Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been keeping monitors for about ten years, and lost a 6 foot nile last year after a winter power outage.(I am better prepared with propane heater). I have a water monitor and a peach throat both about 30" total length and would like to move both of them into my enclosure which is 8'Lx 5'W x 5'H with an additional 150 gallon tank added to the front for swimming/soaking. I had a friend who owned a reptile store in Pa who had a similiar set up with a water and a mangrove living quite well together(his personal pets, not for sale), and was wondering if I would be able to do the same. Any and all input would be greatly appreciated. Also, being is they climb in and out of there water, what would be a good idea for a substrate. The water is filtered with a Fluval filter. Thanks in advance.

Mike

I would not take the chance. Peach throats are in the smaller size and bulk range of the Mangrove complex. Not saying it will not work though, just consider that peachie most likely will not be as big as the mangrove that worked.

I understand what you are saying, but they will start out together at the same size. With seperate hide places, and basking areas, you still don't think it will work? I also have an idea of the living area to change to 18'Lx4'Wx7'H with the swimming area built into the end in an "L" shape. Other than the 150 gallon swimming tank, there should be a decent amount of space to hide, bask, or climb for the two. I don't know, what do you think with this idea?

Not a good idea at all. Peach throats don't get near as large as a water, my largest male peachie is mabye 3.5'. waters can get twice that. The peachie is going to get dominated if not just plain eaten. Plus what is the point of keeping them together? There is no benifit to the lizards.

Steve

Thanks for the input. I know the difference in size, but for now I have one very large enclosure that would house both 30" monitors. Eventually, this enclosure will not be big enough for a full grown water, but until then they could both benefit from a large land area with 150 gallon swim/soak area. I have seen a water and a mangrove together in a similiar enclosure with the water being somewhat larger. It is just an idea so I don't treat one better than the other. In time I will be building across a long wall an 18foot x 5 foot x 7foot(H) display for the water monitor. Other construction projects are on going and have to be completed first.

If you are keeping monitors for your own personal convenience(which from your posts,it is clear that you are), you shouldn't be keeping monitors period.
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Treemonitors.com

if you have room for an 18 foot long cage why not just split it in two. like 9 foot or make the one for the water bigger. give the water 10ft and the other one 8ft. 21 different species is a recipe for disaster.

I think if I read what I wrote correctly, I state that I want to treat my animals fairly. I can guarantee you that all of my pets, including my reptiles live excellently, and I give them more attention than I do myself. I do not see anywhere in my post where I talk about my convienience. I appreciate any positive input, but for the idiots that have nothing good to add, keep it to yourself. As I said in previous posts, I was friendly with the owner of a Reptile Store in Pa. He was published in several reptile magazines over the years, and I found him to be very knowledgeable. He kept a large water with a smaller mangrove without incident. He is no longer available, so I can't ask him. I turned to what I hoped would be a place where experts would gather to share information. I see in the three days I am a member here people getting attacked for asking questions that some know-it-all does not like. A shame that something like this forum can't spread the good and bad things without the big mouths chiming in. Just my two cents. To those with good intentions, I thank you for your opinions.

What benefit to either animal would housing them together offer? What advantage/s does interspecific housing offer, that keeping them separate doesn't?

I personally cannot think of a single benefit towards the health and well being of either animal, which could come out of such a scenario, which is why I feel that this more of an issue with keeper convenience than anything else. If it isn't for your convenience, or for some preference that you yourself may have, why would you want to keep them in such a situation?
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Treemonitors.com

Lets try again. I have the one enclosure that is fairly large. I have another that is 4'6"L x 3'6"W x 4'H. In my mind the two would have more room in the large cage which has a much greater amount of land area, plus a 150 gallon wide tank for soaking. When I am done remodeling my basement, i will be constucting what I plan to be an 18 foot long display enclosure for the Water with yet another large swimming pond and water fall. I have what I have for now, and I have two reptiles of similiar size and enviromental needs that could benefit from the larger living space. I can't simplify things anymore for you. It was a question for someone with specific knowledge, not for your entertainment value, or for you to pass judgement on me. You may go find another post to be negative on, as I am looking for positive responses and information that I might not have myself. BYE

Size is almost irrelevant in this situation, and should be the least of your concerns. You must think about how each individual will react to having not just another inhabitant sharing its already dimminutively sized home range/territory, but a completely different species.

It is difficult enough to get two members of the same species to peacefully coexist with one another within such a confined area(not just coexist peacefully, but receive all the necessesary resources they need to carry out a healthy life), much less a completely different species.

In most captive situations, where animals are forced to live within unnatural conditions, the animals feel threatened by one another's presence. Things which pose a theat to an individual include competition for food, competition for other resources, competition for ample basking locations, competition for adequate areas of retreat/refuge, the possibility of being preyed upon by the other individual(or vice a versa), the possibility for the cagemate to be a vector for disease.... the list goes on.

The benefits of maintaining each individual separately greatly outweighs the costs of keeping them in slightly smaller cages. Smaller cages can be made useable and resourceful if the right conditions are offered.

Just as animals make decisions in the wild, cost vs. benefit plays an important role in what ends up being used or acquired. The same rules apply to captivity(or at least should).
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Treemonitors.com

I see your reasoning with the different species, but seriously, do you have to act like a know it all? Do you know that these species are really agressive to each other? A lot of species are actually only agressive to their own kind. Do you know that this is not the case with these two? Did you ask him if he plans to do regular vet check ups and make sure they are not passing any infections to each other?

And last of all how do you call him out saying he should not own a monitor, who are you? He wants to do something really BIG and sounds like his intentions are good, so give some posative advice and get over yourself. This world is too big and people are too indipendent to copy your every idea on husbandry. Not asking others to re-invent the wheel but no one ever came up with better husbandry by copying someone else.

I never stated that I was a know-it-all. My previous post outlined some of the most basic factors involved in interspecific interractions among wild animals(captive animals are still wild and share the same instinctive behaviors). These are just a few of many basic ecological factors which govern the distribution of individuals within a population/community.

Virtually all animals in the wild(especially different species, much less geographically isolated species, as in this potential pairing) avoid eachother, unless of course living in social or eusocial groups(this has yet to be proven/applied to wild varanids). Individuals form home ranges and territories(sometimes both are the same). In most cases, the only time two different species will come together and interract with one another is in the case of predation. What other reason would one species come into contact with another species? For companionship? Animals tend to distance themselves from eachother and avoid one another for many reasons, some of which I included in my previous post.

While I hate to use humans as an example to compare to varanid or reptilian behavior, let's put yourself in a similar situation as these monitors would be, if set up as planned. How would you feel if you were forced to live your entire life confined to an area the size of a walk in closet which you must share with a complete stranger(let's say somebody from the other side of the world- China perhaps, who speaks not a word of english)?

Would you feel comfortable?

Would you feel safe(does this stranger want to kill you, so that he no longer feels threatened by your presence?)?

Would you not mind walking in/crawling around in/laying in this stranger's feces(would he like to be exposed to yours?)?

Would you not be concerned if this stranger is infected or carrying some sort of disease which could infect you?

-FOR Phantasticus: the actual spread of an infection is not what is threatening here, it is the fear of contracting a pathogen from the other animal- getting the animals checked out by a vet will not remove this threat

Would you not be concerned with this stranger taking your food away from you?

Would you live a stress-free life without ever having the ability to isolate yourself from this stranger(in constant sight of him, always watching you)?

There are reasons why animals have territories which they defend in the wild. Slapping two animals together in a single enclosure and expecting that they'll do just fine is a foolish logic to have, as you are not taking into account the interractions between the captives, which ultimately determine their health, well being, and survival.

Introducing opposing sexes of the SAME species can be a difficult task in itself(as many people of this forum have encountered), and may often not work out as planned(for many of the same reasons listed above). Now, instead of trying to introduce an individual of the same species, you are forcing a completely unnatural situation upon two geographically isolated species.

My posts address additional factors which come into play in such situations/scenarios, as the original poster has apparently only taken spacial limitations into account when planning for this introduction. While I am sure we all wish it was that simple,("give them enough space and they'll do fine"!)unfortunately, it is much more complicated than the issue of space alone.
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Treemonitors.com

Hmmmmm....

Locked in a walk-in closet with a Lucy Liu look-alike that doesn't speak a word of English.

Wait, what was that bad part again? hahahaha

--Robert

HAHA, that was great
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Ed

Have you tried mixing species? What were your experiences? Can you back up your claims that the interspecies factor necessarily means more problems than same species?

I have detailed my experiences in a different post in this thread. Summarized:

It really seems to be no different than keeping any two animals together. You have to have a proper enclosure suitable for two animals. If you have such an enclosure, you have fewer or no problems regardless of species. If you do not have such an enclosure, you have problems regardless of same or different species.
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.

I do agree that many of the same threats and behaviors that I mentioned for interspecific interractions can/do apply to intraspecific situations. To me however, it seems as though you are suggesting that animals react the same way to members of their own species, as they do to different species, which I do not agree with.

All organisms have ways of distinguishing themselves from other species. There are many different mechanisms of species recognition,including morphological characters,patterning and coloration, chemical cues, visual cues and behaviors, as well as many, many others. Animals use these various different forms of recognition to prevent themselves from mating with the wrong species, and decreasing their own reproductive fitness; after all, fitness is the ultimate driving force behind life(perhaps not necessarily in us humans?).

If we had no self-identity, and was unable to decipher what species we were, what would prevent us from attempting to mate with dolphins, or tigers, or turtles? How would a species be able to survive? We would not get far as a species; neither would anybody else. Therefore, animals must react differently in interspecific interractions than same species interractions. They must associate the differences between themselves and anybody else that isn't them.

What reason would two members of the SAME species have to purposely/actively come into contact with one another in a non-aggresive, non-competative manner in the wild? The only thing that I can think of is to mate. What other benefits do monitors gain through mutual interractions(where one animal is not taken advantage of/competed against) with conspecifics, other than reproduction? Do they take turns feeding eachother? Do they help raise eachother's young? Do they collectively go out and pack hunt?

Setting animals up for captive reproduction is the only reason why I would ever house two monitors together. As unnatural as the conditions may be(housing a pair of animals together in a much-restricted area compared to their home ranges in the wild), this pairing does represent a naturally occurring, non-competative(and thus non-threatening) interraction which is a part of their biology/ethology(males meeting with females to achieve a mutual goal of reproduction).

I do question keeping males of the same species together in an enclosure together, as well as members of separate species. Is there ever a reason why these animals(either intrasexual or interspecific) would ever actively seek out such a non-aggressive interraction with one another? In either of these two situations, the animals will only see eachother as a threat or competitor to one another(ie. food, basking spots, hiding spots, potential disease, etc.).

In an interspecific grouping, there is no reason why either animal would non-competitively or non-aggressively interract with the other, as it plays absolutely no role in increasing either of their own reproductive fitness(no benefit), in fact doing so would more than likely decrease their fitness.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, animals make decisions in life according to the potential costs and benefits of the particular situation. If the costs outweigh the benefits, as in this case(cost of being killed by a cage mate- with no potential benefit from living with another species), the situation is avoided, and the animals would head off in opposite directions. By forcing two animals in a costly situation(where they cannot get away from eachother), the likelihood of having things work out problem-free is very slim to none.

I just do not see any reason why you would set your animals up in such a situation which has so many more inherent risks(and costs) associated with such a pairing, when compared to keeping them safely(incident-free) in individual enclosures.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your motivation for housing all of your salvators together with your iguanas in your basement? I am having a difficult understanding why you would take the "difficult" route to housing your captives, as opposed to a potentially safer and less-invasive approach.
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Treemonitors.com

What happen to all those pictures floating around of Igies trying to mate with bearded dragons or the many other species...would be a shot at this in-depth scientific answer.

treemonitor guy-"The benefits of maintaining each individual separately greatly outweighs the costs of keeping them in slightly smaller cages. Smaller cages can be made useable and resourceful if the right conditions are offered."

One thing for sure cost is of no concern. He obviously is not trying to make money or even prevent extra costs. He simply wants to duplicate a set up that has worked for someone else with the best of intentions. Lets help him do that, and if you have no advice other than how to breed or keep in smaller cages, something of no use in his thread, then you are really no help to him.

I am not referring to monetary 'costs'.

I was referring to the physiological and ecological costs that may come with such a pairing. Such costs include(but are not limited to) the cost of inuries due to cagemate aggression, the cost of loss of food intake due to dominance, the cost of illness due to the inability to access optimal basking spots to maintain a healthy metabolism, etc...

The costs of housing these animals together outweigh the benefits which keeping the animals together offers. Therefore, by keeping the animals separately, even if in smaller enclosures, you are reducing all of the inherent risks(costs) associated with keeping them together.

While to us humans, monetary costs may be important in how we live our lives and interract with other conspecifics, it is not how the natural world works. In the natural world, organisms weigh out the costs and benefits of a given behavior or action. If the costs of an action or situation weighs more than the potential benefits, the action is not carried out.

I guess it is similar in that you will not purchase something which costs more than it's worth(the benefit to you). Would you spend $500 on a pencil? Of course not, as the benefit of the pencil does not match up with the cost of acquiring it.
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Treemonitors.com

You stated the following:

I was referring to the physiological and ecological costs that may come with such a pairing. Such costs include(but are not limited to) the cost of inuries due to cagemate aggression, the cost of loss of food intake due to dominance, the cost of illness due to the inability to access optimal basking spots to maintain a healthy metabolism, etc...

Do these costs occur only when mixing species? If not, then why the big uproar over mixing? In truth, the costs you mention are present regardless of whether the species is the same or different. Those costs are related to problems with the enclosure not differences among species. Make a decent enclosure and most of those problems are eliminated. Observe the animals and adjust the enclosure, and you further eliminate problems. It has little to do with interspecies mixing.
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.

I don't believe Bob was referring to monetary costs.

Jennifer Guerra
Jungle Gems Exotics
www.JungleGemsExotics.com

...but who better to explain a thought than the author?

Jennifer Guerra
Jungle Gems Exotics
www.JungleGemsExotics.com

I do rescind my initial comment; I misunderstood your rationale for such a pairing. My apologies.

Despite my inappropriate initial response, I do think that there have been many important issues brought to the table here which perhaps you did not originally consider. There are many other factors to take into account other than spacial limitations.

Good luck, and Regards
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Treemonitors.com

Many great points were brought up here. That was my intention for asking. I did not write to anounce my intentions. I had hoped that others would have done something similiar to this and I could get some helpfull pointers. I do consider myself to be experienced as a keeper, but there are always new things to learn. Try to remember, for others that will post in the future, that we all were beginners one day, and questions that may seem crazy are people looking for help in doing the best they can for another living creature. Perhaps then our passion for these creatures will promote better communication among ourselves, and the non reptile owning public.Thanks, for your opinions on this subject. I doubt that I will be taking any chances with mixing them.

Mike

>What benefit to either animal would housing them together
>offer? What advantage/s does interspecific housing offer,
>that keeping them separate doesn't?

Mental stimulus.

--Robert

I'm not sure if this was sarcasm or not, but I can think of dozens of less-costly(virtually no inherent risks) techniques which can be used for stimulation/enrichment.

I think that you can do much better(and be more responsible) than dumping two different species into a confined area for mental stimulation.
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Treemonitors.com

You said

"I personally cannot think of a single benefit towards the health and well being of either animal, which could come out of such a scenario"

I gave you an honest single benefit, if I was being sarcastic I would've said food. I doubt you could do much that would be similiar except add another same species monitor (which could bring about all the same problems noted in this entire thread).

I have kept different species together, and I find it incredible the pictures some paint of it. It is not that different from keeping same species together, just a bit more work making sure both are provided for.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, just some of the things that brought you to it.

--Robert

I do not get it. The hostility and insults are just disappointing. Even the people I like on this forum have gotten ridiculous with their holier-than-thou crap.

Why does it matter if they are different species? Do they care? Do they even know? This view that housing together two different species is some horrendous evil act is just stupid. That it necessarily means someone is irresponsible or inexperienced is just foolish. You people do know that crosses between species exist, right? They were not created via artificial insemination. That means - GASP - they had to live together!

I have kept many different species together. They do not seem to concern themselves like people do with different colors, races, species, etc. Their concerns seem more based on size, temperment, food, and space. These problems exist within species as well as cross species. We all know people who keep water monitors together and have to separate them due to potential massacres. Same species so why all the problems?

I keep iguanas with my waters. I have kept 3 different iguanas with 4 different water monitors, in various combinations. No one eats anyone, no one picks on anyone, no one seems to care.

I have kept an ornate (nile) with waters. No problems. I kept a small (relative to the waters) nile with one or two waters (been a long time, so I do not remember whether it was one or two). Again, no problems. I have even allowed waters and arguses to interact. Limited problems. Interestingly enough, my 5 foot (at the time) male water never bothered my 3 foot female argus. I occasionally put him in with her when I was adjusting the cage, and sometimes he lived with her for a long time. She did not like him for a few days - up to a week. After that, she seemed to realize he was not a threat and she would bask with him and eat as normal (because I made sure they both got food). The problem I did have occurred last week. A different water nailed a smaller argus. A little blood and that was enough, I separated them (I had no intention of leaving them together permanently anyway, but I sped up my plans for separation). I have also allowed niles and savannahs to interact, and niles and arguses. I also allowed savannahs and arguses to live together.

My female water mauled her first mate every time she was ready to lay or generally not in the mood. She mauls, occasionally, her current mate. Back in December 2000, my female nile killed her mate. My arguses fought endlessly when raised together at similar sizes and had to be separated. One of those is still alive (the female who has been housed with the large water) and hates my new argus to the point that she attacks it on sight before my hand is out of the enclosure introducing the new one to her.

The number of interspecies problems I have had seem to be FEWER than same species problems I have.

Again, the key is to be observant and prepared. Watch for problems and adjust quickly. If you are going to mix species, or ANY animals, you should have a backup plan and enclosure should things go south. You should also make sure the enclosure will accomodate both animals.

Maybe these animals recognize different species. I have yet to see them care too much.
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.

While I am still taking this all in, i am preparing the enclosure. I will say, that if I do try, there will be several hide areas, four levels of basking, and of course I will feed seperately. I also understand the concerns had about this, but the idea that I should not own these wonderfull creatures because I asked for what I hoped would be real-life experiences, is absurd. These guys are in seperate enclosures and can return to them at any time. I had not prepared the larger enclosure for a new inhabbitant since the loss of my Nile, and I started working on it and had this thought. If the arguement is how terrible it is to cage these animals, then nobody should have them. Anyway, I appreciate all of the thoughts. It is sad that a few had to pass judgement without understanding what I was thinking. They may also be right, but it does not make them better or smarter than others. It was an honest question that only required honest opinions.

Mike

seriously dude why risk your animals life for this. a divider for that cage would cost like 20 bucks. and please ignore what bloodbat said. anyone who houses iguanas with waters should not be giving advice to anyone. they arent even from the same continent.

While I probably won't try it, you need to read a little closer. IT IS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!! I thought I might be offering two animals a bigger space to live instead of one

I guess I am alone in that I can see why you are thinking of it. No one can guarantee it won't work. But, it most likely is asking for trouble and I would advise against it. Housing two monitors together always has a possibility in bloodshed, regardless of size or species. Size difference just means the damage will be that much worse. Species difference in the end means nothing, unless you are trying to breed them.

Certain localities of jobiensis can get quite large, but waters are in another league.

Since you are asking this question, doesn't seem like you've kept either species for too long. This is just an added, unnecessary complication. So while it could be neat, it's not worth the possibility of something going wrong (at least IMO).

Good Luck,

--Robert

I see you are taking the right step, and repeatedly ignoring anyone who replies 'no' to your inquiry, and will keep asking over and over again until just a single person replies 'yes'.

Often you'll have people who are spineless, and give up, by listening to everyone who repeatedly tells them 'no', even though isn't what they'd like to hear! Silly, silly. Onya for sticking to your side, no matter how ludicrous it may seem to the naysayers.

In all seriousness, one is from Sundaland, one is from Wallacea. What if they make eachother sick?

The only benefit I can see -- a single cage means extra space. Unfortunately, one animal would likely be dominant, restricting the other to a smaller area of the enclosure -- thus negating this benefit of 'more area' altogether.

Is there some reason you're opposed to keeping two totally different animals separated?

I have no problem keeping them seperate. If I wanted to hear yes, I would attempt it without asking. I have not asked the question more than once, I have explained my reasoning to someone that accuses me of doing it for my own convienience. Some of you guys need to read a little slower so you get the question as asked. I actually was told by a reptile supplier, here from Kingsnake.com, that he thinks it would work. I posted after I spoke with him. I had hoped to here from someone who has tried such a thing, and have not mixed them yet for this reason. I am keeping reptiles for the better part of 35 years, and lost a collection due, including a 12 year old nile that was over 6' in length, and a dumerils to a winter power outage that dropped my house temperature for a very long period of time. I tried all over to rent or buy an alternate heater and could not find one. Today, I have what I need, and had wanted to offer two captive animals a better home instead of just one. I guess I am just terrible for thinking that I might be able to do better for them. I bow my head to the high and mighty that have so much to say without any first hand experience. This was started as an honest question. I am confident in what I do, and have been suuccesfull in keeping my animals safe and healthy for probably more years than some of you have been alive yourselves. Thanks again for anyone who has given this post an honest look. Mike

I read that you had a six foot nile that died due to a power shortage lowering the temperature of your home. How long was the power off and what temperature was your home during that time? I have a nile monitor myself (mine is only 4.5 feet long) and I live in an area of the country that does get very cold at times during the winter (the summers are very warm though). I have always wondered what the cold tolerance of nile monitors was, in case a disaster strikes.

I could not tell you at what temperature the damage was done at, but the house dropped to about 50 degrees before power and heat were restored. I had been keeping reptiles sice I was five, I was 38 at the time of loss, and never had that happen. I learned an awful lesson that day losing four friends, my Nile, a Dumerils, and two Ball Pythons. My heart is still broken, but I am now prepared with a propane run heater for any future failures. I am alos palnning a move to Southern Florida where such things won't happen. Good Luck,

Mike

Wow, I knew that 50 degrees would be a dangerous temperature for a nile monitor to be in, but didn't think it would kill it very quickly. Was the power off for several days before it was restored? I thought the lizards could tolerate reduced temperatures for short periods off time (preferably on an empty stomach) as long as they had the opportunity to warm back up.

The power was out for about 30 hours. My two monitors both developed resp infections. I had throat cultures taken and I was given meds, but I could not get either to recover. I own the home I grew up in, and never in the 30 years prior to that did I lose power for more than a few hours. I learned a hard lesson, and now I have back up heat if it ever is to appen again.

It is always disappointing to see people become so upset by such suggestions.

I have been mixing species for a long time, monitors included. I have kept waters and niles together and arguses and savannahs. I honestly do not remember if I mixed any other species with my mangrove, but I would not have had a problem (in terms of my decision making process) doing so.

In hindsight, I would not mix as many animals as I have done so in the past.

Provided that the animals need similar conditions and environments, you will probably stand a better chance of success. That the animals are the same size is a good start. The key is to be observant and prepared. If you see an animal having problems, separate it sooner rather than later. That ties into preparation. Have a second cage available.

Size is not the sole determinant of domination. I have seen smaller animals dominate larger ones.

If you want to try it, do it. However, know that you are taking some big risks and be prepared for the consequences.
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.