Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just before ovulation she was a mad eating cow. I open the tub there she was, she wanted more food. And now I have learned a very important lesson. Do not feed your girls to much. I know fat girls lay slugs, but this is ridiculous. 7 slugs and 1 good eggs. I did not expect to find this when I got home. I was gone the whole weekend, but her lay date should have been this saturday at 28 days from shed. I came home tonight (sunday). The good egg I put in my incubator, but it was a little dimpled from low humidity in the tub. I mix the vermiculite and perilte, 50 50. I measured the medium, 50% medium 50% water, but the humidity level was 44%. Anyone have any suggestions. This really sucks for my first clutch. I know I am knew to this, but I expected better results then this. I could shoot my self in the foot right now, anyone want to do it for me?

I mean the vermiculite and perlite was mixed, 2/3 vermiculite and 1/3 perilte.

Hang in there! Happens to the best of us. I just got my
first clutch of '06.....4 slugs! Ugh.

Personally, I don't think your bad luck had anything to do
with her eating too much.

-Chris

Thanks Chris, Hopfully I will have better luck with the next two clutches of eggs.

>>.... Do not feed your girls to much. I know fat girls lay slugs, but this is ridiculous. 7 slugs and 1 good eggs....
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Sorry. I know that's a drag to find.

But I've never equated good fat stores with infertile eggs. Where have you heard such a thing? Has this happened to you frequently? Did the male you use produce good fertile clutches with other females? What length and weight was this female that you consider her fat?

Thanks for any further information.

-Joan

yeah dude, sorry to see that. nothing to do with feeding, it happens. the ball python gods, as they say. best of luck with the rest. kd

her neck was a little fat, seemed heavier then the other girls. She was 2500 grams, at 4ft. Not really really fat, but I have heard read this on markus jayne website. One other reason should I look to for having so many slugs. Not puting my male with her enough times?

Kyle

>>her neck was a little fat, seemed heavier then the other girls. She was 2500 grams, at 4ft. Not really really fat, but I have heard read this on markus jayne website. One other reason should I look to for having so many slugs. Not puting my male with her enough times?

>>Kyle

Snakes don't store fat in their necks, so I couldn't say what's up with that. Anyway, 2500 g @ 4 ft sounds fine.

I look at cycling (was the male or female housed under really different conditions prior to the breeding season – say, the male kept too warm while the female was allowed to cool).

I look at male fertility (it helps to have a microscope to check sperm motility).

I look at female fat stores.

Sometimes you have to experiment over the course of a couple of years pairing up the male and female with different mates and observing the outcome to figure out where the “blame” lies.

Many years ago, just out of curiosity, I would allow the male and female access to each other for a very limited time period – like during the first week or two in February – just to see what would result. I don’t recall any problem with reduced fertility even with this more limited chance to copulate.

I just realized when you say "my first cluth" you might not have meant "my first clutch of the year." If it is your very first clutch, then forget most of my earlier questions.

No, its my very first clutch ever and for this season. My male was breeding every female with no problem, so I am really surprised with this outcome. I was have great luck with everything, but just not with the most important part. The Eggs. And without this part, might as well not even breed.

I know it's discouraging, but don't give up.

Anyway, your experience shows why you don't want to put all your eggs OR sperm in one basket, so to speak. If I had to make an educated guess, I'd place the blame on the male. But who knows.

Be sure to post the results when your other females deposit their eggs.

-Joan

Kyle, look at it this way, you still have one egg and who knows what might come out of it. At the very least it's a practise run for next season.

Quig

They were in the same racks, cooled at the same time. I know snakes don't store fat in there neck, she just looked a little fatter. The only thing that was wierd, she took along time before she showed signs of going into shed. Then she was in shed for a month. When is a good time to candle the egg, I mean when do viens start to really form?

Just go in a dark room and shine a cool, bright light (like from a flashlight) through the egg from different angles. Hold the flashlight right up against the egg. If the egg is fertile, you should see a sort of pinkish cast throughout and a network of red vessels already in place.

If I have the energy and if I separate the eggs in a clutch, I like to number, weigh and candle them and make notes on any anomalies so I can compare hatching success or failure later.

The egg is yellow orange and pinkish looking when candled. And there isn't a network of viens, it looks like one vien and another one kind of forming. What do you make of that.

I have seen enough pictures of candled fertile eggs and this doesn't look like one of them. Seems to be to yellow/orange to be fertile, despite the one vien. This sucks, 2 years of alot of hard work for this. Im not giving up, just unhappy with my results.

>>The egg is yellow orange and pinkish looking when candled. And there isn't a network of viens, it looks like one vien and another one kind of forming. What do you make of that.
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Well, it doesn't sound great.

“Network” might be misleading, but you should see at LEAST a couple of strong-looking vessels. When the color of the interior looks yellowish and/or there are just some odd red streaks, then the egg is almost certainly not viable.

Regardless, I set up anything for incubation that I am not 100 per cent sure of. What’s the harm? You should know in a couple of weeks, as the egg will usually start to mold if it is no good.

I didn't think It sounded good.

It has been known for years that fat female pythons often drop slugs or no eggs at all. It has been documented in bloods, olives, Angolans and womas to name a few. Obesity is a also a common determining factor when boas and colubrid snakes slug out. Obese females simply don't reproduce as well as healthy, well muscled girls. While it is normal for ball pythons to be heavy, I would not be surprised to hear of an overweight female dropping slugs. Actually, I bet it is more common than we realize. People probably don't attribute such reproductive failures to obesity because we assume that since balls are heavy bodied snakes, the fatter they are, the better production will be. That is true up to a point, but beyond that point, we see diminished returns on that caloric investment. Better luck with her next year.

Will

I've also been hearing about this for years but I've NEVER seen any compelling evidence to back it up. It always seemed to me to be just too handy of an answer, kind of a catch all reason .

Infertile eggs are caused because a viable sperm never made it to the egg to fertalize it. Do you have any evidence to prove that being overweight interferes with the ability of a sperm to make it to the egg? I'd love to see any studies if you have any handy.

Mark

>>It has been known for years that fat female pythons often drop slugs or no eggs at all. It has been documented in bloods, olives, Angolans and womas to name a few. Obesity is a also a common determining factor when boas and colubrid snakes slug out. Obese females simply don't reproduce as well as healthy, well muscled girls. While it is normal for ball pythons to be heavy, I would not be surprised to hear of an overweight female dropping slugs. Actually, I bet it is more common than we realize. People probably don't attribute such reproductive failures to obesity because we assume that since balls are heavy bodied snakes, the fatter they are, the better production will be. That is true up to a point, but beyond that point, we see diminished returns on that caloric investment. Better luck with her next year.
>>
>>Will

I have many large female breeders that are around the same weight or even heavier then mentioned here, never once have i had them slug out. My big girls that most would probally call a little over weight normally on avaerage throw me 9 eggs, never once has there been a slug from them. I have had slugs from smaller females, or from a females first clutch ever not of the season (obviouslly).
Kim

Hi Kim,

Its not so much weight, but body proportion. I also have several females that are heavier than the ball in question, but they are in proportion for their length. The snakes that I am refering to are the grossly obese animals that show skin between the scales throughout the body length and appear to be pin headed. In no way was I implying that heavy, solid females are bad breeders, quite to the contrary, they tend to be the best breeders, but that their is a greater chance of slugs/infertile eggs when the female is grossly overweight. Thanks.

Will

Will
In my first statment what i ment was that the ball in question dosent sound overweight by any means and that all of my balls that are in that weight catergory have been very good breeders. I understand weight and body proportion i have been working with balls for about 6 years now. I agree with you that "grossly" overweight girls could lay slugs, it makes sense in any lifeform obesity puts strain on the rest of the body.
Kim

Hi Mark,

Yes, I know the process that usually gives us those darn slugs, but I also believe that something malfunctions at a critical stage in an obese female and the eggs is killed somewhere between the point that it is fertilized and the point that it is deposited. Unfortunately, I don't have any research to back up this notion, only many years of seeing grossly overweight snakes drop slugs, only to have more proportioned girls bred by the same male throw 100% fertile clutches. It took me a looong time to make the connection and only did so after discussing the issue with Dave Barker regarding my olive pythons in the late 90s. To be honest, since I have been paying closer attention to the condition of my girls, my incidence of receiving slugs has dropped dramatically, almost to zero (knock on wood).

Also, I don't mean girls that are just a little chunky, I'm refering to grossly obese snakes, you know the ones that have fat rolls, and exposed skin between the scales. Good discussion.

Will

Will, thanks for taking the time to answer, I appreciate your response. Like I said earlier I've been hearing about overweight as being a factor in slugs for years but in my own experience it just doesn't stand up. I did get a large percentage of slugs last year, but I can't say that any of my girls were overweight. In fact if anything the opposite would be true, I've always liked to keep my snakes a bit on the lean side. All of these were first time clutches for these females (at least while in my care) and two of them hadn't been in my possession for very long. While, I've only been breeding ball pythons for four years, I've been breeding colubrids for over 15 years and I've had a few slugs from them too. In those cases, I also don't beleive that being overweight was a factor even though that was the main explanation that people brought up when I mentioned it. There are probably many factors that contribute to slugging out, being overweight might be one of them but I think other factors could be equally or even more likely to be the cause. Being underweight, being improperly conditioned, being sick, being too young, just not being put with a male at the right time, all could also be factors. I'm not saying that being overweight couldn't be a reason, I just think that it's gotten to be too easy to use that as an explanation and maybe we should be digging deeper for more solid information.

Mark

>>Hi Mark,
>>
>>Yes, I know the process that usually gives us those darn slugs, but I also believe that something malfunctions at a critical stage in an obese female and the eggs is killed somewhere between the point that it is fertilized and the point that it is deposited. Unfortunately, I don't have any research to back up this notion, only many years of seeing grossly overweight snakes drop slugs, only to have more proportioned girls bred by the same male throw 100% fertile clutches. It took me a looong time to make the connection and only did so after discussing the issue with Dave Barker regarding my olive pythons in the late 90s. To be honest, since I have been paying closer attention to the condition of my girls, my incidence of receiving slugs has dropped dramatically, almost to zero (knock on wood).
>>
>>Also, I don't mean girls that are just a little chunky, I'm refering to grossly obese snakes, you know the ones that have fat rolls, and exposed skin between the scales. Good discussion.
>>
>>Will

This is an interesting topic, to be sure. But a couple or three points. And I’d like to confine this to ball pythons, not other boid snakes (or humans), if possible.

Please note - I personally believe there are many deleterious health effects which obesity bestows on different organisms. And I’ve seen plenty of pictures of juvenile ball pythons and adults of other species that I consider pretty gross in the adipose tissue department. I think if people would cut open their dead snakes and look at the usually generous fat stores on an animal that most would label “thin,” they might re-think how much they feed their snakes.

--However, in relation to the post which kicked this thread off – would you consider a 4 foot, 2500 gram female ball python obese? I certainly don’t.

--In relation to adult ball pythons in general, have you ever seen an animal four feet or larger that you would label obese? Could you (or anyone here) post a photo of such an animal?

--Can you cite any studies, even small hobbyist ones published in non-refereed publications, to support your assertion that “obese” ball pythons produce large quantities of infertile eggs?

Forums are great places to share information; that’s one of their wonderful features. But, as you know, there is precious little effort made to back up assertions with documentation (of any sort!). And strange assertions often seem to take on a life of their own. (One of my favorite weird ones is the “mice are more nutritious than rats” nonsense that comes up from time to time). It’s just the nature of the medium. And I note with sadness that few of the people with years of wide-ranging experience seem to post here anymore.

-Joan

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>>It has been known for years that fat female pythons often drop slugs or no eggs at all. It has been documented in bloods, olives, Angolans and womas to name a few. Obesity is a also a common determining factor when boas and colubrid snakes slug out. Obese females simply don't reproduce as well as healthy, well muscled girls. While it is normal for ball pythons to be heavy, I would not be surprised to hear of an overweight female dropping slugs. Actually, I bet it is more common than we realize. People probably don't attribute such reproductive failures to obesity because we assume that since balls are heavy bodied snakes, the fatter they are, the better production will be. That is true up to a point, but beyond that point, we see diminished returns on that caloric investment. Better luck with her next year.
>>
>>Will

Hi Joan,

In answer to your questions, no, I certainly don't consider a four foot, 2500 gram female ball to be obese, so while I can certainly entertain obesity as a possibility in this reproductive failure, I obviously wouldn't put any money on the weight factor being the cause, especially without seeing the animal. Measurements are nice, but even if the length is a little off (which it often is when describing snakes), the actual proportions of the snake in question can change radically. So without seeing the animal I wouldn't dare try to pinpoint the cause of the slugs. I just wanted to let those who stated that they had never heard of such a thing, know that this phenomenon does exist in snake breeding. Actually I have seen a few female balls over time that I would consider to be obese, not many, but a few. I agree that it is the juvi balls that tend to get over fed more often than adult females. Heck, it seems these days that any adult female that attains breeding weight is quickly bred before she can ever get to the point where she is too fat.

Also, as stated in another part of this thread I don't have any formal research to back up this assertion, just many years of breeding colubrids and pythons and observations based on my successes and failures, which to me are far more valuable. As well as the observations of other keepers with far more experience than myself. Also, I would rule out the males being at fault when they would sire other clutches with 100% fertility but failed with the overweight females. Simply put, with fat females, I failed more than I succeeded. When I started paying more attention to the female's proportions, my egg infertility/failure dropped to almost zero. Where it remains today. Thanks.

Will

I would agree that obesity would likey result in health issues. To say it is a well-known phenomenon is pushing it a bit. I have been dealing with reptiles for well over 25 years - yes I'm that old - and have not heard this often - maybe twice. Further, I have seen very few obese reptiles. I have not seen any (Ball Pythons) that would gorge themselves to the point where they are always or the majority of time so plump, the scales separate (stretch). Not to say it does not happen. It would be nice to see studies like this and more, but reptiles don't do very well when it comes to funding grants
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Sorry to see that. stuff happens, here is a pic of my first clutch last year.

Even the two "good" eggs went bad after a week so be on the lookout for that. Bad eggs come from a lack of sperm not too much food. She was probably eating because she had extra room in her belly due to the small infertile eggs. Eating doesn't cause infertile eggs.

Mark

>>Just before ovulation she was a mad eating cow. I open the tub there she was, she wanted more food. And now I have learned a very important lesson. Do not feed your girls to much. I know fat girls lay slugs, but this is ridiculous. 7 slugs and 1 good eggs. I did not expect to find this when I got home. I was gone the whole weekend, but her lay date should have been this saturday at 28 days from shed. I came home tonight (sunday). The good egg I put in my incubator, but it was a little dimpled from low humidity in the tub. I mix the vermiculite and perilte, 50 50. I measured the medium, 50% medium 50% water, but the humidity level was 44%. Anyone have any suggestions. This really sucks for my first clutch. I know I am knew to this, but I expected better results then this. I could shoot my self in the foot right now, anyone want to do it for me?
>>

that sucks, hopefully you have better luck this season. I don't expect the other egg to last.

Actually last year sucked all around. I only had 3 clutches of eggs last year for a total of 17 eggs of which only 4 hatched. Anything I do this year has GOT to be better.

Mark

>>that sucks, hopefully you have better luck this season. I don't expect the other egg to last.

Now I don't feel so bad, Thanks Mark. Did you get alot of slugs or did they just go bad?

I forgot to add that I was also trying to breed 8 females and only got three clutches out of those. Most of them looked like slugs when they were laid, the others went bad fairly quickly and apperently weren't fertile to begin with. I blame it on doing a lot of remodeling on the house. Too many things going on that I couldn't pay proper attention to my breeding. Either that or just bad luck. Like I said, stuff happens.

Mark

>>Now I don't feel so bad, Thanks Mark. Did you get alot of slugs or did they just go bad?

There is no way to really know why she slugged out. I keep my snakes on the chunky side, and have never had a "fat" girl lay slugs. My girls that laid slugs have always been thinner or smaller girls. I certainly would not deny food to a girl who is breeding and wants to eat. What is the female's history?

Chin up!

Christy

There are a ton of things that can go wrong during breeding season, like some said it could be the male, she may have not been able to get cool or warm enough, she may not have been breed at the right time or enough times, if it is her first litter maybe that played into it also. Its impossible to tell unfortunatley.Every female is different. I wish you best of luck with your other clutches, and maybe next year she'll give you 7 good eggs..
Good luck.
Kim

I have had her for two years, always very aggressive with food, always healthy. She did drop 300 grams a week before eggs. I thought that was odd, maybe that had something to do with it.

Ouch, sorry that your first clutch was such a bad one. Hope you have better luck next time.

As for humidity, I keep mine up by soaking the substrate and then putting plastic crate over top of it so that the eggs don't actually sit on the wet substrate but the moisture stays right.

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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

Where do you get those crates?

Like home depot or Lowes, they're light diffusers for Florescent light fixtures.

>>Where do you get those crates?

fat girls lay crap eggs...in other species usually more than in balls.........I have girls that are huge and they lay 12 good eggs usually........

I would say it may be the male's fault......

did you use a small 400 gram male?.......a lazy male?.........a male that wasn't given a thermal gradiant at all?.......ever.?..........too few actual copulations?.........

yes one time breeding can give you all good eggs but maybe some females don't store sperm like we all think they should........maybe you bred and bred then she didn't hold enough sperm and you missed it and didn't breed her at a late enough date.....

these are all things that can happen.......

bred well....breed alot/often.............feed all you want........

,.............
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........
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you think????

that I can come to is that she was not bred with male enough times. I was breeding my male with 6 or 7 girls, 3 days on, 3 days off. He never went off feeding and almost bred every time to what ever girl I put him with. I will know more when I get my next clutch of eggs in 2 weeks. I will keep everyone posted.

Kyle