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Update :: Stargazer Disease/Syndrome (pictures included)

lindsay78 Jul 28, 2003 05:19 PM

Well, things have taken a turn for the worse.

I just got home from work, and now i have ANOTHER one that's just as bad as the first 'bad one'.
Two of the babies are now running around in circles, with there heads completely upright. I decided to take a few pictures, as I feel this can/will/would be useful for the forum, and used for future reference. This is extremely frightening for me, and I'm sure all of us can relate in one way or another. The feeling of helplessness is extreme.
I started force feeding them a mixture of Vitamin B and chicken babyfood, But I really highly doubt the damage that's already done can be turned around. That's what you see in the picture. Just the baby food still on the face of the baby.
It's dreadful to look at, and i'm on the verge of just wishing they didn't have to go through this horrible thing. It looks painful beyond belief.

This is my beardie's first cutch of babies, and I think it's the last.

After corresponding with Cheri, it's now clear that no one is exactly sure what causes this. It could be a number of things, and chances are it's genetic and passed on through the parents.

I will keep you all posted


-----
Lindsay//
::Beardeddragons.ca::
lindsay@beardeddragons.ca

Replies (20)

reiko Jul 28, 2003 05:22 PM

and you also, know how hard it can be watching them suffer, you are doing the best you can and sometimes its just not enough no matter how hard you try. I guess all you can do is consider the route you want to take with these little ones, know you will choose the most humane one.....
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reiko
photos

veronicag Jul 28, 2003 05:25 PM

I can't imagine the pain you must be in to see your beautiful babies like this. I hope none of the other show any signs of this horrible disease!

I'm just curious though ... did you take one to the vet for a professional opinion? We can only do so much for one another over the internet... If there's a chance that this is being caused by some bacterial infection or something, then it could be fixed...?

Just a thought. God bless. You're all in my thoughts and prayers.

Veronica
Beautiful Dragons

lindsay78 Jul 28, 2003 05:53 PM

That's a whole other story.
I'm not impressed with the vet.
It took me half a day just to let me talk to the damn vet.

Basically, there's not enough known about this disease.
I could shell out $150 per dragon (for check up and the vitamin b shot) and have no guarantee that this will help this.
She said it's a 50/50 chance to helping things.

Because I have two babies with this, I'm not willing to go the 50/50 route. As horribly inhumane that may sound, I highly doubt these little ones will be helped by a Vit b injection.

I'm doing what I can, and I feel in this case, nature will now take its route.
I'm sharing my venture along the way, to hopefully find a cure for this, and help anyone else that might have to go through this (hope to god, not)

In the mean time, lets keep our fingers crossed, and hope for the best.
-----
Lindsay//
::Beardeddragons.ca::
lindsay@beardeddragons.ca

veronicag Jul 28, 2003 06:01 PM

Oh Lindsay, I didn't realize that you had already inquired with the vet. Geez, I don't envy you at all. How ridiculous! I can't believe that vets and researchers don't know more about these wonderful creatures yet! I feel so helpless. If there is anything that I can help you with, you just let me know.

You're doing the right thing. Be strong! With a lot of luck and lots of love they might just pull through.

God bless,
Veronica
Beautiful Dragons

CheriS Jul 28, 2003 09:00 PM

I really do not think a vet could do anymore. But it is an option open to her or anyone facing this. Ataxia or stargazing has many causes, some can be helped to a certain extent if the problem is Calcium channel, sodium channel or a vitamin malabsorbtion related, she is addressing those. But, there is something casuing it, and there are no treatments for those things

When you see it in one baby from a clutch, that would indicate it is something within that baby, a defect or something malfunctioning in the neurological system and you treat the symptoms, like she is doing.

When it appears in more than one offspring in stages, most are genetic or viral, and no one can do anything about that or help them. There is no treatment for the viral infections that cause this or the genetics that do. Both come from one or both of the parents.

I commend her for bringing this to the forum and adding to the knowledge that all can gain from this. It shows a side of breeding that can happen when the owner is doing everything right. She is being responsible and making decisions that are very hard to make and doing the right thing so future offsprings do not suffer this in the future. She is not the first with clutches like this, most of the info goes on in private emails, but she is one of the few that is sharing it with others here for their future information and knowledge and should be thanked for that.

Anyone interested can look at the link below that outlines the causes of this and I think by doing so, you will see there is not much that can be done. Even treating the symptoms, can not correct the base cause, all you can do is continue to treat the symptoms and try to keep nutrition in them.
Ataxia

barker109 Jul 28, 2003 05:36 PM

Gosh, I'm so sorry you and the babies have to go through this.
I wish I had words of wisdom but I don't. Just keep the faith and hang in there.
Take care,
karen

kungfu28181 Jul 28, 2003 05:59 PM

Hey, I am really sorry that this is happening to you. It may be better for you and the beardies if the beardies are just "put down"if you know what I mean). I don't mean to be cruel but it might be the right thing to do. You know how much they are suffering, and if you were in their position you may want to just wish you would die because of how much suffering you were having to go through.

I really don't mean to be cruel, so please don't look at this the wrong way.

LdyPayne Jul 28, 2003 06:30 PM

though I am not sure on the details of the stargazing syndrome or if it can be treated in any way, puting the bearded dragons down may be a bit premature. This would be something that should be discussed in detail with the vet. If the vet is a good one he may be able to find some research on this ailment and see if there are any treatments possible, the cost and whether the dragon's quality of life will be good.

If there is no treatment and/or the quality of life is low, putting them to sleep may be the only humane thing to do.

kungfu28181 Jul 28, 2003 07:43 PM

How would it be premature?

LdyPayne Jul 29, 2003 11:15 AM

Premature in the way that there may be ways to treat this ailment. As I am no expert on it I can't say for sure. This is something that needs to talked with a skilled and knowledgeable Vet specializing in reptiles. That is what I mean by premature. If there is no treatment nor gain in keeping the dragons alive to study how best to treat this disease (assuming it isn't completely genetic in nature) then putting them down would be the most humane thing to do.

kungfu28181 Jul 29, 2003 02:26 PM

I get your point.

Joel R Jul 28, 2003 07:53 PM

You are and have done all you can. You have to keep in mind that nature has it's checks and balances. They are not all going to make it, no matter how hard we sometimes try.

Give yourself a good pat on the back for trying as hard as you have.

Joel R

kevin s. Jul 28, 2003 08:08 PM

thats what my little female is doing now...I have know idea about stargazing syndrome ...Is there anything i can do? Kevin

kevin s. Jul 28, 2003 08:21 PM

That is what my female is doing right now ...Is there anything i can do...to help her? Kevin

eternal Jul 28, 2003 09:46 PM

and i pray that you can see this through and your babies will make it alright... lol

starmom Jul 28, 2003 11:56 PM

.
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Life is what happens when you are making other plans.......

Gunilla Jul 29, 2003 01:39 AM

Lindsay... I am so sorry that you and your babies has to go through this... It is so hard to see a baby suffering. I hope they will be ok. Thank you for sharing your story about this, I know it can't be easy.
Take care of yourself!
/Gunilla

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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

ToniaD Jul 29, 2003 03:07 AM

...how sorry I am that your babies & you are experiencing this. I also want to thank you for posting about it. If I were to ever witness something like this, recalling these posts about this condition & your willingness to share your experiences, would reduce a little of my anxiety. Thank you, & God Bless!
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God Bless, Beardie Dreams, & Peace!
Pogoniacs™

snakecharmed Jul 29, 2003 05:22 AM

Lindsey,
My heart breaks for you and your precious babies, I know it has to be painful to watch and I know its painful for the babies. If it is in fact stargazer disease, then it is a form of virus (at least that is what I have been told). I know alot of vets have never really worked with this disease or at least not knowladgable and as far as I know, it's not treatable, that is just assuming that it is stargazer. Just as a safty measure, I would isolate the babies that are suffering from this. Keep giving them special attention and love and they just could pull out of it! I have seen reptiles (and other animals) do amazing things when it comes to recovery, so don't give up hope! Good luck and I hope they pull through for you. Keep us posted! Christy

LindsayMarie Jul 29, 2003 08:43 AM

I am very sorry to hear that a couple of your babies are not well. I do however want to commend you on your care of the sick babies and your willingness to share this experience with others. I know how hard it can be to post anything on this forum, for fear of being attacked. I am glad to see that so far everyone has supported you, for you are a wonderful asset to this board and are greatly deserving of everyones compassion and good thoughts.

Just remember, God has a plan. We might not understand it or agree with it but we do have to accept it. Those babies are getting all the TLC they can get under your care and that is all you can do sometimes.

Sometimes an illness can look dreadful from an onlookers point of view and assuming they are in pain is automatic. But with many neurological illnesses, the victim of the horrible disease/illness, is often not in any pain at all. I am not saying that these babies are or arent in pain, because I am not a vet and cannot determine that.

I have a cat who has always been healthy, active, talkactive and quite the comedian. Last year at around 7 years of age she came up to the house, wobbling and falling over. We brought her to the vet immediately and the vet thought it to be a inner ear infection and prescribed antibiotics, ear salve and no outdoor play until better. Well we went through all the antibiotics and salve and no change. During these two weeks, she needed to be lifted up to eat, drink, go to the bathroom, etc. She could not stand on her own and when she would try she would fall over, HARD, with a LOUD thump. We piled blankets and pillows under the bed and this is where she stayed 99% of the time. Its where she felt safest, seeing as she felt exposed to all the other animals and unable to defend herself, if need be. After 2 weeks and no change we brought her back to the vet. The vet said it was probably a very bad infection and needed another round of treatment. She jump started the second treatment with a antibiotic shot and sent us home with more antibiotics to give orally. Basically to make a long story short, we went through 3 treatments of antibiotics and even after the last treatment she was not much better. A few months after the first onset of this problem, she began to walk around the house a little, but looked like a drunk cat and often fell over. We assisted her for the most part, but often when she tried on her own, when we werent looking, she would fall over towards the side her head was leaning to. Its been over a year since she came home wobbly one evening. She now walks on her own again and even goes outside once in awhile, but she stays VERY close to the house. She lives with a constant head tilt and has lost the majority of her balance. Today she talks even more then she used to and demands lots more love and treats! She sits infront of the cabinet that has the kitty treats and meows at us till we give her some!! Whether or not she was in pain those first 3-4 months, I will never know. I do know this, I didnt give up and neither did she. There were times when we thought maybe it best to put her down, but we just couldnt, because no one could say for sure if she were in pain and we felt it our duty to protect and help her if there was still hope and she wasnt in pain. We left it in Gods hands and had faith that He would do the right thing.

Sometimes thats all you can do, Lindsay.

I will pray for the babies and you and I hope that you will keep us updated. If you ever need to talk, just e-mail me and I can give you my phone number through e-mail. Take care Lindsay, LindsayMarie

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