything. I have known people who started registries (not for snakes) with the best of intentions, and they charged little to nothing for the service, and IIRC the registry lasted all of 2 years (max.) A registry won't do us a lot of good if it does not endure the years.

charlene

Registering the snakes should be free. Web hosting costs can actually be quite small to actually free if the right people are willing to host it. The labor of actually maintaining it should be done on a volunteer basis if they are available. Maintaining the host system and software normally comes with the host though. So if it were at a university we wouldn't need to be worried about host/support at all but thats an if and i'll leave that at that.

Printing a certificate of pedigree should not be free but should really be done third part i.e buyer or seller pays for it but not to the registry there’s lots of companies that will do print on demand and mail it at the same time. If the system has a means of transferring the records between breeder and buyer while remaining on site that would be preferred though.

A

just a comment about having a third party print the registrations - that tends to cost quite a bit more. For one thing, a club can stock up on supplies and buy in bulk. A club may also have alternate funding (fund raisers, advertisers, donations, membership fees etc) that will offset some of the administration costs. A lot of the labor and equipment will also be donated or borrowed.

A third party is most likely only going to do the service in order to make a profit, and when you special order things in small numbers the costs can be astronomical (anything specialized like club seals in order to authentisize the certificates would have to be produced on an individual basis by a third party, they won't produce a mass number in order to save money per seal and have these items sitting around hoping that someone will use them.)

I did have an idea based on something that I found on a mouse breeders website - if we don't care about authentization seals... we could set up the registration certificates as a PDF file (complete with club signatures) and let people print them off at home (unless they want to pay extra for the registry to do it and mail it to them.) The main problem with letting people print off their own certificates, and sending PDF files to them, is that it becomes easy to forge a certificate. This might not be considered a huge issue in the beginning of the registry, since people won't assign much value to a registry until it is established and shows that it will stick around. But later on, ensuring accurate registrations that can be validated as authentic will become more important (to preserve the integrity of the registry itself.) It is too easy as it is to lie about lineage info, and even in closed registries such as the AKC breeders will use papers of a dead pup for a totally unrelated dog of unknown pedigree (often times not even the same color dog, lol.) So there would need to be SOME measures taken to ensure that records are not changed or faked (someone could theoretically copy a certificate and change the breeder info, the parentage info, the age of the snake, etc.) Someone could even forge a registration for a snake that they don't own (such as showing the snake coming from a well known breeder) in order to promote their line. But again, this might not be a major concern in the initial stages of the registry.

charlene

Do you not think the ACR makes a profit? They charge you for just about everything on that site. I think people would be willing to pay a little more for getting their certificates if the rest of the site was free.

However, at the moment I don’t see the need for certificates for hybrids if the records are kept online and transferable to the buyer then there shouldn’t be any problem with forging. I would say go paperless. If someone wants to print a registration off the site then they can.

I think if the right people are found to help out the fees can be almost nothing. Any one know of any universities working in this general hybrid field?

A

Yes it costs money, but they have to, there is no way around it. You have to pay to register your dog, cat, horse, rabbit, goat, sheep, cow, pig, birds.... so why not snakes?

And the ACR very much allows for new morphs and genetics. Now when hybrids are concerned, just put the morph in the comments box, and that is permanent and accesable to all!

Sarah
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FireDrake Exotics
www.FireAndLilac.com

I meant ACR is not able to handle everything we need right now. We are not talking about just corn hybrids here. People are working with blood python x ball python, king x milk, and a heap of others. ACR only works with cornsnake morphs and do to that they don’t track the needed morphs for other species people are working with.

A

i think micro chipping can go aong with record keeping, and the chips cant be lost. high end herps microchips their hybrids
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jake

my addiction:
0.0.2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1.0 amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

Ahhh, but, did you know there are a few different kinds of microchips out there? Two, Home Again and Avid have scanners that can at least alert the person that the other chip is used. For example, We use Home Again at the vet hospital where I work and when we scan an Avid chip, it just says AVID, not the number, but at least we know the dog is chipped. But Banfield The Pet Hospital in their infinate wisdom came up with their own chip and scanner that neither Home Again or Avid can even detect! There was already one lawsuit against Bandfield because they put their chip in a clients dog who was lost, the dog was picked up by the local humane society, and since Banfield had not supplied that HS with a scanner, they thought there was no chip in the dog, and after not being able to find a new home, the dog was euthanized! There is actually legistaltion in the works to make universal scanners available so any scanner can read any chip. If we cant keep it straight in dogs and cats, how can you expect to in reptiles? Dont get me wrong it's a good idea, and if I ever start producing high end animals, I will probably chip them, but the same thing will happen, if the snake passes enough hands, someone will forget to mention the snake is chipped!

Boy I sound all pessimistic dont I?

Sarah
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FireDrake Exotics
www.FireAndLilac.com

if you chipped a hatchling blizzard corn you wouldnt need a reader just hold it up to a light and youll see its chipped.
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jake

my addiction:
0.0.2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1.0 amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

www.[url ban] sells hybrids and also tells you the genetics
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jake

my addiction:
0.0.2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1.0 amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

whats the name of the site not the url?

>>whats the name of the site not the url?

i think he is talking about aaareptilesupply
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************* Oh no its Me again *************

i definetly agree that we have to do something that makes hybrids come off better. but in my honest opinion the only thing that will help is time. hybrids have been around for along time but for the longest time it was for research only. now that it is in the hobby world we just have to keep "our" records and hope others do to. one problem i see is that some hybrids look alot like normal animals, but that may be one breeders goal, and we wont be able to tell them no. for instance, i "wanted" to produce a hybrid between a anery corn and a sinaloan/nelsons in order to make a hybrid that looked like a anery nelsons/sinaloan but i changed my mind when i bought my sinacorn, he looks awesome just the way he is and an anery version will work just fine. but some breeder will want a snake that looks pure but in a mutation that is presant in the pure snakes current gene pool. we must preach to our selfs and others the importance of record keeping and let hybrids run their course. they are here to stay and we just have to do what we can to help it grow in popularity, because popularity is what determines everything in all hobbies.
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

I’m not say we should be telling people not to do this or that but we should promote certain things over others. I’m not one to stand in a person’s way if they want to say breed a hybrid Leucistic Kingsnake that looks like a pure Kingsnake but doing that will perpetuate problems that people are already worried about within the pure community.

When hybrids were not as popular and mostly used in academic settings there was less to worry about since most advocate hobbies just never saw them. I agree time is of value in letting the water calm down but it will always take longer if people keep throwing large pebbles in. My thinking is if we reduce the size of the pebbles then less people will get upset and in time they will be more accepting of those larger pebbles.

A

I dont think limiting the hybridist (which just really cant be done anyhow) is not the answer. The answer is that the anti-hybridists have a belief system. Nothing you do is going to change the hardcore, and it is that element that you really need to be most concerned with because they use emotionality to try to "whip people up" against it. There is really no stronger method, as misinformation, twisting of facts and ignorance collide into an emotional response. This very method can allow madmen to be elected to high office and institue insane policies, religious leaders to initiate pograms, genocide, jihad and all manner of "phobias", which can then be used to translate ideology into action by the ignorant, gullable and easily led who go out and commit violence in the name of the ideology. The key to overcoming fanatics is not to couwtow to them, but to present fact, to continue on and present the fruits of honest labor and show the positive results. Further, in research settings (even if it's just in your garage) to really understand the nature of the geneitcs of the species/species interaction usually requires backbreeding. To me, when I hear the "dont back breed" thing, it sounds just as reactionary as "no hybrids ever" did a few years back. Hybrids have made huge strides in just four years. How do we go further? We keep doing it, showing it, talking about it, studying it and we show the (improved) lines that can be made and the research value in the making process. It is not about the "point" or precentage at which the hybrid is settled in and set true breeding. Rather it is about the quality of the animal and strain that is created from the work. In other words, blind them with brilliance, rather than that other thing that is the opposite of that.
BDR

Ok it sounds harsher then what I really mean and I’m not saying it as a reactionary statement I’ll try to clear up what I’m saying so maybe people will understand it a little better.

If your working towards a goal in a breeding that one thing especially if you know what your doing but I hear a keep hearing people saying, “Hey I have a hybrid that’s A x B, if I breed it back to a part b then should I sell it as a 75%…” that’s what I don’t really like hearing. It sounds to me like that person just wants to breed something and doesn’t really care what it is. Most of the answers I seen on posts like that are, “ya that sounds about right.”

Out of experience in dealing with loaded issues some times a lot has to do about how you say things. Since hybrids are loaded issues for a lot of people we need to watch how we say things and appear to be ultra responsible even if we are only semi-responsible. All it really takes to perpetuate the idea of hybrids polluting pure populations are a few people seeming to be breeding out hybrids with out a clear idea of what they are really doing. We need to appear as responsible breeders if we are going to improve their image and it might go along way in telling people that ask a question like that. Have you really thought about that? It would be a 75/25 but maybe you should think about acquiring another hybrid of the same type to breed it to. Or maybe open up some dialog like what exactly are you looking to do in breeding those two snakes? If they reply educate them a little about what’s going on. Education is the key to dispelling myths.

I realize that backcrossing is an important tool to breeders especially when introducing new traits or cleaning up a line and I wouldn’t want to take that away from them. So all I’m suggesting we try not to over do it with backcrossing and if some joe shmo askes about breeding random hybrids to pure that you educated them a little about what they are doing and suggest they breed it to a hybrid with similar or better the same lineage.

I would also say try to work a little more with your founding material I don’t know if this will make sense to everyone but if you backcross a 50/50 on both maternal and paternal sides then crossbreed back the best looking sibs from both sides you still end up with roughly a 50/50 mix in the end will at the same time improving the look of the animal but that’s really up to the breeder. Hope that all makes sense..

A

I have read the posts in this thread with great interest. I have been thinking in this direction for a long time and have been quietly working behind the scenes to formulate some working hypothoses. I have been working on preparing a website dealing with snake evolution/genetics/hybridization issues and it will be up within the next few weeks/months. While that may seem like a long time, for me it isnt. I work slowly. Just ask Bluerosy. I have been communicating with him for four years and there have been long gaps in between contact, which I'm sure he thought meant I had permanently disappeared. I have been working through that time to come to a sound understanding of the evolution of the "big three" North American colubrids. I have been studying fossil records in addition to reports on phylogeny and clade structure to come to a sound understanding of the origins of these three groups. Part of the web site will deal with this aspect of the issue. I think that will help many to understand more about the plasticity of this whole group.

Now then, I think you are all on target with wanting to do some PR and improve how hybrids are perceived. However, I first want to mention this. While some may be able to discuss this issue reasonably from either side, the majority of the "against" groups are having an emotional reaction and thus can not discuss the issue. They can only fume and fight and get fanatical. It is that (and not just with snake groups and boards) that has made me really leeryof "discussing" on boards. I rarely do it and I rarely will. However, I do watch the boards and I have been pleased to see growth here and more civility and less sniping and "hate-commentary". This though I would advice first and foremost. Do ot give in to the immaturity of emotionalism. You must all learn to discuss this from the aspects of science, study, domestication and with detachment. Most of the "anit" group want to stir up[ a biog emotional debate, based on as little fact and as much emotionalism as possible, and create a "ground swell of ignorance and predjudice" to give hybrids a bad name. Hybridists can best protect themselves and "look better" by simply not engaging this behavior. So my advice; discuss rationally. Do not emotionalize and do not let yourslelves get drawn into emotional battles. Ignore the childishness and back your positions up with research and records.
I will be posting more in a couple more posts on this thread, but I want to make each of these focused and to the point. More to come.
BDR
Panoplia Geneticus

forum then you know i have been involved in an "emotional" arguement on hybrids in their. it isn't a good thing and i know this but it kept sucking me in asking me to argue more. my biggest problem is that i dont have the proper worder to argue the point sensably, i am going to try to stay out of the debates from now on do to that point. it even got to the point of semi-personal attacks that i am ashamed i took part in i got really defensive and this does not help our cause. so i know exactly what your refering to.
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

How true... Sadly.

This though I would advice first and foremost. Do ot give in to the immaturity of emotionalism. You must all learn to discuss this from the aspects of science, study, domestication and with detachment. Most of the "anit" group want to stir up[ a biog emotional debate, based on as little fact and as much emotionalism as possible, and create a "ground swell of ignorance and predjudice" to give hybrids a bad name. Hybridists can best protect themselves and "look better" by simply not engaging this behavior. So my advice; discuss rationally. Do not emotionalize and do not let yourslelves get drawn into emotional battles. Ignore the childishness and back your positions up with research and records.

You always say what I ant to but I cannot put it into words as as you can. I want to commend you on your other post above this one. You have a great ability to pick out the truth of the issues. I hope these post will be remembered (heck and even copied and saved)to help some of us to better communicate to others. The anti-hybrid discussions will be around for a while. With the brow beating that goes on (see I remembered you old posts ) we can pinpoint and give a well reasoned out approch to those that are instigating. I hope you don't mind me or anyone else using some of your words to educate the poor in spirit. It surely will help bring some much needed education to this field of herpetoculture.

What we are seeing is the beginning of domestication. From the first successful captive breeding, all that has followed is the very early stages of evolution. Now a great many herpers look at the hobby as "conservation", but plastic shoeboxes arent much of an environment in which to reinforce natural instincts, behavioral patterns, and adaptive skills. Every individual will change subtly in a new environment and over generations, any change in environment causes a change in the species. That is called evolution. In captive conditions, this leads to domestication, as the subsequent generations loose their natural behaviors. This has been extensively noted in zoo settings, with animals loosing many behaviors in as few as two to three generations. This is also one of the unspoken problems with "wild release programs". Unless the release is done after a short few generations, changes may have already occurred to make the introduced beings in question unsuited for the environment of their wild ancestors. In an extreme example, imagine wild releasing poodles to reintroduce the wolf into an artic environment devoid of wolves.

Now, most herpers seem not to have a background in the domestic animals, or if they do, tnhey are not putting 2 and 2 together. I have seen very little reference, or serious discussion, about this aspect of reptiles in captivity. I specialize in the subject of domestication. Thus, it has always been obvious to me what is really afoot with the herps. I would advice all of you to go to my web site and read over the section on domestication. Fromit, you will begin to draw some paralleles to what is happening in herps. The link to the main site is at the bottom of the page.

A good many domestics emerge from intergradation and hybridization; the horse, cattle, dogs, some chickens, sheep and goats, to name but a few. In the wild, new species can emerge through hybridization/intergradation. That is called reticulate evolution and generally occurs in situations of extremis or disrupted habitat. The red wolf (canus lupus x canus latrans). In captivity, hybrids can and often do lead to domestic forms, though certainly, domestics can emerge from single species domestication as well. Both methods lead to domestics. However, most of the development of domestics occurred in the distant pasts, the mysts of prehistory. We do not have active records of most domestications and thus we have had to peice it together through inferred phylogenies, fossilary evidence and now, through dna analysis. However, with the herps, it is happening right now, before our very eyes.

So what does this mean for "locality" and "purist" breeders? It means they have to work much harder and go much farther than the rest of us do, because they want to preserve a species, subspecies or regional variation intact, as it is in the wild. However, keeping snakes in plastic boxes or glass tanks is not going to cut it and these people need to develop very complicated methods of housing and maintainance that will allow the specimens to remain intact on everylevel, not just visual appearance, with the final outcome being a domestic that looks like wild animals frrom X, Y or Z location. The "[reservationist" carries a huge burden and will have to be much more focused and dediocated in order to not loose the entire nature of their captives.

On the other hand, the breeder of domestics (originated through mutations in "pure" stocks or through hybridization) does not have to consider habitat or keeping the animal in "proper behavioral condition" for it's origination environment. The domestic breeder can focus on whatever traits they choose, they can study whatever they want and can breed in any directions desirable to them. I would suggest that this has only just begun and that great things lay in store for anyone who thinks outside the box and pursues this subject with seriousness and a broad understanding.
BDR
Panoplia Geneticus

thanks kingmilk, great post.

I think that the notion of developing registriesis good and bad. I think that an umbrella organization for every herp is a good startingh point, to fight restrictive and unfair legislation etc. I am leery though of registries, because they have reeked such havoc to the genetic integrity of so many of the domestics. For a registry to work, their must be outcrossing and upgrading allowed; i.e., any cornsnake can be bred to any cornsnake, to produce more cornsnakes, etc, add infinitum. Closed registries are a death blow to a breed. If you dont believe it, just research the AKC and it's disease ridden, bottle necked, moving toward extinction breeds.

I do though, think that clubs and organizations are good, if they actually promote the whole range of a hobby or subject and not just a particular focus or outlook. My ideal would be an umbrella organization with two or three major branches. These would be 1. "pure" animals bred for conservation of "species", 2. "domestic cultivars" of any species, which are not applicable to be grouped with the conservation animals and 3. Domestics of hybrid origin. The later then would be bred into actual phenotypes and these could then be named. A fourth category might be animals for genetic research and could span the other three groups. This would be the ideal, and everyone would support everyone else in what they do, because they were all herpers, and all thusly equally effected by bad legislation, stupid herp-haters and the like. They would not war over who is "right" or "wrong" or over unprovable "beliefs", but would stand together as herpers, even if working in very different areas.

I think the work of the purists and localitiests and conservationists is very important. I am behind it 100% percent, but not to the extent that theyare "right" and others are "wrong". There is no right or wrong here. There are just different pursuits and goals and styles. SO really, everyone needs to get over it and marvel at where thehoby has gone in 50 years or less. That is truly remarkable.

I also think those working withhybrids can shed important light on phylogenies, can demonstrate relationsships that otherwise could nto be conceived and in the process, can create domestic lines of herps that are not impacted in any way by "conservation legislation". For instance, you acn not keep a cornsnake or eastern king in georgia, but you can keep a cross of the two, in fact, as many of those as you want. This is not the only state with such restrictions. They restrictions are likely to increase over time too. So the hybrids provide the door way to keeping domestic strains of herps which are not impacted by such laws. That in many ways will allow the herp trade and hobby to continue when the keeping of naturally occuring NA species decreases further.

So, everyone needs to be thinking about the development of new and(relatively) true breeding populations from their hybrid work.
More to come.
BDR
Panoplia Geneticus

True and you make good points but I don’t think they would really go for being lumped together like that until the image of hybrids is cleaned up a little. I would suggest getting the research and hybrids to start the site and if enough good information comes out of it then the pures and locality people will start wanting to get more info out of the system.

I don’t really like strict pedigree breeding myself. I think what is needed though is a registry that is open to experimentation with breeding but in a respectable manner so that something can be learned from doing it. I think the actual pedigree thing is coming though I fear the day my local herp shows gives out ribbons for the best looking amel cornsnake.

A

So now, there are many questions that need to be answered. First, we need to take a look at the entire group of the NA and related colubrids and create a basic genetic diagram of patterns/colors and interactions (I have this prepared in part for the new web site). Then, we need to do test matings to determine dominance/recessiveness and single/multigenic properties of the "species" traits. Thus, every f1 mating should be well documented and if possible, those f1 should be mated to produce an f2 to notate the occurrance of segregation of traits in the f2. This can be continued further of course and thus would only shed more light on the dominance and recessiveness of various common traits across this closely related group.

There are a whole range of tests that need to be done and documented. I would like to see data on every species bred with every other species and then those crosses, both bred together and also bred back to each parent species to determine segregation paterns. There is so much useful genetic information on the evolution of these basic patterns that could be deduced in tis way. The big question is this; are similar patterns do to common ancestry or do they derive from parallel evolution. Genetic segregations of traits can go a long way to answering this.

One section I will be presenting at the new snake section of my web site is a basic system fr notation and record keeping. I would love to be able to evaluate a range of such matings and would be willing to work with anyone privately on such.

What I describe above is called 'testmating' and is used to derive answers to how particular genes are related and interact. This then gives the segregation patterns and can establishdominance/co-dominance/recessiveness as well as allelism. One mating, the "jungle" that has already given us this kind of information is that the gene for albinism in the cornsnake and the cal king is alleleic. That is a ratehr shocking thing from a genetic standpoint if these "species" are really so very discreet.

Beyond testmating for research and to establish the order of genes amongst these very closely related colubrids, the further point should be breed establishment. This was talked about alot in the above posts and I found myself fascinated and a litle troubled. It has been interesting to watch this argument evolve over time and now it seems the fashion is "we can live with hybrids so long as they are obvious and never bred back to either species to confuse". OK. I can see the logic, but that actual backbreeding in fact can produce some of the most profund information and actual cultivars could be established through such,. THe important point is integrity; the producer recording and defining these as what they really are. I dont have a problem with multiple backbreeding. What worries me is the naming. I am leery of the use of the terms "corn", "king", "milk", "bull", "pine", "gopher", etc, add infinitum, in the naming of any of these new hybrid strains. Surely we are more creative! I think the breeder should be free to go anywhere, as well as the researcher. What I feel is important is the naming of such animals.

Mention was made of indentification of animals. A point to consider is that microchipping could well be considered. It is used to identify many animals and registry groups to premanently identify an animal. It goes under the skin, is small, discreet, easy to apply and is relatively inexpensive.

In developing "breeds" from hybridization, there are many points to consider, and some of these are not general considerations in most reptile breeding at this time. I will go over some of them next.
BDR
Panoplia Geneticus

Great post it was exactly on point with what I was thinking would be the blessings of knowledge a undertaking like this would help illustrate and prove out. This is actually the part of hybrids that fascinates me the most.

I’ve thought about chipping for ident but unless you have a reader for the chip it doesn’t really help much. If they came standard on say cellphones I would be all for it.

I think most herp people just like herps in general I think the single thing they don’t like about hybrids is that they seem just done on a whim right now. I think the waters would calm a lot if they saw a purpose to the hybridization, knowledge or otherwise something just as worthy. I think the thing right now that bothers me the most about hybrids even with loving them is the industry names. It really gets me going when I see names like creamsicle corn not followed by their hybrid lineage.

I posted a response above somewhere explaining a little more about exactly what I meant by limiting backcrossing. I don’t mind it if its done reasonably and I realize it will be necessary thing to do in some cases but if we can in anyway sway some people away mainly those who don’t know what they are really doing from over doing it. Then I think it would be a good thing in the long run.

A

Now, finally, I want to look at this aspect. If we are making the hybrids to begin with, then that can not be the end in and of itself, as interesting as that is. There was a point when it was realy cool to have made a hybrid, and the f1 hybrid could be oogled over as an oddity. Those days are drawing to a close and the wow factor is cooling off. Now it is time to really consider where to go from here.

In the lines of research, which I have already discussed, I believe that making more f1 hybrids is essential, but attempts should be made by those who have the talent and/or inclination to make hybrids that have not yet been seen, and to go through a few generations of sib/sib mating and intergression back to both parent species to determine the genetic modes of inhertitance and alleleism. Once that has been done, then those lines can be bred as is, as "what ever" (and please, be creative!), or intergrated on into other (Preferably hybrid) lines to create new phenotypes. This has already been done extensively by the cornsnake people with the creamsicle and it's descedant varieties, and too with the frosted and it's varieties. The greyband and milksnake folks have done this some as well. In those instances it was done to bring a mutant allele into the species, such as amelanism. These create what I would call cultivars based on a species. This is generally well known.

By developing a sound basis of knowledge of the genes of these animals and understanding their dominance order, gene combination and interactions and possible recombinants, many new phenotypes could be produced. However, is that enough? To just go on this long, endless quest for new looking snakes to please an endlessly bored herp public? Or is there more that could be achieved? The results of other domestications indicate that there is much more that could be achieved. These are the points that most herpers are not going to be aware of. To preface this, just always remeber this; all breeding is selection. Everything. That which you select for increases yet that which you do not select for is also being influenced, because you are not give it any attention of selection criterion. So what other things can be modified?

There are many traits to consider in domestics. I will list some of these now;
reproduction
fertility
calmness
high number, production of eggs
ease of egg production
size of neonates
ease of feeding neonates
hardiness
ease in feeding
adaptability to various styles of husbandry
males willing to breed any female
temperament
breeding behavior
ophiophagy
disease resistance
generalistic feeding habits
size (smaller or larger)
double clutching (or more) and the ease of double clutching
non-egg binding

There are many other traits that could be selected for. Always remember that selection is more than just looks. I am already seeing lines that are getting inbred (especially in locality animals) and that are starting to show typical inbreeding depression and the emergence of deleterious factors as a result. By paying attention to these points and not just the looks, our lines can be greatly improved, and not just continued. Improvement should be the goal of all breeding efforts. The development of breeds from hybridization of species should focus on improvement in the overall sense most of all. Then, through time and selection, the hybrid-derived breeds can truly outpace the other types and create a real group of domestics of improved quality. That is what domestication is all about. This also will serve to set hybrids apart, define them from the existing "specias breeds" or cultivars, and give the originators of such lines more respect and a place in the herp hobby and trade well into the future.

There are breeders out there who have been doing this type of breeding for a good while now and are getting some fabulus results. Some are even getting breeds started, and they look very nice. I hope they are considering these other factors as well, and not just what looks best and can bring in the most money.

Anyone who would like to contact me ( and not just throw fits about me "liking hybrids" can do so through my web site.

BDR
Panoplia Geneticus

Fantastic Posts By Kingmilk
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************* Oh no its Me again *************

henry dean of henry's house of snakes. i was just talking to him about the same thing. i am going to purchase a pair of syspila x knoblochi, but they are smaller snakes and since they have syspila in them they are hard to get started feeding, i told henry they look great but i dont think i would cross them do to that fact but instead see what i could add to them to help the neonates get started easier.
adam
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

when you hear can i breed x to y because i have both and want to breed, i always seem to think maybe this is a person who is new to the hobby and possibly does not have alot of money to properly get into breeding and all they want are more snakes. i mean honestly that is how i got into breeding corns in the first place, was just to get more for me. i feel it is these people we need to really help, not discourage them by any means these are the people who dont have opinions on the subject yet. they are obviously interested in the subject at least to a point if we educate these people then maybe we can reduce the amount of anti people in later years. just my thoughts
adam
farfrumugen@verizon.net
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

a few months ago on this forum when i first learned that hybrids were possible i asked if my corn would breed with my ball python. but now i understand alittle better how things work.
-----
jake

my addiction:
0.0.2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1.0 amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

I see what you are saying and I’m still taking that into consideration. I think people that have questions like that should be mentored a little. Education is a great asset to people that are getting started.

Ask them questions:
What do you want to accomplish out of breeding those snakes?
What do you plan on doing with the offspring if you succeed?
Are you planning to start a hybrid breeding project or is this a one time thing?

Use your judgment if it sounds like they are just doing it to do it then maybe they should be persuaded into not backcrossing them but if they have a goal and need the backcross to reach it then give them the support they need.

If they are new to the hobby and want to get into breeding maybe let them know that some breeders offer stud services. Stud services are a great way to get some nice morphs to start with. I would like to see people to be informed breeders especially when it comes to working with hybrids.

A

I have read over the replies to my posts from last night and wanted to post a short follow up.

My point with the extreme anti-hybrid group is that no level or "responsiblity" or "not backcrossing" is going to improve the imagine in their eyes. They are going to hate them no matter how they are bred, no matter how responsibly they are bred. I dont think back cross to a parent species is the problem, it is just the latest bi***ing point in that group, the latest attempt to arouse the uneducated and fear-monger. Nothing will placate them, so my suggestion is to not even worry yourself about this and to simply move forward with what you want to do. But I can agree to disagree and I won't harp on this one point further.I'm not getting stuck in semantics with someone who I basically agree with, lol.

In that vein, do you see any of the major breeders of the best hybrids here posting? Not really, or at least rarely. That is because many have learned to just avoid a forum this public. They will often talk to you in private, but not in public. There is a reason for that. If people dont know what your doing, then they cant latch on to a specific point like "backcrossing" (and trust me, just a few years ago it wasnt backcrossing, it was just making hybrids. Backcrossing is just the latest fixation manifestation). My recommendation would be that if you want serious discussion, free open exchange of information and such, then someone needs to set up a hybrid board that is not affiliated with any commercial sites and is not public. It must be moderated and the posts only available to registered members. In that way, no one feels threatened, and you just might develop an organization or at least a breeding club from such an endeavor. Most of us just dont want to fool with the public, even if we would like to talk to and share with new people who share our interests. I have learned to do this with people from all the different animal realms I work with, not just snake people. My rule of thumb; dont trust anyone in any hobby until you have known them and observed their work and integrity for a few years (most people want something from you and this weeds them out. If they follow through on their ideas and learn some on their ow, or at least enough to talk to you, then they might have potential and the flow of information can occur) I do not think I am the only person who thinks this or uses such criterion in their sharing of information. Most of us have gone through it the hard way to learn what we know and were vociferously opposed by everyone at every turn, so much of this knowledge is hard earned. With that said, I have been preparing information now for a few years to share, as I do see a new generation of hybrid interested hobbiests emerging and hybrids are gaining a measure of acceptance that they have never had. (I had my first jungles over 20 years ago, from Lloyd Lemke).

Here is another thought. I realize the big umbrella organization for everyone is not going to happen. But that is my ideal. I am not suggesting it, just giving you the vision of my perfect world. I realize I dont live there. Even if the three segments I mentioned in the earlier post were very seperate, hostile and violently opposed to each other, there should still be a big umbrella organization that all herper groups are part of to protect the rights of herpers. Enough on that though, as it aint gonna happen and my best guess is that those of us with this interest need to just go off and play by ourselves. One thing that would help so much would be for hybridists to just get something going on their own and forget the rest of them. Why do we need their approval? Or their acceptance? Or even their tolerance? There are no laws against making hybrids and I dont think anyone could ever get that passed. Further, hybrids are actually LEGAL in a great many areas where the SPECIES are NOT. Now just stop and think about that for a minute. In some states, a locality animal from that state cannot be kept in that state, but a hybrid of that locality animal with something else can. Counter-intuitive? You bet, but still a fact, and as the environment continues to deteriorate through manmade disaster and climate change, those knee jerk laws attempting to do good by restricting the well intentioned will only increase. Us, with our hybrid domestics will not face any of those problems. You can bet the popularity of hybrids is only going to increase as those laws increase. I already know people who only got into hybrids because they woke up one day to find out their huge collection of locality animals from that state or their huge cornsnake collection was suddenly illegal, but by crossing those animals, they were completely legal.

In regards to who is actually to bear the greater burden of "proof", it is definately the purist/localitiest. They are the ones making claims of purity. It falls upon them to assure they only use pure, proven locality animals and that no other blood ever gets into their lines. It is not my responsibility to prove anything. My animals have nothing to do with ecology, conservation or anyone else's "purity" obsession. I dont sell snakes. I feed off excess snakes to the ophiophagus. I dont release snakes. I have no responsibility to anyone; not to the hobby(I am only marginally part of it), not to "customers" (I dont have any)and most certainly not to "purists" (I have nothing they would ever want anyhow). In reality, I dont even consider myself part of the same hobby, except in the most general sense that I have snakes. To me, the purist is a conservationist while I am a domesticatition. The only similarity is that we are both doing this work with squamata.

I would have to say that in regards to "registries" or "clubs" or whatever, I would suggest that the "purist/conservationist/localitiest" organizations should consider not allowing their members to own any morphs or hybrids. I would also suggest that these people should probably be strongly encouraged to only work with one species, or one locality even, in order to maintain enough animals to keep genetic diversity and that their setups should be highly specialized in order to keep the snakes instincts and behavioral evolution in place. These might even include large "bio-type" encloseres, where the natural prey and perhaps even a predator or two are kept in order to mimic nature to the greatest extent possible. Otherwise, the posssiblity of crossing is always there (if they keep anything other than pure/local or even several types of pure/local). Further, if they are just keeping these "pure"/"locality" animals in plastic boxes, then this environmental change will actually change the nature of these animals turning them into pure derived domestics with no real relevance to conservation efforts.

One last thought on that line; with the potential of global warming and the breaking up of travel paths due to human development, I question conservation in that I highly suspect the vast changes of bio-type due to climate change will make wild-releasing/reintroduction a moot point. If the habitat is gone, where do you release it? Do you find an area that is "like" the original habitat, even if the species did not originally occur there? Or do you bring in "wild, pure, locality" forms to introduce in to the modified bio-type because it can survive there where the original species no longer can? If that is the case how "natural" is any of that? Isnt it then in reality terrascaping? I am not saying that conservation and pure breeding are not worthy pursuits. I think they are, but I think there are a lot of questions not being considered, and lots of heads going right into the sand, avoiding these sticky issues. In the end, I think there are going to end up being domestic lines that are visually "locality", but in time I dont think the "locality" pure lines will be able to hold up to the genetic bottleneck they start from and outcrossing will occur, with more importance being the visual phenotype, than actual location. Just my opinion though. But without proper effort to keep the snakes instincts and behaviors intact, the "conservation" is a touch moot and the "visual species" domestic is highly likely.

So, in the end, what do we do? We do what we are doing. Dont worry too much about the perception of the hobby. Present a good face, try to have integrity and realize we're all human and move on and dont worry about it. Remain detached when confronted or provoked and move into a more private working situation where those with real knowledge are not very disinclined to participate. Keep breeding and in time, the well selected domestics will set the "industry standard".
BDR
Panoplia Geneticus

I figured I give all this a go and see if we could get the ball rolling a little. How many of you think that a forum just for hybrids and their continuing development in the herp industry would be a good starting place.

A

Yes, I think that would be a good idea, but even more importantly is a data base(perhaps as an adjunct to a messeage board) that gathers up data on what has been hybridized, what the results were in f1, f1 x f1 (f2) an the back breedings to each parent species. Further, then one can deduce what HASNT benn crossed, then atempts can be made. Theoretically, those which are most distant will not even produce offspring, far apart but of a common root may produce offspring, but little or no fertility and high incendence of disroders/deformities/dead in egg (i.e., chromosomal mismatch), while those that are closely related willproduce offspringand they will be fertile from 50% to 100%. There are many such crossingsthat have not been done and they should be togather data. That data can then be used for taxonomy considerations (i.e., relationships/phylogeny) and also to help set stadards as to what hybrids can and should be made from( i.e., what crosses work and do not produce deleterious effects which must be avoided).
BDR

Sounds right on point. I started setting up a forum for this but found out today that they will not give SQL data dump out for security reasons and that would make it impossible to preserve the data if the host needed to be changed. So I’m back to the drawling board with looking for a suitable host. In the mean time I have left the forum is running and is located at Hybrid Breeders Association. I’m thinking that we can use this while we look for a better home for this project to permanently occupy.

I was thinking that ideally we could find a suitable university or natural science museum to host the site/database and in return be able to harvest the data for use in their own research projects plus have branding rights on the site. Unfortunately, I don’t think that I have the background to pursue this route. While I can say I understand the value of this data I lack the technical vocabulary to make the case in a proficient manner.

I have already found a small list of universities with programs in similar and possible fields that would be interested. The list is hosted by CNAH and can be found at: www.naherpetology.org/schools.asp?id=1. Does anyone know of any other organizations or research facilities that might be interested in harvesting this type of data?

My thoughts are we can reduce the costs of running this type of operation to near zero for us as well as maximize the scientific integrity of our data by entering into a symbiotic relationship with these types of organizations from the start.

Any help in contacting some of the schools listed on the CNAH site would be greatly appreciated as I'd love to see this project get on its feet and have a good future.

A

I have already found a small list of universities with programs in similar fields that might possibly be interested. The list is hosted by CNAH and can be found at: www.naherpetology.org/schools.asp?id=1. Does anyone know of any other organizations or research facilities that might be interested in harvesting this type of data?

Fantastic! The site looks really good and is an excellent start.I have it on my favorites list and willmake it by as time allows. I can assure you that if the hatemongers are kept at bay and I can discuss concepts without spending all my time defending their validity, I will be there more than I have been here. As to the universities, ...great idea, but I think you are going to get a poor response. Note the word conservationin that title? I doubt they will even be cordial, let alone receptive, but you should certainly try. I have no caontacts to speak of in herp departments. My contacts are through ag, mostly.
Thank so much for your effort in this. I will add a link tothe site I am building ( http://www.panopliageneticus.com/colubrid.html ). I think it is a great start.
BDR

Hi, I tried to sign up, but get an errormessage saying confirmation code was wrong? Let me know how to get on. Email me at onagadori@yahoo.com with info. Thanks!
BDR

for anyone that got that error message I fixed the problem and checked it with a test account. So everything is running like it should now. well with the exception of the chat room that a system wide error that I can't do anything about.

See you all on there,
A

I hear what you are saying; I was thinking that I should pursue it. I thought it, would be best received by people studying hybrid zones, venom toxicology, taxonomy, evolutionary biology and a few other related fields. However, I’m still doing my preliminary research for what fields the data would be most useful for so that I can try to streamline my approach instead of making cold calls. Not to mention that it would greatly help if we got some information down to give a taste of what type of things the group is able to do. After that all it really takes though is finding one interested professor with some budget room that would like to work with the hobbyist/breeder community in a semi-professional method in the pursuit of knowledge.

a