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Bart is having problems getting around. His right hind leg does not seem to be working right so he was falling off branches. I put him into a 2.5 gal with only low perches. He falls face forward, his eyes are often closed. Determined not to let him die I forced about .01ml of pedialyte into him (of course careful after what happened to Kaiya) and devised a way for him to eat and got 3 pinhead crix in which he ate (eventually) and swallowed.

From all I have read I would say this is MBD! How? I have no idea. I had noticed in the last few days that he would often only have three feet on the plant but thought he was just going for a FF. I have to admit with the trouble with Makeda and Kaiya I was not paying as much attention to him,. but he had always been a bit more solitary. But he began falling yesterday. I noticed today that he seemed curved to one side....ughhhh! I want to give you all the details but I also want to get this posted. I have also called my vet and the Kammers.

Weird...he just had that foot clenched (he is just on moist kleenex), when I touched it he released it.

I just know I am going to lose him...

I will take photos and post to gallery - will let you know.

Lele, try to position the vines and plants low, so that when he falls he wont hurt himself. I hope you dont loose him. This kind of does sound like MBD, but pygmys dont require lighting like conventional chameleons, do they? Baffling. Maybe the coccdia that maybe makeda had got passed to bart, and Lisa died from the lowered immune system that the medicine gave her. Or she just chocked. Try to keep him unstressed, well fed, and well hydrated. Good luck!

Anthony

I have him on flat ground with only a horizontal branch for him to hang on to if he wants. I too am thinking MBD - I am so confused

>>Lele, try to position the vines and plants low, so that when he falls he wont hurt himself. I hope you dont loose him. This kind of does sound like MBD, but pygmys dont require lighting like conventional chameleons, do they? Baffling. Maybe the coccdia that maybe makeda had got passed to bart, and Lisa died from the lowered immune system that the medicine gave her. Or she just chocked. Try to keep him unstressed, well fed, and well hydrated. Good luck!
>>
>>Anthony

have lookd at the entire leg and foot?

if the leg is croked it is either brooken or mbd..

if the leg isn't crooked (i think you said it was) check his nail to see if he has a nail infection.

i think your going to know your vet very well.....sorry its odd that all this happined in a week.

Lele-

I got your email and never posted the pic I said I would so here it is.

This was taken after I removed the leaf ground cover for cleaning, but there is leafs all over the back and sides of the tank where the soil is exposed.

Now on to the important stuff. I have not used the herpnutrition.com products. If you were using a rotation of what you mentioned in your email or just that stuff as often as you said I don't see the MBD being the cause. Now in large chameleons blood work could be done to check calcium/phosphorus ratio in the blood, I don't think this is an option. Also I would think the others would have suffered from it to because they were all feed the same foods and in the same setup. Now that being said the UVB is said not to be useful for these chameleons, but I think differently. In nature they would be exposed to natural sunlight that is filtered down from the trees, they would not get as much as the larger chameleons but none the less they would get some. This is why I chose to use a 2.0 UVB bulb.

So it could be MBD if there was no UVB light on the tank and they were getting Ca/D3. I still think this is from an injury to the foot and not from MBD, I am not a vet and not there to see things first hand. I would watch for swelling and his grip. If the foot starts to swell something is broken. I am not sure what a vet will be able to do if this is MBD because taking blood will be hard, injecting calcium will be hard, a splint will be hard, I just don't know. The same if it is broken.

I would like to hear the details from the vet/Kammers. What they have to say about this whole thing. I would also like to know what meds. the vet gave you for a stuck shed. Hope this helps!

Best Wishes
-----
John @ Chameleon Paradise
1.1 Ambilobe Panthers
1.1 Nosy Be Panthers
1.1 Sambava Panthers
1.2 Rhampholeon uluguruensis

Hi John,,

My set up is similar but Makeda was really the only one to cup feed. Kaiya never did and Bart would occasionally. How deep is your bowl?

I had not thought about the broken leg thing - I suppose it is a possibility. I just spoke Liddy and she made some suggestions to try and get him back "on his feet"

I will keep you all posted. I now have to post an apology to my screw-up on their info that I wrote...

I'll see you all tomorrow....

>>Lele-
>>
>>I got your email and never posted the pic I said I would so here it is.
>>
>>
>>
>>This was taken after I removed the leaf ground cover for cleaning, but there is leafs all over the back and sides of the tank where the soil is exposed.
>>
>>Now on to the important stuff. I have not used the herpnutrition.com products. If you were using a rotation of what you mentioned in your email or just that stuff as often as you said I don't see the MBD being the cause. Now in large chameleons blood work could be done to check calcium/phosphorus ratio in the blood, I don't think this is an option. Also I would think the others would have suffered from it to because they were all feed the same foods and in the same setup. Now that being said the UVB is said not to be useful for these chameleons, but I think differently. In nature they would be exposed to natural sunlight that is filtered down from the trees, they would not get as much as the larger chameleons but none the less they would get some. This is why I chose to use a 2.0 UVB bulb.
>>
>>So it could be MBD if there was no UVB light on the tank and they were getting Ca/D3. I still think this is from an injury to the foot and not from MBD, I am not a vet and not there to see things first hand. I would watch for swelling and his grip. If the foot starts to swell something is broken. I am not sure what a vet will be able to do if this is MBD because taking blood will be hard, injecting calcium will be hard, a splint will be hard, I just don't know. The same if it is broken.
>>
>>I would like to hear the details from the vet/Kammers. What they have to say about this whole thing. I would also like to know what meds. the vet gave you for a stuck shed. Hope this helps!
>>
>>Best Wishes
>>-----
>>John @ Chameleon Paradise
>>1.1 Ambilobe Panthers
>>1.1 Nosy Be Panthers
>>1.1 Sambava Panthers
>>1.2 Rhampholeon uluguruensis
>>
>>

Lele-

My bowl is 1.5" deep with a bowed lip. On the bowed part of the lip there is Vaseline to keep the crickets from crawling out. My group all bowl feed out of it. Once they see me dump the food in they take turns eating all day. Also Lele all my Ulu's bend there body in an S shape to the side, so I don't think you have anything to worry about there with Bart.

BEST OF LUCK!
-----
John @ Chameleon Paradise
1.1 Ambilobe Panthers
1.1 Nosy Be Panthers
1.1 Sambava Panthers
1.2 Rhampholeon uluguruensis

Hi John - Interesting about the vaseline - doesn't it get yucky?

As for the s-curve I know they bend that way but he seemed to be in tat position all the time.

See post for update on Bart.

as always, thanks
lele

>>Lele-
>>
>>My bowl is 1.5" deep with a bowed lip. On the bowed part of the lip there is Vaseline to keep the crickets from crawling out. My group all bowl feed out of it. Once they see me dump the food in they take turns eating all day. Also Lele all my Ulu's bend there body in an S shape to the side, so I don't think you have anything to worry about there with Bart.
>>
>>BEST OF LUCK!
>>-----
>>John @ Chameleon Paradise
>>1.1 Ambilobe Panthers
>>1.1 Nosy Be Panthers
>>1.1 Sambava Panthers
>>1.2 Rhampholeon uluguruensis
>>
>>

Lele-

Dirt may get stick to it but all you have to do is wipe it off and apply new Vaseline. This is done maybe every two weeks or so. Hope this helps!
-----
John @ Chameleon Paradise
1.1 Ambilobe Panthers
1.1 Nosy Be Panthers
1.1 Sambava Panthers
1.2 Rhampholeon uluguruensis

...to the point of eating crickets again I will certainly try your method. I wonder if Kristen has tried this, I know she was having cricket escapees

lele

>>Lele-
>>
>>Dirt may get stick to it but all you have to do is wipe it off and apply new Vaseline. This is done maybe every two weeks or so. Hope this helps!
>>-----
>>John @ Chameleon Paradise
>>1.1 Ambilobe Panthers
>>1.1 Nosy Be Panthers
>>1.1 Sambava Panthers
>>1.2 Rhampholeon uluguruensis
>>
>>

Lele, think positive...don't say you are going to lose him...you can't lose him. If you can't keep these little ones alive, I don't know who can as you are the most attentive keeper I know...there is no way anyone could care more about these guys.

I hope it is just a minor injury that will heal with time. Just so you know, a few days after we got my dad his Jax, he developed a swollen foot...he could barely use it and eventually he wouldn't use it to grasp...it just kind of sat next to whatever branch he was one. We took him to the vet and he suspected MBD...said to give it a few weeks and just be sure to get those crickets dusted the recommended amounts. After a week or two, the swelling went down...but then there was a black spot in between his toes and I thought he was going to either lose the foot or die. Well, it's all healed now and you can't even see where it was...the vet also thought he was missing toenails, but I suspect that it was just too swollen to see them...now his foot is back to normal, AND he has all of his toenails...he's fine. SOOOO...even when things look grim they can turn around...stay positive!
Kristen

in the foot, or in the feet. It could also be from gout. Is the gutload you are using very high in protein if so you may need to switch to a new one or use more veggies and less gutload.
Also all three got sick within days of each other which sounds like either you supplemented with something that built up to a toxic level in all of them at the same time, or they got something that was contageous and they all gave it to each other.
I think they would not have MBD with the supplementing scheduele you supplied in an earlier post. UVB helps them produce D3 so if you gave calcium with D3 to a leaf cham I do not think they would have gotten MBD that quickly. They only need small amounts of UVB anyway.
I am sorry to hear Bart is not doing well after all you have been through.

oh no! I'm sorry again.
I have some questions. Have you changed there set-up latley in any way, maybe a new live plant? Good luck will little bart.

>>Bart is having problems getting around. His right hind leg does not seem to be working right so he was falling off branches. I put him into a 2.5 gal with only low perches. He falls face forward, his eyes are often closed. Determined not to let him die I forced about .01ml of pedialyte into him (of course careful after what happened to Kaiya) and devised a way for him to eat and got 3 pinhead crix in which he ate (eventually) and swallowed.
>>
>>From all I have read I would say this is MBD! How? I have no idea. I had noticed in the last few days that he would often only have three feet on the plant but thought he was just going for a FF. I have to admit with the trouble with Makeda and Kaiya I was not paying as much attention to him,. but he had always been a bit more solitary. But he began falling yesterday. I noticed today that he seemed curved to one side....ughhhh! I want to give you all the details but I also want to get this posted. I have also called my vet and the Kammers.
>>
>>Weird...he just had that foot clenched (he is just on moist kleenex), when I touched it he released it.
>>
>>I just know I am going to lose him...
>>
>>I will take photos and post to gallery - will let you know.
-----
-Jamie Whitehouse
-corn_snake_123@msn.com
-formally known as corn_snake_123