Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We had this discussion last spring and I would like to bring it up again to see what the thoughts of the forum members are. This time I am going to add in one extra part to see if that changes anything.

So in you opinion how long is it between breeding and fertilization in your snakes?? Then how long between fertilization and egg laying?? Do you feel that is a redundant question??

Come on lets play

later Jason

I'm out of date as I havent breed anything in several years but I remember this, IF we all believed that fertilazation took place at the first attempt we would not put our snakes together more than just one time. I know Im not taking any chances this year mine have been placed together several times. As for the time between fertilazation and egg laying.....not sure... I just know to get ready when she sheds.....LOL
Thats my .02 worth
Toby
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Wow you where fast on the draw. I was typing my own response after I posted this topic and you had already responded.

So how many days are you expecting between breeding and egg laying??

later Jason

Frank you are really on a role of making great informative post and I don't think you got involved in this last spring. Plus you have a great way of breaking down the reproductive biology, physiology, and the overall process in snakes.

Personally I think there is a great deal of difference in the timing we think is the best for the breeding of our snakes and what they think. There may be some benefit in waiting for the right window. Many people last spring said that they had about 60 days between breeding and laying and I was thinking about that today. I seem to be in the 30-45 day range.

So I got to thinking that perhaps, for many, the males are indeed ready before the females like what was brought up in the talk about the durango mnt kings. Also many talked about their males forcing the breeding and being very aggressive. So are they actually forcing the breeding to early and the females are just storing the sperm for a short while until they ovulate?? Should we be looking closer for signs of ovulation before we introduce our male??

This is just what I am pondering and I would like to try to discuss this a little.

later Jason

Jason you have brought up some great points I look forward to hearing others opinion on this. I have always thought gestation would be between 45-60 days just depending on the husbandry.I think the temps the females are kept at and such has alot to do with it as well. The past feeding schedule also has to come into play as for the health of the female. LOTS of room for variables.
Again just my .02 worth
Toby
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

The main problem is, these colubrids are ectotherms. That means, their functions can vary greatly due to simple temperature use.

Of course there is a range where the snakes are successful. Keepers routinely exceed this range, both with temps to cool and temps too high. More importantly, its not the actual temps themselves, but being to consistant. Not allowing the snakes to make choices.

Normally a female colubrid will Cloacal gape(receptive) just before the ovum drop from the overies. Up until the ovum start to enlarge.

Copulation to fertilization(about the time of the pre-egg laying shed) varies from, 15 to 35 days, and fertilization to ovi-deposition is from one day to aprox. 14 days. So from copulation to ovi-deposition is simple math. A useable average is from 25 to 45 days, depending on useable temps.

As I have mentioned before, quality of nesting plays a very important part with this time. Poor nesting can indeed extend the time and quality nesting can shorten it.

So now we have useable temps and nesting choices, as a major control over this range of times.

Now you must consider that many here, CONTROL, these times by controlling conditions to the Tee. Then others offer different controlled conditions. Therefore you have a huge range of times and understandings. Cheers

As I read that I realized that you said this before so sorry for making you repeat it but this time you put it a little better for me to understand. Also you helped explain the time difference that I keep seeing between people's reported times.

Is there somewhere that you would suggest looking for this info in hard format?? Like a good book on the subject or at least a author you know of.

Thanks Jason

Charles Carpender, wrote lots of reproductive behaviors with colubrids. But unfortunately, he missed many keep behaviors, but he did hit on many. He was at U. of Oklahoma or OK state. I forget, mid seventies or so. He defined many reproductive behaviors like Cloacal gaping, etc. He did so in a very general way, missing key differences.

The other and by far the best book is sitting right in front of you. The snakes themselves. They have a funny shiny cover, but inside that cover, they have the information you will need, in fact, they have ALL the information. All you have to do is ask them(read them)

To offer the same things over and over, is like reading the same page over and over. Yes each time you read the same page, you will absorb a little more. The problem is, they contain hundreds even thousands of pages. So instead of asking silly humans(who know so little)(and are such boneheads, they keep reading the same page and then saying theres only one page) ask the snakes. They are there for you. Which I believe is why most of us keep the snakes in the first place(can't be for the money) So it must be to learn.

Such a funny thought. You have a library at home, then ask others about one page in one book. hmmmmmmmm

Please do not take offense at this direction I am taking but. One of the huge problems with biologist is, they learn and are educated to read books and papers, but not educated to read the animals. There faith is in the books and papers. This is where I part(to offend them. I part from the chosen path) My ability is to read the snakes(reptiles) and hold that information above(more important then) the information people offer. You can ask those who have been in the field with me. Its sorta a natural gift and I have worked hard to develop that gift. Cheers

I will not take offense with this issue because I think we misunderstand the process as a herp community and I am seeing different things in my collection than what has been told to me. So yeah the pages are a little different. I think that I am unfortunately on the same page as most on here because I don't fully understand the process yet. So I can't turn the page until I read all of this one.

Oh boy did you see the part in the last chapter where it said snakes need temperature ranges. That is interesting stuff but for some reason most people just seemed to have skimmed it to get here. HAHAHAHAHA

Later Jason

i've read of extreme cases where the apparent fertilization did'nt occur for a good three,or it may have even been five(!) years after copulation(sperm storage in females)....this being the extreme maximum-and of course i would think the minimum could be inside of a few minutes if not instantaneous..as for the deposition of eggs psot fertilization-dunno off the top,i wanna say what like 6-9 weeks?(i'd have to look that one up).
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I am asking in optimum conditions. You know when your female shed and she looks extra pretty and you just know it is time. You put the male in and he gets right to work and stays at until you know he did his best and those eggs got his swimmers. How long until that female drops her eggs???

As a second part how long from first clutch to second clutch and is that second one started before the first is dropped?? And if you think it takes 60 days from fertilization to laying and the second clutch comes in 30 days hows does that work??? See where I am going yet?/

Later Jason

man good questions,esp. that double clutching one-was thinking that would be a case of sperm retention,but upon further thought i don't know jason;yeah i gotta bow out without further investigation.i'm sure someone else can tell you.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I don't think this is a situation where a right or wrong answer will be agreed upon. I just notice that many people say they have a longer time between breeding and the first clutch than the time between first clutch and second clutch. That seems strange but not that big of a deal until you see that one time period is almost double the other. In that case it makes me think that the actual time from fertilization to laying is much shorter than many think.

Does that matter?? I don't know. Maybe maybe not but what it may tell us is that we are not paying enough attention to our charges.

Then the question that should be raised is can we do it better?

Will breeding closer to the time of ovulation be better for our snakes?

Will it be less stressful?

Will it give us bigger or more fertile clutches???

I think unfortunately that last one is the only one most will be interested in. And the burden of proof, if all the answers are yes, will sit on the last one. But the questions need to be asked first to be answered. All we learn in school is how to answer questions, not how to ask them. So stick around because I don't have a trump card that I am waiting to drop to prove how smart I am. I am just putting this out there

Later Jason

Typically for colubrids it takes about 6 weeks to lay eggs. Obviously there are some that lay eggs a little sooner and some a little later. I've bred all sorts of kings, milks, and corns and the average is around 6 weeks. I did have one cal king go 74 days from the last copulation until she laid eggs. That is the exception to the rule.

The few times that I did double-clutch, I would give the female a day or two to recoup before feeding again. Some females will feed right away. Some females go into shed right away as well. I introduce the males within a couple of days after she lays. I would feed frequently as well.

Kerby...

I don't know if you missed the talks last spring but many said somewhere from 45-75 days with 60 or 2 months being about the average that I remember. I will agree that about 40-45 days or 6 weeks is more the norm but you didn't give days from first to second clutch. I thought you had made a comment at one point that you kept really good records of much of the happening of your snakes. If it wasn't you sorry, but if it was, can you give some of the lengths between clutch 1 and 2.

I am just thinking about the possibility of maybe narrowing the time between breeding and laying by targeting the time of ovulation a little more. I am also wondering if it might be beneficial in any way to do that.

By the way my experience is 30-45 days from breeding to laying and about 33-40 for second clutches in the few that I have tried for.

Later Jason

I believe the "60 days" you are referring to is the incubation time. I've never seen on this forum where it was accepted that it takes 60 days until they lay.

It takes about the same time from ovulation to lay, either first clutch or second clutch.

Kerby...

I am so anal I used the search engine to try and find it but I couldn't. I did find a thread that I started and the following was said.

i don't know why it didn't put the rest of my post in the response but I did find two post one by JLassiter and one by Crimsonking in which they stated 45-60 days but somewhere else on here the idea of laying being very close to 60 days came up last spring.

Later Jason

I've only had one cal king take longer than the 6 weeks (give or take a few days on either end).

I just think that stating 60 days is very misleading.

Kerby...

I agree Kerby. That was kind of the reason for the thread. Last year Keith posted that he got eggs in 32 days on a first clutch and a few people where completely shocked by that. I think the 30 day range is far more common in my collection then 50-60 days. Above us here in this same thread FR gives a good bit of info on why there is discrepancies between all of our averages.

Later Jason

Why the second clutch is faster then the first????????? Please take a guess. Cheers

I have wonder why the length of time was different and in fact that is why i started this topic. Previously I had thought that we as keepers where introducing the males to early (still think that) and we were starting our timeline of pregnancy before the female even started. This thought was somewhat based on the thought that fertilization of the eggs happened at about 30 days prior to laying. You state above that this is not the case.

So now I need to verify what you said on the biology and steps of the egg process. I am a firm believer in not just knowing what you know but also knowing why you believe what you know. In other words I like to get more than one source telling me something and then try to confirm it if possible.

So basically I thought we had a definite start date from the date the eggs were laid instead of the date we decided before the first clutch the female was ready. My opinion was that the time would be the same for each clutch and it was just when we started counting that changed. Stupid people and all that.

so what's the reason you see??

later Jason

Healthy, viable sperm. She was all ready and he finally gave her the real goods.
Todd Hughes

my corn lays her eggs spot on at 5 weeks and 1 day after copulation every year. heres the tricky part, i note every introduction and every witnessed copulation as well as any evidence of copulation. the first introduction almost never is the one that fertilizes, i know this from reviewing all past records. fertilization almost never happens when i think it should but normally a bit after. to better explain my findings i look at past years and look at when she laid her eggs, then i go back and look at when i first intro them together, and every intro following, then i look at what time frames are similiar and then look at what evidence their was of copulation during the similiar intros.
all my data proves is when looking back at it that she deposits her eggs after the same amount of gestaition time. it still doesnt show when she is ready to ovulate due to the fact that their is a 3 month time frame that she has previosly layed eggs i.e. one year in june, next april, next may, this year will be april there is a few missing but you get the idea hope it helps
adam
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

.
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons