Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The post of Julius Squeezer on the retic forum kinda prompted this question...When you guys take out your big retics and burms, do you ever have incidents where a possible animal of prey (dog, cat, bird, squirrel,...) comes along and sets the snake off? It's had to have happened at least once, right? You know, one minute you're posing for the camera, the next your 'tic ripping the hell out of some unsuspecting animal...I've had couple of good size (eight foot) boas out before, nothing happened, but I'm assuming something could have...)

Just a question. Any interesting stories?

It's a good question and I'm surprised, with all the negative views concerning the keeping of these beautiful giants, that it is not asked more often.

First of all let me say that I do not take any chances with having my dogs or cats around when we are doing outdoor photoshoots. I feel it is best to not take any chances and therefore no catastrophes will happen. But quite frankly, from a hypothetical standpoint, I don't think that most snakes would show any interest in taking them as prey animals. I have found over the years that snakes can be surprisingly picky and in my opinion most snakes would not be interested in eating a dog or a cat. Before I get attacked myself let me stress that I am saying "most". I am aware that there are exceptions to every general rule and I am aware that a certain small percentage of any given species could possibly view a dog or a cat as a prey animal. The only exception I can think of, species-wise, would be african rock pythons. They seem to be a lot less picky and readily accept different prey items when offered something new. But burmese, retics, indians and ceylonese can sometimes take months and in a few cases years to even accept rabbits or chickens willingly after having been raised to 6 or 8 feet on rats. I sometimes have to take troublesome lengths to get these holdouts to take rat scented rabbits.

Then there is the stress of being held. Many snakes will forget all about eating when being held and can only think about getting AWAY from us.

So in my opinion, the chances are slim that cuddles will suddenly attack fluffy when you have her out. But my advice is don't ever take the chance simply because it CAN happen. That's reason enough to take lengths to keep them far apart.
Our Website

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

A few years ago we received a call from a family near our wildlife center that had a pet burm for 8 years that they had to find a new home for (claiming that a new baby they had might get eaten....not sure why they felt that way). When I arrived to the house, I noticed 10 cats roaming all over the house and several small dogs. I asked where the burm was kept and she took me to the living room where the burm was in a large dog kennel (that's where it was kept unless it was roaming the house!). I found this odd but didn't want to lecture too much. So, she let the burm out of the kennel and it just slowly slithered out and roamed around. She told me that the snake has never attacked the cats or dogs and much to my shock, she was right. The cats and dogs would go right up to the snake's mouth/nose, lick the snake and move on. I kept wondering when it would happen but it never did. BUT, folks are rolling the dice when doing this sort of thing and its probably just a matter of time before something bad happens.

>>It's a good question and I'm surprised, with all the negative views concerning the keeping of these beautiful giants, that it is not asked more often.
>>
>>First of all let me say that I do not take any chances with having my dogs or cats around when we are doing outdoor photoshoots. I feel it is best to not take any chances and therefore no catastrophes will happen. But quite frankly, from a hypothetical standpoint, I don't think that most snakes would show any interest in taking them as prey animals. I have found over the years that snakes can be surprisingly picky and in my opinion most snakes would not be interested in eating a dog or a cat. Before I get attacked myself let me stress that I am saying "most". I am aware that there are exceptions to every general rule and I am aware that a certain small percentage of any given species could possibly view a dog or a cat as a prey animal. The only exception I can think of, species-wise, would be african rock pythons. They seem to be a lot less picky and readily accept different prey items when offered something new. But burmese, retics, indians and ceylonese can sometimes take months and in a few cases years to even accept rabbits or chickens willingly after having been raised to 6 or 8 feet on rats. I sometimes have to take troublesome lengths to get these holdouts to take rat scented rabbits.
>>
>>Then there is the stress of being held. Many snakes will forget all about eating when being held and can only think about getting AWAY from us.
>>
>>So in my opinion, the chances are slim that cuddles will suddenly attack fluffy when you have her out. But my advice is don't ever take the chance simply because it CAN happen. That's reason enough to take lengths to keep them far apart.
>>Our Website
>>
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>>David Beauchemin
>>High End Herps.Inc
>>http://HighEndHerps.com
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

If you do things responsibly, there should never be those sorts of interactions. BUT, just having the scent of a prey animal on you is cause for concern with certain large constrictors and you can betcha that there have been some near fatal incidents from negligent owners. We require any child at a school to wash their hands prior to (and after) they handle our large constrictors for the very fact that there will be at least a handful that could have the scent of their pet bunny, hamster, gerbil, etc on their hands. I have never personally encountered this. Stupid feeding errors is another story; I think its safe to say that all of us have at least one SFE story that we can share (thankfully, mine just resulted in teeth marks around the entire perimeter of my face; could have been a lot worse and something that I did in my very early years of herp keeping).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>The post of Julius Squeezer on the retic forum kinda prompted this question...When you guys take out your big retics and burms, do you ever have incidents where a possible animal of prey (dog, cat, bird, squirrel,...) comes along and sets the snake off? It's had to have happened at least once, right? You know, one minute you're posing for the camera, the next your 'tic ripping the hell out of some unsuspecting animal...I've had couple of good size (eight foot) boas out before, nothing happened, but I'm assuming something could have...)
>>
>>Just a question. Any interesting stories?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

"thankfully, mine just resulted in teeth marks around the entire perimeter of my face"

ouch! how did that happen?
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

There was a confiscation due to an animal abuse case that included a very large burm that was never handled. The entire house smelled like rats/bunnies and I think when I went to try to carefully/gently remove the snake from the crate it was kept in, it smelled food, saw me moving around and said "din din" and BAM, full frontal connection. Thankfully, she knew right away that I was not food, quickly let go and just got real pissed off. I never knew that my face could bleed so profusely. Of course, I was by myself so I didn't want to upset the animal any further....after a little more TLC, she settled down and allowed me to put her into the traveling container w/out any further problems. I had a pic at one time but it has disappeared; it was pretty gruesome.

>>"thankfully, mine just resulted in teeth marks around the entire perimeter of my face"
>>
>>ouch! how did that happen?
>>-----
>>Bryan, Atlanta GA
>>
>>1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
>>0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
>>0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
>>0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
>>1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
>>0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
>>0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
>>1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
>>0-1-0 Wife
>>2-0-0 Kids
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Years ago a pair of well known python breeders did a documentary where one breeder announced he had been bit in the face over a dozen times by pythons in excess of a 100lbs.
For one thing 100lb python are'nt the dime a dozen snake everyone thinks they are and for another he claimed their teeth were so small they would not penetrate your eyelid.
Not only did I feel this statement to be an outright lie I felt it was grossly irresponsible. To minimize the bite of a large constrictor and the potential damage I felt was criminal.
Years ago I had a friend who knew a girl who lost her eye to a big anaconda. She was spraying out her cage and had her back to the snake when she turned the snake struck and hit her in the face.
I'm sure your bite was extremely painful.
Danny Conner

The two stupid things I have done when taking large boids outside for "fresh air" are:
1. Phone rings inside. Dash in to answer, get distracted...you guessed it, OMG! dash outside and...where's the python? Fortunately, scrubjays in the backyard were only too happy to show me where she went.
2. Snake gets a notion to bolt for cover, or a fence, or thicket..you get the idea...then I'm forced to grab, snake reacts in fear and now in a heartbeat, Ive gone from Peaceable Kingdom to Code Red.
Resutantly, I am now VERY deliberate when I take any of my charges out...better for both of us.

Are
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1.0 Goini
0.1 Hypo. Floridana
0.1 Sumatran Blood Python

Sorry about that, accidentally pressed enter. Anyways, do these snakes really not like you guys as much as you're saying? I mean I always thought that snakes are able to pretty much "get used" to their owners touch, scent, etc. I have 3 kingsnakes and an '05 0.1 Sumatran Blood python (who is quickly becoming a docile sweetheart), so obviously I don't know much about the monster pythons (yet). Do they really just try to get away from you whenever you take them out? That's weird, my kings (especially one of them) literally plays on me, going up my shirt crawling on my head, etc. and my blood python just sits on me NOT in the defense position. I DO take them outside as well. While it's true that their tongues are moving haywire, they don't ever try to really get away from me.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just concerned. Some of the comments make me feel like keeping snakes is just for visual entertainment and not for embarking on a "pet/owner" relationship (as much of a relationship a snake can have anyway lol).
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1.0 Goini
0.1 Hypo. Floridana
0.1 Sumatran Blood Python

I think it all depends on the snake and how often the owner has the snake out. I have a 7 ft green burm, he is still just a baby compared to what he will become, but whenever I have him out he does not try and get away. he squirms over my body and is curious about his surroundings, but its not like he is desperate to get away or anything.

Do you have any pics?

Can you post any?

I've got a little green, & I'd love to see a larger one. I don't see many pics of greens around here...

Mine is very active, but when I watch Tv on the couch he just
sits on my stomach or curls up in my shirt sleeve...

I think it depends both on the snake, & on how much time is spent
handling them...

My boas just sit on the little table next to the couch as well.
They're very mellow...

Enjoy your pets. They are however, wild animals. From time to time they may remind you of this fact. On those occasions, dealing with them in a compentent manner that is both safe and humane is a responsibility that the owner must accept. That obligation has more serious implications with a giant boid than with a cornsnake, that's all.

Allow me to try to clarify for you what happened with that other posters burmese and what can happen with any of our snakes when they are taken outside and placed on the ground.

It isn't the the snakes suddenly decide to be "bad". It isn't that they were/are a wild animal waiting for their opportunity to escape and attack their owners. This has happened to me and it is up to us as responsible herpers to fully understand what it is and why it happens.

When a snake is taken outside and placed on the grass it can easily go into a fully instinctual mode. To the snake it is not on a well-groomed lawn in a middle class suburb. To the snake with it's micoscopic, instinct-oriented brain it is suddenly in the wild. And with the wild comes possible predation. So it suddenly does NOT want to be out in the open and exposed. So they desperately will seek out a place to hide themselves. And if anything approaches them during this time they instictually assume it to be a possible predator. So when you suddenly run up and grab your snake it quite literally thinks it's being attacked by something that wants to eat it and it will defend itself with all its got.

I hope this helps to clear up what goes on with a snake that is taken outside for a stroll. Not to say that this will always happen. It won't. But it can happen at any time and no species is exempt.
Our Website

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

David, I like that answer and I agree.

Quig

Thanks David. That is exactly the phenomenom I was attempting to describe. 'Course it doesn't always happen, and by close attention, it can be mitigated. But when the snakey brain gets in the fear mode, things can get hectic in a hurry...said not to scare anyone nor to discourage taking their charges outside on a nice day...just a observation.

I can't for the snake part but I know that Iguanas are more than 'moody' at times. There was a show last week (Four Kings... I think the name is), anyway one of the guys got suckered into holding an iguana, which was immediately abandonned by the owner. They did some research and found that pretty much every action on their part would be met with an "it will attack" response. Don't make direct eye contact... or it will attack. As sad and amusing as it may be, like it was said they are all wild animals. Our Ig went through a stage recently where he bit my wife every chance he got (breeding season) - I have to admit I did get amused at it from time to time, but now he wants to be petted by her all the time and has recently begun bitting me - which is less amusing to me but my wife is getting a good laugh from it. It all goes back to the enternal question - Are they ever REALLY tame? (I am refering to the reptiles... not the wife... though that fits too).
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

I'm sure there will be people to disagree with this but IMO snakes are just to primitive to recognize anyone. I have had over 10 years and I don't think they knew me from anyone else. Simply how they were treated/ handled dictated how they responded. To that end my worse bite was from a 15 foot retic that I had bred the parents raised it from a baby and in 4 years it had never tried to bite. But when it was loose in my van and I was havind a hard time catching it I grabbed it firmly about 2 feet behind the head. She swung around and latched on to my arm.
If she was capable of recognition she certainly recognized me. I had never hurt her or mistreated her BUT snakes do not like to be restained and that is what I did so she bit me.
All this does not mean that no reptiles recognize their owner.Tortoises may, monitors may and certainly crocodilians do. But clearly in the reptile world crocodilians are the man with one eye.
Danny Conner

Well okay then. Thanks for all the replies everyone. I guess we just have to take safety precautions in an attempt to avoid being attacked by our snakes. I've had all of my snakes out several times and to me it seems like they're scared of the "outside world". They don't know what to think and most of the time when I set them in the grass they just sit there until I pick them back up. I realize snakes aren't capable of knowing their names or performing tricks or anything, but I at least thought snakes were able to recognize their handler, specifically by the scent. Before I handle my snakes, I use the SAME hand sanitizer with the same scent to try to get them used to my smell. Or I use soap, but regardless, I've had friends hold my 2 yr. old Hypomelanistic Florida Kingsnake (I know, not a boid but they ALL have the same instinctual mentality "right?"and almost everytime she wants nothing to do with them and crawl out of their hands, onto mine and then she seems fine. Is there any explanation behind this or is it just purely a coincidence?
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1.0 Goini
0.1 Hypo. Floridana
0.1 Sumatran Blood Python

I agree and disagree w/one of the previous poster's basically saying that snakes don't recognize their owners. Maybe something was different for his, but i've seen it first hand many times. The key really is to remember these are instinctual animals and to play upon this nature. They are never going to love you, but they will recognize scent, and to a degree, even recognize you visually IMO. You just have to remember how to keep from triggering certain responses, there are many different ways to do this. My burmese recognizes when it's feeding time and when it's not, and even to the point where he examines the food to make sure it is edible now. He used to lunge at any food w/in range, which could lead to me getting tagged. But nowadays, after a couple months of patience and conditioning, he is very calm and deliberate w/his eating. Nothing is fool proof b/c they are unpredictable animals, but you can cut your odds down with having an incident if you take precautions and are very aware of your snake's movements and behavior.

Also, some snakes can become very partial to their owners. To the point where they will not allow anyone else to handle them w/out incident. Some will see you as their protector, and if they percieve something as a threat, they will jump to you for safety, as if you are their mobile hidebox lol. I have a baby green anaconda, who is very sweet in nature, but does not like to be restrained at all by anyone beside myself. At the vet, if i'm not touching her, she flings around, twists, constricts, pee's, and everything else she can do to get away. They put her down on the table, and she immediately slithers straight to me and climbs up my arm or whatever is available. If i'm holding her, nobody needs to restrain her at all, she mellows out and let's the doc do his job. This doesn't always happen, it all depends on the animal and how you handle it. I handle my snakes pretty frequently, which does make a huge difference in temprement. Funny thing is though, the anaconda i handle the least b/c she's been sick, yet, never ill-tempered w/me.

Hope this helps
Jason

Anacondas are smarter than most boas & pythons.

I had a yellow that could open her cage whenever she wanted to, but she'd just hang out when she got out.

I felt she needed a lot of attention like a dog, more than a
normal boa/python if you know what I mean...

I agree, they are smarter than the others. But they can also be the most stubborn and ill-tempered when they wanna be. When you look into the eyes of a conda......i feel that something behind there is looking back, moreso than just a primitive brain that has no comprehension besides eat, sleep, poop.

But i still think what i said before applies to pythons as well. Each species lends a different behavior. Burmese are more laid back, mellow. They are more of ambush predators, so they tend to chill and let things flow. But at the same time, b/c of their mellow nature, people get complacent w/them and sometimes pay for it. Retics are alert, stubborn, and very fast for their size. In the wild, burms, condas, and most of the other big ones will turn and run at the first sign of trouble. Retics are the only ones really known for turning around and facing off w/the threat. That's why when you see people capturing large retics, it's like 7-10 people, and sometimes that's not even enuff lol. This is one of the reasons they have such a bad reputation. As i said, it all depends on the species. Just know what you are getting into and know your animal. Be safe and never turn your back on one that is capable of causing serious injury. If you follow those guidelines, you have nothing to worry about.

The beauty of a discussion like this is, there is no proof.
You think that you have seen several examples of snakes recognizing their owner and even interacting with you.
To me you have'nt given any examples of that. In my opinion the people you have allowed to hold the little anaconda were not snake people. They were probably people with less experience than yourself. Let another experienced handler hold the snake and you may be surprised.
I also do not see anacondas as being any more or less intelligent than any other boid. There are of course differences in temperment, activity level,etc... in the different giant snakes. One guy, I forgot his name, summed up the 3 giant pythons perfectly. I wrote it down it was so perfect. Naturally I can't find it. But clearly this individual had worked with those 3 species extensively.
I had 1 burm for 14 years 10 of those years she was my only snake. Currently I have over 50 snakes. I don't think any of them recognize me.
My friend who has forgotten more about venemous than I'll ever know swears King Cobras are not snakes. He says they need their own classification. They are way to smart to be considered a snake.
Crocodilians I am certain recognize people. Once again I probably can not prove it I just have anecdotical evidence.
Danny Conner (the other poster)

Very clear and easy to interpret. I like that.

Yeah, these guys can be somewhat complex but at the same time when it boils down to it they are also very simple and easy to understand. If something upsets them they just want to get the heck outta Dodge and dissappear. After things calm down they are back to their old selves and it's like nothing ever happened.

I myself have found anacondas to be very interesting. Moreso than many of the more predictable species. Similar in nature to the rocks. They are interesting in their individuality and their apparent capacity to display emotion. I know this may sound a bit stupid and that maybe I am anthropomorphizing them and their traits but they genuinely seem to understand me and what I am doing when I am interacting with them and they let their own guidelines be known and if I step over those guidelines they let me know it. But when they do, sometimes with a little non-personal warning nip, they continue on calmly and do not tend to panic or get upset. It's like, "Hey hombre, it's the rules, I said don't touch my tail that way, and y'all did, and that is the consequence", lol

Never a day goes by that I don't learn something new about these amazing creatures. That's what makes it so much fun. They never cease to interest me or hold my attention.
Our Website

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Sorry about calling you the "other poster," it was never meant to sound rude, i was just being lazy and didn't feel like looking back to who wrote it. You're right, there is no proof, or any real way to prove it. Maybe a research study some day, but in order to really do it you would need many different kinds of snakes and a lot of time on your hands lol. I'll just leave it at i agree to disagree. We both have different experiences, nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion. That's why i love to discuss things like this, we get to hear from everyone else's experience as well. Just to let you know, a buddy of mine, who is a big reptile enthusiast, owns several different boids and is quite experienced w/them came over last night to see my snakes. I brought out the conda and let him hold her......yeah....that lasted a total of 3 seconds before she turned around and struck at him lol. I grabbed her up, put my hand right in front of her face, she immediately climbed up on me, cool as can be. I'm suprised she did that, she's never aggressive really, just doesn't seem to like it when other people touch her. You can believe me or not, i just know what i see, and i see recognition. I just refuse to believe they aren't capable of it. Just my opinion, that is all.

Once, I had an incredible screw-up where not only did the cat in the photo, Spot, sneak in behind me, hide, and get shut up in a snake room where I was cleaning cages; but I turned out the light, exited the room and shut the door having neglected to close a 52” cage that contained a large blood python curled up in her hide container. The container was similar to the one in the photo below.

Apparently, soon thereafter, using up one of his nine lives, the cat blithely jumped into the cage, went over to the open hide box and peered down inside.

Luckily I was nearby when I heard a peculiar-sounding commotion – a kind of bam-bam-bam – coming from the snake room. When I opened the door and turned on the light, the cat came streaking out, stopped, and sat down behind me with blood dripping from his face onto the floor. When I looked into the open cage, the blood python’s head was sticking out of the top of her hide, pointed toward the ceiling, stock still and waiting for that cat thing to come back for round 2.

Aside from the bruising and having a couple of python teeth sticking out of his face, the cat was okay – this time. Two out of the three of us were lucky.

When I was in high school I worked in a pet store. A lady that supplied us with our rats and worked there on Saturdays (only for the discount) had a bunch of big snakes at her house that I and another employee had to help her feed. She had a 14'x12' sunroom converted into a snakeroom. She had a couple of pig blankets, a water trough, and a tree trunk in there with 3 adult burms, 2 adult retics, and a rock python male. She consistantly bred the burmese. She had a female albino which at the time was 22' long and weighed over 400 lbs not gravid. So they wouldn't fight she would take them out individually and feed them in the living room floor.

One day we had the big female out and she took down 3 huge rabbits. She went to get another one because she still seemed hungry and I looked over to see a male iguana she had which roamed the house getting ready to poop on my varsity coach on the couch. It started to arch its back and I jumped over and ripped the coat out from under him. The iguana freaked out and bolted behind the couch, chasing out her daughters cat. As the cat made a mad dash across the living room the burmese slung around and grabbed it before we could do anything. She was just coming back when it happened and saw the whole thing. She ate the cat and the 4th rabbit. I am just glad I wasn't there when she told her daughter what happened.

That huge female would consistantly drop massive clutches, almost 100 each time, and last I heard (5 years ago) was over 24' and still going strong. Hopefully next time I am home I can go and visit her to see how everything is going and get some good pics of those monsters she has.

I figured you all would enjoy that one, especially those cat haters out there, it is about time they got the short end of the stick for once instead of senselessly killing all the songbirds and baby squirrels in my neighborhood.
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1.21 ball pythons
1 speckled kingsnake
1 snapping turtle
1.0 argentine horned frog
1.1 English Bulldogs