Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What are your thoughts about the effects of relocating snakes in the wild? I had a customer of mine (I do home repair) tell me she was going to kill a black racer that lived near her spa heater. She even shot at it and missed (big hole I her decking Hahaha priceless!!). So I spent about three hours chasing it all over her yard and in and out of the heater. I did catch it and then took it to a state park about 10 miles away. I was thinking about its habits of having a heat source 24/7 and many lizards to feed on in the yard. Now it is out in the real wild.
I was just wondering how long it will take it to readjust to the new habitat. And learn new hunting/feeding skills. Or would it just fall right into its instincts and not miss a beat.
The other thought is do snakes homestead? Was this just one of twenty snakes and was I chasing the same snake all day? Hahaha do snakes in the wild pick out a location and stay in it. The lady said it had been there for two years. I find this hard to believe. But on the other hand the heater was about 3’ tall and had a hole in the side of it about a foot off the ground. This snake went to this hole like it had used it for a long time. Just some thoughts what do you think?
Thanks jason

>>What are your thoughts about the effects of relocating snakes in the wild? I had a customer of mine (I do home repair) tell me she was going to kill a black racer that lived near her spa heater. She even shot at it and missed (big hole I her decking Hahaha priceless!!). So I spent about three hours chasing it all over her yard and in and out of the heater. I did catch it and then took it to a state park about 10 miles away. I was thinking about its habits of having a heat source 24/7 and many lizards to feed on in the yard. Now it is out in the real wild.
>>I was just wondering how long it will take it to readjust to the new habitat. And learn new hunting/feeding skills. Or would it just fall right into its instincts and not miss a beat.
>>The other thought is do snakes homestead? Was this just one of twenty snakes and was I chasing the same snake all day? Hahaha do snakes in the wild pick out a location and stay in it. The lady said it had been there for two years. I find this hard to believe. But on the other hand the heater was about 3’ tall and had a hole in the side of it about a foot off the ground. This snake went to this hole like it had used it for a long time. Just some thoughts what do you think?
>>Thanks jason
>>

I think you should relocate the lady to a mental hospital,(lol). I think the snake will adjust fine.
Thanks for the laugh,
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R.BICHLER http: //www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

I think you should relocate the lady to a mental hospital

This statement is great, but my enjoyment is tempered by knowing that random shots fired at snakes in a neighborhood are a serious safety concern. I'm a pretty strong Second Amendment supporter, and I wouldn't lightly give someone grief about firing a gun. At the same time, firing irresponsibly is bad for all of us and could have hurt someone. If I were a police officer responding to a report of the gun shot, I would not have been impressed with the story that she was shooting at a snake in the spa. I'd be inclined to think that the mental hospital idea was more than just a good joke.

I'm glad to hear that snakes can adjust to being transported. I occasionally find snakes on the road near my house when I'm walking. If I can take them somewhere and release them, then I don't worry about the harmful effects of catching them. The place where I used to put them was bulldozed to make room for FEMA trailers, so I'll be looking for a new place for them.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

You most likely(statistics prove) have killed the snake with a longer torturious death.

There has been a lot of work done recently or reptile relocation. I believe it started when Cal. protected their desert tortosise. The gathered the captives and released them. Only to find most were dead within a year. That sparked further study.

I had been recomending to limit relocation distance or at all for many years. The reason was, my field work taught me reptiles were not Random within their chosen habitat. They have homes, homes for different times and conditions. These homes are to aid survival. They have learned hunting grounds and learned prey items(within their instinctual ranges). They learn where to go in extreme heat, dry, wet, etc. They learn the predators of thier area. All this is within their known range. Or they die.

To move them out of this range puts them at risk again. I say again because they have to learn all this right after they hatched. Most don't and most die(the naive).

Are there options, of course there are. Snakes(reptiles) have behaviors, and one strong behavior is avoiding predators. If you catch that snake, it may take several times(some snakes are boneheads like some people) it will avoid the areas of contact.

My partner in the field is also a captian at a local rural fire department. He has developed a reptile removal protocal that is becoming well known and popular. Hes in GA. right now, but when he gets back, maybe he or I can post a copy.

The basics are, they will only move them a short distance. There are set distances that increase the survival rate. And they attempt to inform the public of the benefits of snakes. cheers

This is what I was wondering. Thanks for the reply!

I had seen the black racers in the place that I relocated the captive before. But after I left and was driving home I started to think (1hr drive) – does that snake have the habits or skills to adjust to a new environment? - The answer hinged on rather or not it had instincts (in its genes) to allow it to function and survive in a new local. Even when it was only a few miles away.

So the difference would be in the uninhabited by humans (woods) VS urban. Not what snakes as a whole do?

So the day to day ramblings of the snake was to live in more than one place. Say it lived in the woods next to the house but moved closer to the house to eat the many lizards that are eating the many bugs that are attracted to the lights of the house and the trash cans around the house. Snake find heat source and uses it from time to time (likes the security of being in it). Then, pulls back to live out in the woods, away from the human contact and the shot gun.

Now it is out in the woods only and unable to use more than half of the habits/skills that if has gained.
So now there is a chance that this snake is stressed out big time. Well I hope for it the best. It does make you think though-this snake was able to adapt to human encroachment but humans are unable to adapt to them! Then the ones who try to help end up doing harm too.
Thanks for the insight
Jason

racer won't have any problems adjusting to it's new neighborhood, after all snakes are very adaptable and resilent.
common racers are found coast to coast they must adapt.

Its been clearly shown time after time in many many relocation studies.

But I guess your thoughts are so much better then actual fact.

One thing it does for us, is ease our minds, we hope they will do well. The problem is, that does not seem to be the case. Its one of those, I helped and its outa sight now. So I feel good.

So get with it and do some research. Either by looking up the numberous papers already published, or marking and recapturing relocated animals. In fact, there is no better chance to learn as re-located animals are already disturbed. Theres no harm. Good luck

Sir, you need to do the research,
May i suggest:

Brown treesnakes

Burmese pythons

Nile monitors

Green iguanas

All the above are enjoying their relocation

cheers!

n/p
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

know the answer to your question and i was only trying to show F.R. that relocated reptiles, intentionaly or accidently relased can and do survive very well!

...they can/do. It is a legal/ethical/practical question that needs to be assesed on an individual case in many instances, but as far as the snakes themselves surviving, I'm sure many can.
I often see the topic come up about releasing cb into the wild to "replenish" the dwindling populations. Sometimes it is brought up that it could be devastating to the wild pop. due to introduced pathogens that the wild are not ready for. I believe it may well be just the opposite, that the cb can't take all the wild occuring baddies and die off. There are "headstart" type programs (mostly turtle) that seem to do well. Let's hope they can work out.
Lots of stuff is not able to be covered in a blanket statement like "it's a death sentence" and so forth.
You can't get specific with generalizations can you?
I would say in my opinion that a s. black racer would do well for himself in just about any setting you could imagine in FL.
Was just saying to a friend that in the end,they and yellow rats may be the last snakes in FL.someday.
I move them from from one area of a complex to another and there's always been another to take his place each time. Wish it was that way with all snakes.
I also see fewer racers as road kill than most.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

np

You and others say, I think/feel/am confident/they should, do well, survive, not die, etc. So far, you all have added something along these lines. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Except and its a big except. The many cases were the relocated individuals were kept track of, they did not survive and they did not in very high percentages.

Sure some did survive, and depending on the distance, some of the survivors found their way back to their pervious range. Again, the vast majority did not survive. And perished in short order.

What is troublesome is, you and others want to base the life of a living animal on your thoughts, heresay, good intentions, and not on real hard facts. That sirs is troublesome.

The reasons are mostly based on emotion, you really want and hope they will live. But you have no real evidence they do. So you theorize in all manner, that they will be OK. Again, against the facts.

And please do not blame me. I do not like the facts(they tend to perish) I would truly wish they would all do well(when relocated). The problem is, they don't.

So if you all really do care about the animals, instead of voicing your hopes and dreams, do some research and find out for yourselves. After all, real living animals lifes are at stake. Cheers

Except and its a big except. The many cases were the relocated individuals were kept track of, they did not survive and they did not in very high percentages.

In these studies, did they have any way of doing a control where they tracked a similar number of the same species of the same age? In other words, if five of six yearling kingsnakes released into an area died within a year of release, releasing would seem to be a bad practice. However, if five of six yearling kingsnakes who were hatched in that area also died, then the life of a released snake is no worse than the life of a native snake. I'm not advocating the capture and release of snakes into different areas, but I would like to understand how bad this practice really is.

I suspect that snakes found in the plant are usually killed by a long wrench, a piece of pipe, or a broom handle. As people get to know of my interest in snakes, I hope that a few of them will let me catch and release any snake that wanders too close to the buildings or process units. If taking them some distance from the plant will only kill them, I'll have to think of another plan.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

There have been lots of studies on many different aspects.

To look at a different angle, neonates have less then 2% change to reach adulthood, in all natural conditions. Remember, thats over long periods, and varies from year to year. So moving neonates does not radically change their chances of survival.

Moving old adults most likely ensures death. Moving young adults may be somewhere in the middle. But all in all, the percentages of survival are very low when moved over certain distances. That distance can and does vary for lots of reasons, So yes, 1/2 a mile is arbitary. But its also a good base.

If I were to coach you on what to do, I would simply say, move them a short a distance as possible and hope they do not return. Good luck

As I said in a post down the board, the discussion is good for me. I've moved snakes that I caught on my road for about a mile. Mostly, I wanted to get them home to take pictures or identify them from a book while I had them in my hands. I'd release them near my home but still about a mile from where I caught them. I'll get them closer to the home spot next time when I can. That part is easy. The work issue will be tougher. From the middle of the plant to accessible woods will be more than half a mile. As you said, I'll just have to do my best and hope for the best.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

At the factory, your only option is to release them as close as possible or use them to replace snakes from being taken out of nature. That is, if you know someone who wants to catch a certain species and you found one at the factory.

About taking them to identify or take pictures. Learn to take your camera with you. And disturb them as little as possible. If they are crossing the road, move them off in the direction they were headed and take pics of them as they go about their intentions.

Consider, and only consider, the more you disrupt them, the greater the chance it has bad effects on them. Also consider, they have no guarantees of living to the next day. Just picture this, How would you fare walking around New York City, if there were no laws, in fact, the only laws promoted killing humans you do not know. Would you want to walk around places you do not know? What would your chances of survival be?

Well nature is worse than that, as its not only their own kind(different gangs) but lots and lots of lions and tigers(so to speak) that all want to eat you.

So its far better to allow them to continue doing the things they know, then to move them to places they do not know. Cheers

I know that you know what you are talking about and having the studies backs up your points. I don't think it's contradiction to your facts though when I wonder about natural catastrophes like for instance Katrina,floods, fires and tornadoes destroying homesites. Sure many die but is it unreasonable to believe despite the studies that the little buggers are like Army rangers, they "Adapt and Overcome" Before an out building falls apart through disrepair 0 snakes live in it. AFTER it falls over it become a home for generations sometimes.

There was a guy here who posted a while ago about a Milksnake that escaped in his aprtment building only to be found like a year later, MUCH bigger and muscular than it's pampered siblings he was raising because it had been thought to have been eating the buildings rodents! An appartment building! Talk about an inhospitable habitat. Isn't some of this just common sense that doesn't have to fly in the face of the studies?
Bob.

There is no question, Katrina killed off millions of snakes and animals. So does droughts, fires, floods, etc.

Also every normal day snakes are dying from starvation, predation, competition, etc. That is their way of life.

Is that what we are talking about? Its much simplier then that. All we are talking about is, people thinking they are saving a snake(good intentions) when in fact, they most likely are not. No more, no less.

Whats amazing to me. Backup, in many cases, the snake would be killed anyway, so its not that big of a deal. OK, forward again, what amazes me is, many of these people have such "hard" beliefs and refuse to "consider" any other possibility. They in fact, are just like the people killing the snake that needs to relocated. There is hard evidence, that relocating is deleterious to the health of the majority of individuals being moved out of their home range.

The process these folks are taking, rationalizing, is the very same process the killers of the snakes are doing. Both refuse to listen to logic, data, commonsense, etc. Anything that differs from their point of view. I think I have to laugh or something. If its not funny, then its really sad. Cheers

I am afraid your not understanding cause and effect. Normally its a void in a eco-system, that allows something to invade. In most of the cases you mention, they are invading desturbed habitat. As in urban habitat. Not natural habitat.

These habitats do not have normal predator prey relationships. There is nothing to control populations and normally plenty of food for the invading species.

Also I am afraid your misunderstanding the animals. They did not adapt to new conditions, the conditions changed to meet their needs. As in, disturbed habitats changed enough to limit native species, but not limit generalize species.

Remember, to adapt is to change. None of the animals you mention changed at all. I am sure if they same for several thousand years, they will change. Cheers

killed that racer by relocating it, maybe in your feeble world not mine,lol! Reptile environments are reptile environments whether they be urban or wild or phoney or real,and snakes do well adapting to all of them. now you may have the last word.

Look it up if your interested in learning or not. It does not matter to me what you think. The important part is, does long distance relocation harm the reptiles? Cheers

When you know the difference between the two, you will better understand the complications involved with relocation, repatriation and translocation.
In short, I believe the snake would have died if left in the circumstance it was in, whether a quick death, from a clean kill, or a slow, agonizing death, from being injured.
I believe each situation should be analyzed, as situation will be unique and I am certain the released specimen has a 50/50 chance of survival, as E. o obsoleta are quite hardy and would make prime candidates for invasive species. ;0)
Also, many states harbor ordinances regarding the relocation, re-introduction and translocation of both native and non-native specimens, so you may wish to contact your local non-game wildlife authority to find out if you are / were / will be, breaking any laws by doing such…

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

You and others are basing your thoughts of how hardy a species appears to be. Racers are hardy, ratsnakes are hardy, etc.

You must consider, all species are hardy or they would not exsist. They are hardy in conditions they are suited for.

And yes, generalized(good sized, consume vermin) snakes are good canidates for being invasive, or at least good canidates for human rural living. Cheers

Dos'nt everyone know the difference btwn macro and micro. You should stay in college, much better than infecting the world with your feebleness.

.

On a side note, I might add that my days as a student were over close to 20 years ago! ;0)

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

what's your specialty?

way to go for full tenure, but my focus is environmental biology and toxicology.
Over the past 25 years I have been highly involved with Drymarchon spp., so I have been trying to keep abreast of the latest data regarding relocation, repatriation and translocation.
I am only a lurker on the king snake forum, but the topic was one I felt inclined to follow and I have found the thread to be quite interesting. It’s great to see some lively debate and so many people devoted to the well being of herpetofauna, even though there might be differences of opinion..

Thank you,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

lucky man to involved in anykind of indigo research.

Thank you,I appreciate the kind words. Unfortunately, my research in now limited to my work with the captive husbandry of the species...

Best regards,

Jeff

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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Careful Jetzen, Jeff has a ton of experience... check out the indigo forum! F.R. and Jeff, I suspect more and more you both are 1/2 right, lol! Don't relocate, except to my snake house!
Todd Hughes

Posted by: JETZEN at Sat Mar 18 19:47:52 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

killed that racer by relocating it, maybe in your feeble world not mine,lol! Reptile environments are reptile environments whether they be urban or wild or phoney or real,and snakes do well adapting to all of them. now you may have the last word.

Right but the main point is by NOT relocating it it would have certainly been killed. That racer is doing just fine .
People want to rain on his parade he did the right thing. A tortoise in CA that is limited to what it can eat and moves at a snails pace is very different than a fast racer that will find food in the area it was released in.

All of the species you have indicated are considered invasive species, which were not actually "relocated" as a conservation effort.
I suggest anyone with an interest in the relocation of herpetofauna review a piece of literature resulting from a study conducted by, Dodd and Seigel (1991); regarding the effectiveness of relocation, repatriation and translocation as effective conservation tools. I will not go into detail here, but the study was perhaps the most comprehensive of its kind and the results indicated the negative impact such methods harbor, regarding their effectiveness as conservation tools.
Also, someone attempted to make an example of Gopherus agassizii (desert tortoise), but the example would not hold, as the incident in CA involved attempts to bolster a declining wild population, by introducing specimens produced in captivity. The problem turned out to be the captive specimens, released into the wild population, harbored an infectious Mycoplasma, which caused URTD among the wild population and was the cause for the demise of several colonies.
The best examples of the negative impact upon herpetofauna, when relocated, can be found in several reports regarding the relocation of Crotalus spp.…

Best regards,

Jeff

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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I was refering to "relocation" as moving reptiles from point A to point B, whether it be intentional or accidental, did'nt i make that clear? And one black racer is not a conservation project,IMO,lol!

I guess even the trained, need to have things explained to them.
If you go back and reread the Desert tortoise event, I said, it brought attention to the effects of relocation. It caused science to take interest and actual studies followed.

About what actually killed of the torts is very debatable. The horse or the cart. Was it their compromised immune system or the pathogen? Which came first and why.

That actually would be a great discussion, also I believe one of the studies you mention of Crots was done on my property, Harry Green and Dave Hardy perhaps? Cheers

Yes, you did indicate the Gopherus agassizii project in CA brought about an interest in "relocation". I indicated this did not hold, becuase it was not relocation, as you suggested, that was reviewed, but rather reintroduction. There is a major difference between the two.
Also, the debate regarding what occurred has been over since 1993, as DNA studies have pin-pointed the problem as originating from the captive produced specimens.
I believe you meant the study conducted by Dave Hardy and Harry "Greene". That would be one, but I can recount almost a dozen others and prefer the work conducted by Dr. Steve Beaupre, though I could be a bit biased, due to my location! ;0)

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

About how much success have the relocation/reintroduction projects been? thanks in advance.

Unfortunately, the projects I have been involved with have been of little benefit to the species involved. One problem associated with such is the difficulty in determining what factors are associated with the extirpation of a species from a given historical range, which must be addressed for such programs to be of benefit. However, I spoke with Dan Speake several years ago, regarding some of his reintroduction projects. He informed me that he had incurred a small degree of success with the reintroduction of D. couperi, but the long term success of the projects are not yet known.
Oh well, in reality, it appears the empirical evidence suggests such programs are not of benefit, but there is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that could suggest otherwise, so I suppose the jury is still out on this one and there are definitely two camps, with a few left straddling the fence …

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

My are we tight, It, the tort debacle, did indeed bring awareness to the effects of relocation, even if in itself was not relocation. Up until that point in time, there was never a second thought about moving reptiles forth and back. So back away from the paper and have a loose look. When lots of individuals died, it brought lots of different approaches into question. ALthough it took years before actual, apples to apples studies took place.

What I find so odd with you is, don't we agree, isn't it not recomended to move individuals long distances from their home range? That is the point and focus of this thread, isn't? The rest is only leading to that point.

What I mentioned about Hardy and greene is, my property was in that study. Just a side note. So yes, I am aware of that, as it occurred on my property and more.

So whats your point? Cheers

You're absolutely correct, we are both on the same page and I apologize for being so “tight”. You know, I do squeak at times, when I walk. I suppose it is an old habit acquired from a few professors I studied under; good gosh, I’ve become my professor! ;0)
Anyhow, you are correct on all accounts, guess I got a bit caught up in the specifics and the spirit of the debate…

No hard feelings?

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

hahahahahahahahaha, Whats confusing on forums is, this was not a debate. To debate is to settle something thru conversation.

There is nothing to settle. Its about being aware of the possibilities to make better actual choices.

When removing snakes for relocation, there is no right, only different degrees of wrong. So all we can do is inform ourselves to make the best choice possible. The actual right is out of the question(I daydream, getting a tractor and flattening the house factory, etc) Cheers

This thread has evolved into an epic discussion over relocation and adaptability. While it a very interesting topic, it is a circular debate. No one is really going to get anywhere here. People have their own opinions and that is fine.

I have one more generalized statement that I would like to throw out there: In the animal kingdom you have animals with distinct home ranges (resident animals) and animals that are constantly on the move (transient animals). If animals where unable to survive in a different location (but similar habitat), the whole concept of transients falls apart.

Now, the issue at hand: Did xbertmouser give this individual racer a fighting chance at survival? I think we can all agree that there are two possible outcomes:

1. Do nothing - The snake dies (by bullet, shovel, boot, whatever)

2. Relocate - The snake MAYBE dies (but maybe he survives)

In this individual case, it almost seems like a no brainer...

Beyond the issue at hand, I'm enjoying the discussion. While the debate may be circular in that we won't reach any consensus, I'm learning things that I otherwise might not have encountered for a long time in my regular reading. I've caught a couple of snakes on the road near my home and transported them a mile before releasing them. Mostly, I wanted to bring them home to try to identify them from a book while I still had the snake in hand. In the future, I'll take them back to where I found them (unless I'm rescuing them from under a bulldozer). Sadly, they're tearing down some barns along my road to build apartments, so a few snakes will probably lose their habitat.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

I opt for leave the snake and try to lift people's awareness of the snake. This was this snake's home, and until discovered, was doing ok. Was it a good sized snake? It may well have been killed, but as in nature probably had a better chance where it was as it knew of hiding spots and is clearing the place of vermin. I know it is almost impossible but if we say nothing we perpetuate the myths and isn't THAT why we do what we do, along with enjoying our snakes? SHEESH! There will always be Bubbas but there will always be bobcats too. Ever see a bobcat kill a snake for fun? It happens.
Todd Hughes

You should consider, transients may not be long lived. They are in search of permanent homes. If they do not find that, they perish.

They normally perish by becoming food for predators, as they roam often and expose themselves to danger. Cheers

Sir, you need to do the research,
May i suggest:

Brown treesnakes

Burmese pythons

Nile monitors

Green iguanas

All the above are enjoying their relocation

cheers!

Oh thats nothing you forgot Cuban treefrogs and other treefrogs . Chameleons-Knight anoles-Kingsnakes-venemous snakes-boas-tokay/house geckos among others.
The list is endless in Miami and ALL propering.

...when i caught him so at lest he got to give some pain my way.haha
nasty bite too! no doubt them teeth were for holding squermn, lizards!
thanks jason

In my our heart, I think its better to die having a chance to survive, then being killed right then and there. Thats what I feel. BUT.

You are not considering the area your releasing them into. If it has Black racers, then those racers have their own ranges, hunting areas, etc, established already. By releasing others into that exsisting population, you are not just messing with the individual that is removed from its own habitat, but now your messing with others.

My personal opinion, is snakes of the same species, cause as much death to their own species as do predators. That is, established individuals protecting their range by chasing other individuals off. The individuals being pushed around are constantly being exposed to danger, be it predators, man, lack of resources, etc.

If watch snake populations, you will most likely notice, a near even split between the sexes in the spring and fall, while mid-summer you find far far far more subordinate males. Of course this does not apply to garders and waters, and maybe racers, but it surely applies to snakes that do not live on the surface, like kings, gophers, milksnakes, etc.

It is happening in all the species, but its noticable in the kings and such, because the subordinates are being pushed out of perferred habitat.

The point is, snakes are territorial, this is proven and understood(sorta) So moving snakes into others ranges is not a good thing. Theres also the possibility of poluting the genetics of the effected populations.

So all in all, its not a good thing.

Between you and me and the doorknob. You could find a disturbed habitat thats already mucked up and fill it up with removed snakes, hahahahahahaha. Not really a good idea, but not so bad either. Real biologists will spank me for this paragraph.

Cheers.

If you were in the situation that was originally described, what would you do? I realize that the best solution is to talk people into letting the snakes live on their property. Unfortunately, that effort isn't always successful.

Interestingly enough, people around here seem pretty protective of the speckled kings in their barns. The outside image of Louisiana is of rednecks and Cajuns who would kill snakes without thought, but that image doesn't square with the reality that I'm finding.

I know of a pet store near where I live that would take any snake that I brought in, but I think my CalKing is the only snake that has left that store alive. Their gopher snake still looks pretty good, and their desert kingsnake is looking better. However, I'm still not sure that giving a snake to that store isn't the same as killing it. There's a nature center near where I live that will take some snakes, but their resources aren't without limit. I guess I could sell a snake in the classifieds if I had to move it and didn't want to keep it.

When you mentioned disturbed environments, would a new outbuilding qualify? For instance, a tool shed put in a previously bare backyard should be a net increase in habitat. The shed will attract lizards, and a snake could live under the shed eating the lizards where before no snake could make use of the open yard. In that case, would putting a snake under the shed cause a problem?

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Well, I have property, and I turn them loose on my property. Its urban ranch. So its not really natural but supports snakes.

Find somebodys unnatural setting, like a farm or property, a place that has an understanding owner and release them there. I am sure that would not be to hard to find. Again, biologist will spank for for suggesting that. But Oh well. Cheers

Cats are death to snakes and make 'em mean! 50/50 proposition at best. Bye bye local lizard population.
Todd Hughes

I agree with FR's statement for the most part. There have been a lot of studies showing that relocation, especially a great distance away, may be a death sentence for the snake. I have heard that the snakes should not be moved more than 1km, but that just seems like an arbitrary number to me. This is clearly something that is dependent on a number of factors: species of snake, distance of movement, habitat it was taken from and moved to, etc.

It is my understanding that the principle factor that kills relocated snakes (especially crotalids) is that a common den site is used year after year. If relocating the snake inhibits the ability to find its den site, the snake will likely die in the cold of winter since it can't find its old den to undergo brumation.

So my question is, what about snakes that don't use dens and are active year around? Especially in places like S. Florida? Or what if you move the snake from an area where he was likely living off lizards (the big heater) to an area like agricultural fields where a better food source (mice, rats, rabbits) is in abundance? Maybe you've helped this snake?

It sounds like this woman eventually would have got a lucky shot off. If someone tells me they are planning on killing a snake in their yard, I would take a chance and relocate it as well. I would try for a wild area fairly close to where the animal was found though.

Just my 2 cents...

At least I was told by more than one person that Florida law prohibits the transfer of a snake off the property that it was captured on. The failing in this is that some homes are on 1/4 acre and some are on 200 acres. From what I understand though the legislation on the books will not allow you to cross property lines with a snake and release it. You can take it the corner of the property and urge it to leave.

This is completely unenforced much like the exotics law because law enforcement has to see you release the animal first hand to arrest you.

I have to agree with Frank on this though that moving a snake very far will cause its death or the death of another snake. I have heard that a given are will have all the fauna it can support if left alone. Intruding fauna will be chased off by its on species because of this and if the invader has nowhere to go it has to fight back. The resident usually has the upper hand by knowing the lay of the land but sometime the invader wins and the resident has to move on or die.

This is well known in alligators in Florida. Relocated animals where often killed by gators in a short time of introduction. The smaller ones where often eaten.

Later Jason

Relocation always makes for an interesting discussion. In this case, we are talking about a black racer. Moving a single snake to a large wild area, where this species is probably already present in good numbers, is not going to upset the balance of that area. Looking at the big picture, 1 more racer in an area that probably has hundreds, is pretty insignificant. Yes, there is a chance that the racer that has been moved may not survive. But, if you don't move it, it sounds like the snake is sure to catch a bullet anyway. So why not take the chance (provided that you are not going to upset the balance where the snake is moved...which I don't think you would in this case)?

If you add in the fact that the snake was driven somewhere, which means it was close to a road, and racers are frequently road kills, then there is likely a spot open and this one will survive. But this is all speculation and the fact remains that problem could occur.

I bet he didn't hold the snake in his hand the whole way. So what else was in the snake bag since it had last been washed?? Anything foreign?? It seems like a big deal over nothing but the way things are going now a days it might not be.

When I moved snakes for people I tried to keep them as close as possible. I had some people who swore they would kill the snake if it was let go on their property so I did what I had to do. I just have seen more info on this subject in recent year and wonder about what damage I may have caused.

Black racers are fascinating snakes that seem to be way more intelligent than we think. I had many calls about racers following people and I have seen it at least once, plus I have heard about from many lawn guys. They will actually let the movement of people or mowers scare up food for them. I saw a racer following a lady and when a brown anole ran from her the racer jumped on it. I absolutely love racers for all their charms.

later Jason

Too bad goini aren't as plentiful, huh?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I agree that it can be a death sentence but obviously this isnt alwasy the case. Look at Florida, its full of non-native species like Iguana's, Tokay Gecko's, various frogs and even some python species. Now many of these animals have become established and are breeding there. Now for them to become established in the first place the parents had to adapt to a new enviroment enough to live, eat and breed...right ?

Keith
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Yeah you are right Keith. I had read somewhere that invasive species have it a all or nothing kind of deal. Either the habitat is right and they all seem to live (60% ) or it is wrong an they all die.

Bill Haas for instance has a outdoor snake pit and he has EDB's, Cotton Mouths, Cane breaks, and Copperheads in it. The cane breaks and copper heads do very poorly. I had the chance to go to his place and we walked around the pit and a copper head was the only snake spotted. It was half dead. I bet there are quite a few snakes from around the world that would do just fine in the pit though. I know the copper heads are not native and I was more making the point of invasive species making it or not.

With natives it is a little different apparently. The work that has been done suggest that natives that are moved either die or kill a snake in their new habitat. In this particular case I really think this animal will be fine but as a practice it is bad and illegal in most places for good reasons. I also think that racers have a better chance in disturbed habitat than in the wilds. I think they have a higher population density in disturbed habits. Just my opinion from what I have seen.

later Jason

I would think that you are wrong, reptiles have been on this planet FAR longer than humans and can adapt to just about anything, ESPECIALLY a short distance with the same habitat and surroundings. What statistics??? Seems like you should give us a link before you spout off inane comments, but thats just me!

.

On my very first post, I stated, my field partner is a captain at our local fire district. They have guidelines for reptile removal. I will post them when he gets back, hes over in your neck of the woods, GA. at the moment. I would imagine and I would hope, he also has lots of literature cited.

If you would simply ask more. I have attended several symposiums and talks with him on this subject. Its not a life or death deal for me. But it may be for the snakes you relocate.

As I mentioned before, it doesn't matter to me what you think, Also as I mentioned to BobS, you fellas seem to have the same mindset as the folks killing the snakes(I am sure many of those are fine humans as well) You refuse to listen/entertain/consider, anything that differs from your mindset. However naive it may be and sirs, its very naive. Cheers

FR, We are listening to a different mindset and trying not to be naive. Give us some credit. LOL. I think I'm kind of getting what you are trying to say. We like you..Ok ..it's a weird kind of like, but we do. It's nice to be challenged in our thinking and we all come out more aware.

I recently went for my recert with C.P.R. and the like. Some of the guys voiced some nervousness over remembering and doing everything right under chaotic circumstances. The instructor calmly looked at us and said. "He's dead. You can't hurt him, he's already gone. Anything we can do is a good thing. Just doing something as best you can is all you can do"
Hopefully because of this , if given a similar incident we have maybe learned to move the animal as short a distance as possible. And of course keep our heads down because of nutty neighbors that don't know what they are doing with firearms.
Whether it helps or not most of us are probably still going to move the turtle off the highway to the side he was going to let him live one more day instead of implementing some sort of Star Trek prime directive not to interfere LOL

? Anything happening with them?

you have mistaken me for someone else, please pay attention.

Who only feeds snakes in his hands, althought I saw some female hands in there!

The Yousesessss is the ones who will not consider there are consequences to moving snakes. You know, the bunch of you.

Also consider, If I only posted pics of snakes feeding in my hands, I would be lumped with you, and most would not know the difference. You see, both of us rarely trim our fingernails. I know, whats the use. hahahahahahahahahahaha

The truth is, as I said above, I actually don't care what you do, but I do care that you promote your view inspite of contrary information. Small point, but a point just the same.

By the way, I like seeing snakes feed. It must be some quirk us old timers share. Cheers

a feeding assitant but she got peed-on by a live pink and quit on me.

Frank, I would love to look up some of the data you are refering to. I just did a little searching but couldn't find much directly related to snakes. Could you give us the names of a few papers about the effects of relocation on snakes? I would be most interested in stuff that does not have to do with rattlers because I feel like their denning habits make them especially poor candidates for relocation survival. Comparing rattle snakes to racers isn't really talking about the same thing anyway.

This is not quite the same thing but I thought I'll put it out there. I used to find box turtles and keep them as "pets" for a little while then release them. Sometimes in the exact same spot sometimes not. Over the past ten years I have refound the vast majority again. Clearly box turtles in new jersey and racers wherever are totally different, but my experiece has shown me that reptiles are adaptable to an extent.

To the people who keep siting introduced species issues as successful relocation...

No one, not even Frank is saying the any and all movement of an animal is an imediate death sentence. Clearly, even if the vast majority of disturbed/ relocated animals don't make it, a few do. People could have released tokay geckos 100 times in florida before the population took off from a few lucky individuals who found a niche. We will never know, but pointing out that non-native species exist doesnt prove or disprove the relocated animal arguement. We are talking about percentages of survival not looking at one time occurances.

great discussion...

starting with "sorry but" and maybe it would be a good idea for you to look up the definition of relocate too.

So does this mean that next time you find a snake like this you're going to tell your wife, "But honey, we have to keep him or he'll die?"

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.