Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The post of Julius Squeezer kinda prompted this question...When you guys take out your big retics and burms, do you ever have incidents where a possible animal of prey (dog, cat, bird, squirrel,...) comes along and sets the snake off? It's had to have happened at least once, right? You know, one minute you're posing for the camera, the next your 'tic ripping the hell out of some unsuspecting animal...I've had couple of good size (eight foot) boas out before, nothing happened, but I'm assuming something could have...)

Just a question. Any good stories?

but public forums may no longer be the place to relate a story of this nature, IF anyone out there has any.
The AR (animal rights= PETA, HSUS, API etc..) are always on the alert for quotes and descriptions of instances such as being asked here. To portray large constrictors as dangerous, uncontrollable, and beyond the capacity of care a private keeper posesses. A threat not only to the keeper but the general public, including PC pets, and natural wildlife.
*I fully believe this Post was asked with good intention and find it sad that we now live in a society where a public recount of a learning event can be used against us.
-N-

>>The post of Julius Squeezer kinda prompted this question...When you guys take out your big retics and burms, do you ever have incidents where a possible animal of prey (dog, cat, bird, squirrel,...) comes along and sets the snake off? It's had to have happened at least once, right? You know, one minute you're posing for the camera, the next your 'tic ripping the hell out of some unsuspecting animal...I've had couple of good size (eight foot) boas out before, nothing happened, but I'm assuming something could have...)
>>
>>Just a question. Any good stories?

A find this very good point and unfotunately due to the majority of mainstream public opinon I would suggest we not discuss this topic. Many animal rights groups would love the oppurtunity to use a discussion like this to ruin the reputaion of such majestic creatures. Society is against us and we must use common sense when discussing sensitive topic such as this. I belive the previous message was posted with only the finest of intentions but we need to be careful where these issues are brought to light. It would be a shame to lose the oppurtunity to work with these wonderful creatures.

Just to make this clear, please don't think anything i'm saying is an attack on any of you.

I feel that this is something that is really wrong w/our society. What has happened to us? Why are we all afraid of what PETA thinks? This group is responsible for more half-assed, insane ideas than anything i have ever seen. The vast majority of the world thinks of them as a bunch of crazy hippies w/nothing better to do than complain about every little thing. I'm all for the ethical treatment of animals, but these people are just plain stupid. For every good thing they do, they do 10 crazy as hell things. I'm just so sick of "walking on eggshells" as not to offend or stir up any problems. They have no right to tell us what to do or anything like that. I understand that you guys don't want to give them anymore ammo, but this is exactly why our society is going to crap, everything is too politically correct and everyone is afraid they are going to offend someone. This is just my 2 cents....it's just really sad that we can't even speak our own minds w/out looking over our shoulders....

I agree, and with this topic brought up it actually shows the opposition (and any other intrested parties) that we as "responsible" keepers bring up hypothetical situations to think about reactions, and to find out how different keepers handle different things. This shows true responsibility to theorize on the "what if" factors. My 2 cents.
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2.1 RTB (Zander, Ridick, Liliana)
1.1 Burms (Vladamir, Natalia)
0.1 Lavender Albino Retic (Katerina)
1.1 100% Het Tigers (Nicholi & Charlamaine)
2.3 Silver fox rabbits
many, many, many, many rats
"New strategy R-2, Let the Wookie Win!!!"

I agree 100%. How do people think astronauts train? They look at ALL possible scenarios and use simulators to "pretend" that they are in a dangerous situation w/out actually having the possibility of injury. In order to properly prepare for something, you need to know every possible scenario and how to prepare and deal w/it in case of an occurence. This is what we do, we come to these public forums to talk about our experiences, further educating others with what we've seen and heard to promote better care of the creatures we are so fascinated with. Without these forums, i would venture to say a lot of the herps would suffer for lack of knowledge by their keepers. Some of the best lessons we'll ever learn are usually the bad ones....so maybe we can learn from others and keep it from happening again. sorry for the rant....lol

By saying..." it actually shows the opposition (and any other intrested parties) that we as "responsible" keepers bring up hypothetical situations to think about reactions..." , the statement assumes that they want the best for animals and society and that they are thinking logically. That may be true for SOME activists, but many only want to eradicate ALL pet keeping (or any use of animals) for ANY reason, and don't care whether we are responisble or not. They will take pieces of info out of context and totally twist the meaning to support their agenda.

Have you read the book about pet reptiles put out for the HSUS? It pretends to be a book about pet keeping, but in reality takes every opportunity possible to make the point that no reptile SHOULD be kept as a pet (let alone giant snakes!). The book twists facts to make it sound as though most pets are the few survivors of greedy importers, and that any breeder must be the same as a puppy mill.

Don't make the mistake of thinking of them as logical people interested in animal welfare. They have a very narrow agenda, and the "end justifies the means" to many of them, whatever it takes.

PETA isn't the only enemy. Here is my take on the subject (from my website) if you care to read it:

The Hidden Enemy

Try the old cut and paste:

http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn%20Utopia%20on%20the%20Web/-%20LURKING%20ENEMY%20Cornutopia%20corn%20snakes%20cornsnakes.htm

You make a great point. I agree to an extent, but at the same time, just remember that just b/c they think they are all powerful and can control things so easily doesn't mean they really can. The only reason they have any power or pull whatsoever is b/c they have grossly misinformed the public and the key people who control legislation and such things. The way of stopping them is to educate the truth to these people, which i think is slowly happening. Reptiles are the fastest growing pet population right now. People are growing less & less fearful of these creatures and becoming curious. In turn, if we continue giving responsible care and sharing our experiences/knowledge and doing our part not to further the sterotype that the PETA and other organizations have given us herp keepers, things will change. Just my opinion....

be ever vigilant as new legislation is proposed, and be ready to fight for our rights. "The squeaky wheel gets oiled", and the humaniacs can be VERY squeaky! And they know the right way to do it, and are very single minded in the pursuit of their agenda. And so must we.

For example, this Friday there will be a panel disucussion of invasive animals at the herp conference in Gainesville, Florida. Their main concern is the Burmese Pythons in the Everglades and the Nile Monitors in Cape Coral, but the State is concerned with others too. Any Florida residents who are concerned about these subjects and want to have some input should attend. Otherwise, we will be subject to laws passed without any representation from us at all.

kathy you speak nothing but the truth, we as reptile keepers must unite if we wish to keep the priveledge of owning any of these animals especially the large constrictors we love. I was about to purchase my first retic in a long (a lav albnio) time at the tampa show and was informed this new law will pass and require at the very least a $300 permit per year to possess these large snakes. This high of a permit will virtually take the casual hobbyist out of the equation when owning large snakes is concerned. Everyone says they can only take away the rights we let them. This is absolutely true, but we must realize that on voting day, they all show up and vote, we don't. When the local legislation in columbia, south carolina proposed a ban on large snakes, I attended one of the open meetings and was one of only 5 people there opposing the ban. I wish I was able to make it to gainesville friday to speak my peace but am unable to, but I have sent a letter to my congressman and senator stating my wishes and reasons that this legislation will not help the problem in the everglades or cape coral (have they even found any actual nile's there in the last 5 years or just "tracks" and feces)?

In closing we must make our voices heard if we want the right to own these animals anymore.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

for the Gainesville meeting (ugh, mornings - it's a 4 1/2 hour drive!). Will let you know what happened next week after I return (there is a whole weekend of reptile talks).

Those peeps are nuts, but we still can't be afraid of them either. We have to be smarter and willing to fight for our rights as owners and keepers. I say that with this kind of a discussion we are showing the "normal - logical" people that we are responsible enough to discuss different issues and scenarios to learn from each other. If you look in the Burm forum, there are several keepers there that did discuss this issue for both burms and retics and it showed that "experience" suggests that the snakes did not care about "other prey items" in those situations. Hence, the herpers are a more educated group now with these stories to back up the our stance that these animals are manageable and wonderful pets. Not trying to start a fight by any means just showing a differenct perspective as to this educated discussion. I mean, really, look at one of the spokes people for PETA (Pamela Anderson), I can't take them seriously at all now.
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2.1 RTB (Zander, Ridick, Liliana)
1.1 Burms (Vladamir, Natalia)
0.1 Lavender Albino Retic (Katerina)
1.1 100% Het Tigers (Nicholi & Charlamaine)
2.3 Silver fox rabbits
many, many, many, many rats
"New strategy R-2, Let the Wookie Win!!!"

I agree with everthing that has been said in this post but at this point in the game peta has a higher profile than us herpers. They manipulate celebrities into promoting their twisted messages. I belive that there will be a time when we can freely discuss all aspects good and bad of owning these wonderful reptiles but knowing firsthand how easily one statement taken out of context can be twisted into something that groups such as peta can use as ammo I would personally rather not even give them the oppurtunity. With the status of their group now even though they are crazy they could do some serious damage if they were to turn their sights specifically onto the reptile community. I'm not saying to fear their power because I don't, but I also wouldn't attack a grizzly bear unarmed. There is a time and a place for everything and taking political action is among the best possible avenues. Go to meeting as voice opposition. It is the only way to be heard. Write congressmen and high ranking public officials. Most importantly vote. I think under the certian circumstances suppressing some information although we shouldn't have to is a good way to stop the bad press and pressure on the reptile communtiy. If you take away an animals food it can grow so lets not feed peta and other organizations anything that could be fired back apon us.

I am in FULL agreement with you and what you said. It sickens me too how things seem to have become where everyone is too afraid to say it like it is. I don't give a rats behind what the people at peta or any other anti-reptile organization think or have to say and I will continue to do what I want concerning reptiles no matter what they do or think they accomplish. And they are going to do whatever they will do whether we speak our minds or not. So I say speak your minds! I would send a message to peta here but I don't think ks has a fat middle finger emoticon. lol.

Personally, I feel that the only rights they can take from us is the ones we allow them to take.
Link

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Its not a matter of what the Animal Rights (AR) groups think. We all know what they think, and that is ultimately - No one (including academia- ie zoo,lab,research) should ever own, control, utilize, inflict, or depend upon ANY animal. Exotics including reptiles are merely stepping stones towards their long term agenda of no captive animals.

What I feel we should closely watch is what we give them to twist. They do not see accounts of mistakes as a learning source, only as written first person testimony to "this is why the private owners should not have these".

Unfortunately presenting to legislators and representatives is not at all like a court room. Fact is not key. Heresay accounts and newspaper articles are admissable as factual information and statistics!! In a court room these do not count.

This thread asked for accounts of instances, not hypotheticals. I do not find it offensive to ask this and agree it is informative, and the problems are already stirred up. What is precedent is not providing them (AR's) with first hand accounts for them to twist. We are fighting a dirty war, legislative process does not mandate true fact to support validation. If all data had to factual, then these laws would not be nearly as common.

I would love it if the AR groups would publicly discuss/post their mistakes/weak points, practices, and less than legal tactics for all to see. It would definately make fighting their agendas easier.

I agree learning from others is a major facet of developing a solid knowledge. Instances like these do need discussed for others to learn by, but we must take care in how we present it. Unfortunately I believe that fighting and guarding against agendas has now become a constant in our lives with reptiles, and as such we are now required to be evermore aware of ourselves. Maybe physical herp societys need to start again, where individuals can meet, hang out, tell the stories, and so on. Hot guys meet hot guys (sounds odd), constrictors to constictors and so on. Im sure some will say well that can be infiltrated, but its much harder to pose in person then from a keyboard.

AR groups did not stereotype us, they only arranged the information to better promote it. We were stereotyped by those irresponsible keepers and the individuals who did not care so much about the animal as much as for their own images. Be it lg constrictors to venomous, those forementioned were the ones who ultimately created the stereotype.

So that is my expansion on the subject. Hope its something to think about for all.
Notah

>>Just to make this clear, please don't think anything i'm saying is an attack on any of you.
>>
>>I feel that this is something that is really wrong w/our society. What has happened to us? Why are we all afraid of what PETA thinks? This group is responsible for more half-assed, insane ideas than anything i have ever seen. The vast majority of the world thinks of them as a bunch of crazy hippies w/nothing better to do than complain about every little thing. I'm all for the ethical treatment of animals, but these people are just plain stupid. For every good thing they do, they do 10 crazy as hell things. I'm just so sick of "walking on eggshells" as not to offend or stir up any problems. They have no right to tell us what to do or anything like that. I understand that you guys don't want to give them anymore ammo, but this is exactly why our society is going to crap, everything is too politically correct and everyone is afraid they are going to offend someone. This is just my 2 cents....it's just really sad that we can't even speak our own minds w/out looking over our shoulders....

I hope you do not think I am irresponsable by taking Julios Squeezer out. If you notice in the pic there is not a crowd of people walking on the sidewalks-it is a dead end street. The only other person within 100ft is behind the camera. I know people have a fear of snakes & I respect them by not taking them to town. When I do take him out, I do not "push" or try to scare people with them. I have done several education meetings @ schools & wildlife events. We live in an imperfect world that comes with it people that will sue over ANYTHING. I would not allow my snake to put the lives of any person or animal in jepardy. The police & animal control have both been to my house & know that I am responsible with all my animals-some have even came back with fellow officers just to show them what I have.
As far as PETA goes-there are just an animal version of the ACLU. They believe animals have more rights than humans. They are against us feeding live animals to our herps & would like to have reptiles out of the market. Ask any reptile store that sells rodents for food, they will tell you how animal right activist have tried to stop them. Have you ever wondered when it says on the the side of the bottle, "not tested on labartory animals" what was it tested on? humans?
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norcalsnakemaster@comcast.net

I wasn't trying to imply at all that I thought it was bad to take JS out. Take that bad boy out all you can! I was just thinking to myself, "Damn, that's a big friggin' retic! What would happen if a neighborhood cat or pigeon came too near it and set it off?" It was more about WHAT to do IF it happened than anything else.

Great looking snake, by the way

Marcus