Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just devastated ! She died yesterday (early evening) Yesterday morning she was not waiting up top with Zimba for me to put the lights on, open the window shade and mist, the usual routine.

I looked for her, sometimes it's hard to find her she stays a light green and blends with the greenery. I did find her on a lower branch sitting, thought maybe it had something to do with her being pregnant she mated in Dec. So I left her.

A couple hours later she had moved but did not look like she was really holding on to the branch, just leaning. I picked her up and she was cold, I put her near the light, but not right under incase she could not move I did not want her to get burned.

She did not seem responsive to me and was not gripping the branch at all. She was sent to me last year with a couple inches or so off the end of her tail (won't get into that) but she could never use that to help her hold on , so basically I could see if I had not propped her up in a corner of the tree she would just fall.
I knew she was hydrated she and Zimba both drank the evening before, and both eat from my fingers as well as hunted, and had good appetites right from the start.

Within an hour after I propped her up top, she was dead. So fast !

These 2 never gave me any problems. They were always a pleasure to watch climb around hunting, and they were very gentle with each other. I really enjoy them.

Zimba will have to be alone for awhile, too many expenses right now, but maybe this summer I will try and find a healthy female to join him. I would very much like to continue working with this species.

Thats about it, my cute lil sassy Zambi has gone to join all the other chameleons we have all lost. Sad, that she was 4 months pregnant.

Cute little Zambi

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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

How sad! She was beautiful. I'm glad that you were there with her at the end of her life, still trying to help her as always. RIP Zambi, you will be much missed. Diane
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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon

They can seem fine, then just DIE.

Sorry for your loss - had it happen recently, 3 times...

It's something we almost expect from WC aniamls, in order to establish
them in captivity. It's why I never would reccomend WC animals to
anyone who isn't willing to accept the very real possibility of them dying
sooner trather than later.

The only WC animals I've delbt with in the past decade are deremensis
and brevicaudatus. My male brevs were dead within a couple months, and the
female died yesterday - she was kinda huge... so not unexpected for
such a short lived animal. I lost one female deremensis after just 10
months in captivity, and all the rest lived at least 2 years. My first WC
male died last week - I've had him about 3 years, though he was sickly
and weak as an imported juvinile, and never thrived.

Still, three years is nowhere near their life expectancy in captivity. I
know some deremensis at MBT farms in Tanzania are over 10 years old
and going. Same with melleri - they have some there that were over 15
years old. Few make it past 3 months in captivity!

I've pretty much settled on NOT ever getting WC animals as "pets" - only for breeding purposes. The CB ones are my pets.

Zambi was a very, very pretty girl- as well as big! I don't think I had ever seen two chameleons like Zambi and Zimba thrive so well in the same habitat. It was exquisite and adorable to see pics of the resting, huddled together, they really got along great. I know she will be missed greatly- By the entire forum! We loved seeing her little antics...

Oh, and for the record- I had a WC Senegal chameleon that lived in a HUGE outdoor enclosure in the summer months, and came inside during the winter months. I had him nearly 3 1/2 years before a gang of racoons managed to slip into the screened in 'greenhouse' and grab him. He was by far the best chameleon I had ever had, even better than alot of CB's out there, and he never gave me a problem. I think he actually would have lived longer if it weren't for those pesky little 'coons! So, although WC's expire sooner than almost all CB's, I think there are a few exceptions out there...

Michele

Sweet post, thanks I appreciate you and everyones compassion, we have all been there, thats for darn sure!

Anyway gosh I'm sorry about your guy, what a terrible story. I love Coons also, very cute ornery lil critters, but in this case (very NAUGHTY) Thats sad!

Hopefully your guy will keep Zambi company, and make her feel welcome,
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

I'm very sorry about all your recent loses as well I did not know But I must agree with your thinking on this. I know with her she ate well, and has done wonderful since last year.

I take extremely good care of them(as far as their placement in a cool spot/ mistings so forth) and thought they were thriving. I could have taken a pic of her this weekend and you would have thought she looked great. Now shes dead. WOW!

Anyway Eric, I have taken in many wc lizards (Not chameleons) and have worked with them, and because I'm here all day and have the time, have gotten them to thrive.
BUT... there are always those few that "FAIL TO THRIVE"
no matter what you try. I love the wc's (color..) but have to agree the Cb lizards are much heartier and make better pets for people.

I do however have to continue to try with these , and in a few months find a nice female, I enjoy them so much.

Thanks for your posts everyone, and Eric you sort of put it into prospective for me as I was just wondering WHY or HOW this happened. I do not even know how old she was , you know nothing about wc's when you get them. NOTHING !
But it is so awesome to get them to thrive, and be a part of it when it does happen.
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

Exactly - with WC, you know nothing. For breeding purposes, they're great.
Especially for species that are not yet established in captivity, like deremensis,
werneri, meru's, etc. To breed them, we got to take our chances with WC!

I would have dozens of WC deremensis right now if I was single (or if I
WANTED to be single...hehe), and did not have a family to (help) support. I
have repeatedly sworn off WC animals, whenever they have some random
problem, or die from inexplicable reasons. Recently, I've just come torealize that
it's somethign I'm going to have to deal with for a while, until I can get some good
CH or CB deremensis. Even still - I'll probably get WC in in the future for
breeding stock.

I DO know why my WC aniamls died - all it took was some palpating, and a little
necroscopying...and I figured it out. My little male was sick from the start - he
became sick from a hookworm infestation shortly after importation, and it caused
him some digestive troubles. I had always thoguth it did some damage to his
intestines, as he had some bleeding for a while. As soon as I picked him up when
I found him dead, I noticed the impaction of his intestines - his colon was damaged
and scarred up, inflexible compared to the large intestine of my recently deceased
female. No hookworms, but the damage done took its toll. My female that died a
couple months ago had liver problems - seemed that even just 2-3 insects every
2-3 days is too much for a deremensis. Her fat pads were each the size of
egg-yolks, and her liver so swollen and fatty, I thought it was an impaction before
I opened her!

I ha done WC that I "rescued" for $40 from a reptile show. She was fine, though
very lightweight, for a month or so. Then her eye just swelled up to about 5X
normal size, and she died. Weird. I couldnt' figure that out, but being that she
was in the "care" of a wholesaler that didn't know squat, for quite some time, it
could be a vitamin imbalance. Deremensis tend to do well as WC, which is
probably why their price isn't very high as CB's. Despite their size, ornaments,
and disposition.

I am hoping to get a male of this subspecies/locale of deremensis for my female.
But I am REALLY hoping for a pair of the larger locale/subspecies...

I would eventually like to get some other species, like johnstoni, Meru's, quads..
but I'm really mainly interested in calptratus, melleri and deremensis - with a focus
on deremensis.

It's a struggle to get melleri and deremensis CB's, but I think it's nearly as difficult
to get a REAL good quality bloodline of calyptratus. Most are just advertized as
**sunburst chams**, with little or no pedigree info! took me literally YEARS to
find a breeder that had a bloodline from a male with the size I was looking for
(thanks Valerie!).

You said..."My female that died a couple months ago had liver problems - seemed that even just 2-3 insects every 2-3 days is too much for a deremensis. Her fat pads were each the size of egg-yolks, and her liver so swollen and fatty, I thought it was an impaction before I opened her!"...in an article I read, Dr. Mader said "Fatty liver, or hepatic lipidosis, which is the medical term, refers to a condition where the patient's liver is infiltrated with excessive fat. There are many causes of fatty liver, and in most cases, the condition itself is not a cause of death". The article goes on to talk about WC deaths that show fatty livers in autopsies that are not the real cause of death....perhaps this was not the real cause for the death of your deremensis female either?

Her death symptoms were typical fatty liver syndrome: didn't want to do anythign,eat , drink, move. there were no signs of any other illness or injury.

Typically, fatty liver is seen in chameleons that die long an dprotracted deaths, as starvation ( an all too common side affect of dying) will cause the reptilian body to conserve what little calories it takes in as fat - stored in the liver. As a result, many, if not most, reptiles that die after a prolonged period of not eating show signs of fatty liver disease.

This girl was grossly obese, not just with a fatty liver. It was clear that she was over-fed and over fattened. Her fat pads were so large, I believe they would have prevented her from laying eggs (she was also gravid, with eggs about halfway developed).

The only thing out of the ordinary in her was her liver and fat pads.

OMG, Eric. You have ENTIRELY too much time on your hands if you are performing your own necropsies, also. I do a lot of self-medicating and treatment, but I don't think I could even cut open one of my pets to save eggs if one of the females died due to dystocia. I suppose that these are not your "pets" and that would make a huge difference. How do you know what a "normal" liver looks like? LOL-Please don't tell me you chop up healthy chameleons for comparison. I admire your fortitude. Diane
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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon

Quoted from the article I mentioned in my last post...
http://www.anapsid.org/heplipidosis.html
Regarding fatty liver..."Usually, a predisposing factor is obesity. If a patient goes off food (called anorexia) the fat in the body is mobilized in the blood to the liver where it is to be used as energy for the body. But, for some reason, the liver is unable to utilize this rapid influx of fat, and the liver becomes "fatty." This is common in wild caught herps"...

You said..."Her death symptoms were typical fatty liver syndrome: didn't want to do anythign,eat , drink, move. there were no signs of any other illness or injury"...I'm not doubting that she died with symptoms of fatty liver syndrome....as you said...dying of starvation is an all too common side effect of death...a side effect that(according to the article I was quoting) makes it appear that the chameleon died of fatty liver when there is really another reason for the decline in the first place.

You said..."The only thing out of the ordinary in her was her liver and fat pads"...even if everything else LOOKED okay, did you do any cultures on any of the tissues or open her digestive system, heart, lungs, etc. (histology, pathology) that might have shown if there was anything else going on?

You did a great job of cutting her open. I couldn't do it. I just think that pathology and histology might have helped determine what she really died from....and I'm not saying that the fatty liver and fat stores in her body didn't have anything to do with it.

To answer your questions, yes, I had histological work done on the
samples I took. I had my microscope next to me when I did the
necroscopy. I took samples of nearly every tissue in her body and
studied them under the scope. In fact, I'm planning on purchasing a
digital camera adapter for my scope, so I could post images of
tissue samples online for future reference. Lung tissue, kidneys, heart,
ovaries, digestive system, all normal. No infections, no impactions,
nothing. I cut open every organ in her body, and took tissue samples of
all of them, looking for sings of infection, or damage.

I am a biologist - by profession - and I 've had extensive coursework in
anatomy and histology. I've been keeping and studying chameleons for
over a decade, and I've necroscopied many of them even before I had
formal instruction.

Eve, I was just shocked when I read this! You had never mentioned any trouble with her - b/c she never had any. How terribly sad. Will you have a necropsy done?

4 months pregnant - what is their gestation period? I assume the werneri are live bearers? Poor Zimba and poor you They say things happen is 3's so you should be done being sad for a long while...

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she's back!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I sure hope the (it happens in threes) thing is true and it's done !

Yeah really freaked me, there was nothing to tell as far as something being wrong.
I look for them, and talk with them daily, actually a few times daily they are in my dining room, so I see them often throughout the day.
Each morning like clock work they are waiting up top on a branch near their light, I say good morning, put up the blinds, they are beside a large window and love to sit there (so bright) and then I turn on their lights and mist. So when she was not there, I felt anxious, and wondered why. And found her cold and unresponsive.

I don't know if a chameleon misses another ( a mate) or if it's something WE create in our minds, but I do know these 2 slept togeher on the same limb each night one behind the other or one directly below the other.
They had a nice big home and chose to always sit togehter. I have many many pics of them (Always together.)

Zimba and Zambi looking out the window

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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

I'm so sorry to hear about Zambi. Its never easy to lose a chameleon.

I'm soooo sorry!!! What a mess these last few weeks have been! She was one of my favorite chams! With her little horn and all... Again, I'm so sorry
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Feenie

Eve, I'm really sorry.

I'm so sorry Eve, I hope Zimba is doing ok. Wow, there has been a lot of death lately in this forum. Sure is sad. I hope you will be able to find the cause of her sudden departure.
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger & Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)

Eve,

I am so sorry for your loss. There really aren't words to express the feeling when our little friends are taken away so suddenly.

Many times with these charmers, they show no symptoms at all, while others remain sickly for long periods. Either way, it hurts. Over the years, we have lost dozens - and it never gets easier.

Hopefully, you will be able to locate another mate for your little guy, if you chose to try again. Take good care,

Exactly how Godzilla went. The day after the best day he had here in my care.

It seems a lot of ours (The forums) members have been passing in the last month.

Best of luck to you and finding a new mate.

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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she's back!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Heh, My mother was more attached to that chameleon than I sometimes I think. The photo is hanging in her kitchen, framed and all.

RIP godzilla.
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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS