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PLEASE help if you can ...E. King's Lump

mattcbiker Mar 21, 2006 07:13 PM

Brief history, she is 8 years old, and this lump started as a very small swelling on her side about 3 weeks ago that I thought was just some built up food, as she was eating 2-3 small-medium rats a week. She bred a couple weeks ago, and I'm quite positive she's also swelling up with eggs now as well. But as you will see, this lump is very unusual, and has grown since I first barely noticed it. It really grew over the last 10 days that I was gone...

First pic is her today, tough to see the lump. then some closeups.

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Matt from Minnesota

Replies (19)

mattcbiker Mar 21, 2006 07:15 PM

It's just over halfway down her body... I want to hear all I can before I bring her to a vet... anyone have a clue how much this vet visit will cost me? I'm a poor student!

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Matt from Minnesota

fighterpilot Mar 21, 2006 07:30 PM

im not an expert or anything but to me it looks like an egg or a fatty deposit.

mattcbiker Mar 21, 2006 07:39 PM

I'll mention that to the vet, but I think it's something else.
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Matt from Minnesota

crodgers Jun 12, 2006 08:05 AM

It's not a fatty deposit or egg. Bite the bullet and take it to a vet. There is something wrong there. Fatty deposits look like fat people (more than just one BIG lump). Thanks for taking the time to post a pic with your concern. Hope all gets well.

ZFelicien Mar 21, 2006 07:49 PM

I'm a college student myself, and I had an experience going to the vet for a very nice Hypo Honduran male last summer... he had a lump in his abdominal region that came outta no where, he stopped feeding then the lump surfaced.

I don't think many people in NYC take the time out to bring their snakes to the vet so the vet wasn't experienced in my opinion!

the visit was cheap $40 I think... but $40 for the guy to run his finger up and down my snake's body???

then he said he needed x-rays $90 each for 2 X-rays ($180)... still told me he had no clue what the lumps were with the X-rays

so he said he had to go in (surgery)... $250, I brought the snake in the Saturday morning... only for them to tell me come pick him up cuz there was no AC so he couldn't do the procedure? strangely my snake died that very same day when I got home... I don't know if something was done to the snake while still at the Vet or if the hott summer weather had something to do with it?

the point of all this is try to find a vet that is experienced with reptiles (esp snakes in this case)

$40 each visit
$180 X-rays
$250 Surgery
Still losing the snake: "PRICELESS!" (and not in the good way!)

I miss this lil guy!

~ZF

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Royal Blue ReptileZ

Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

mattcbiker Mar 21, 2006 07:57 PM

and thanks for sharing your experience, and sorry you lost that handsome guy. So do you think this is just an egg that's being pushed way out to the side? It is difficult for me to tell by feel, and she (the king) is acting really weird - musking for the first time in years and being super jumpy, but she was also a little restless last year when she was pregnant.

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Matt from Minnesota

ZFelicien Mar 21, 2006 08:07 PM

the lump does not look like and egg IMO... 6ut it really doesn't seem like something that'll effect the snake's health?

i say go check in out either way!

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ

Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

kingsnaken Mar 21, 2006 08:24 PM

Z, I can't believe they couldn't see anything in the xray. That Vet was really inexperienced. I've heard of taking a watch apart to see what makes it tick, but not a living animal. That Vet was crazy. By the way. I love hondos, and that is a nice one. Sorry it didn't go well. Derek

ZFelicien Mar 21, 2006 08:49 PM

Thanx... he was a killer snake and i know he'd-of been a killer adult! he was orange and purple with nice ruby eyes... "so is life"

~ZF

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Royal Blue ReptileZ

Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

sc_shark Mar 21, 2006 10:34 PM

That lump definately looks unusual - impacted egg or food item? Cancerous growth? Whatever it is, it can't be good.

You're gonna shell out at least a couple hundred bucks at the vet for xrays removal, I'm sure. I guess the real question is: can you afford it, and is your snake worth it to you?

Make sure the vet you visit has experience with reptiles! Call around if you can, otherwise you might shell out dough AND lose your snake to someone who doesn't know what they are doing! I would also recommend a Google search for reptile vet lists and try to find a good one in your area.

How old is your snake, by the way?

Good luck!
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- Andy
ToothAndScale.com - herp and underwater photography

1.0 Sandfire x Yellow Bearded Dragon
0.1 Albino Black Ratsnake
0.1 California Mountain Kingsnake

mattcbiker Mar 21, 2006 11:30 PM

Thanks for the reply, and she is 8 years old. Besides being pregnant, she isn't acting any differently. She has been on the heat pad almost all the time the last couple weeks, which is unusual for her, she's staying very warm. Will update when things change.
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Matt from Minnesota

Keith Hillson Mar 21, 2006 11:08 PM

Matt

Weird ! Could be anything but it sure doesnt look like an egg or a fatty deposit. Maybe its a hernia or possibly an infection ? Was the male biting her when breeding ? Sometimes those males will latch on anywhere at first before they settle on biting the neck area. Hopefully your vet will be well versed in Herps !

Keith
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mattcbiker Mar 21, 2006 11:28 PM

Thanks... Otis only bit her on her neck, but there was some wrestling around that got a bit rough. She was my garbage dump the last month, so maybe there is a food issue. I am going to try putting her in the tub with luke warm water for a couple hours. See if any improvement occurs...

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Matt from Minnesota

MikeRusso Mar 22, 2006 06:21 AM

I agree with Keith, I don't know what the bump is but i do not think that it is an egg or a fatty deposit. fatty deposits usually grow more slowly over time and eggs don't usually form between the skin and muscle.. My best guess would be an infection or some type of cancer that might have been sped up by her being gravid..

Of course this is just a guess, i have a couple of books on reptile diseases, i will look through them tonight & see if i can find anything that resembles that bump..

i really hope it works out for you and the animal. Please keep us posted, i am very interested to know what that is.

~ Mike

mattcbiker Mar 22, 2006 02:55 PM

Thanks Mike,

I emailed you as well. What I am going to do is wait until she lays her eggs in a couple weeks and see if it passes. Unless I notice this lump change drastically, I'm going to see if laying the eggs solves this. Thanks!

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Matt from Minnesota

MikeRusso Mar 22, 2006 07:46 PM

The best i could come up with is it may be an abscess.. If you read below it states that it can be agrivated in times of stress.. breeding for examle..

I found the following info that may help.. ~ Mike

What is an abscess?
Abscesses are localized infections that generally occur in conjunction with systemic infections. The site may swell noticeably, or the abscess may reside well into the underlying tissue with little change in the skin above. there may be slight swelling which begins to ooze a yellowish liquid which may form a crust. As the skin stretches over the underlying swelling, the scales are moved farther apart and the skin in between may be seen. The skin may be reddish with petechia (burst capillaries) or crusty with dried serous fluid.

Why do abscesses form?
Generally speaking, bacteria that gets into a wound, say a minor scratch or puncture wound, from claws. The body's immune system is unable to successfully fight the invader off, and so the wound becomes infected, forming an abscess.

In healthy animals, the immune system marshals a defense and kills the bacteria before it can cause a problem, forming antibodies to recognize and fight it again.

A stressed animal has a weakened immune system. As it cannot as effectively fight off infections, some microorganisms will manage to proliferate to the point of causing illness. (This can happen to the normal load of gut microorganisms, which is how healthy reptiles end up needing to be treated for excessive loads of worms or protozoans.)

Captivity itself causes stress, no matter how perfect the captive environment and apparently well-adjusted the captive animal. Changes in the daily routine, introduction of a new household member or pet, moving to a new location, seasonal changes such as breeding season, etc., can affect the reptile's stress levels. Stress-related problems may follow relatively quickly, or may not manifest until weeks or months after the start of the stress period or stress event.

Stresses can include emotional stress such as being moved to a new enclosure, having the entire enclosure moved, changing owners, too cold, poor diet, breeding season, etc.

Treating Abscesses
Abscesses that occur in fleshy tissue can be lanced with a scalpel, the caseous pus removed using dental or bone curettes and swabs, and then flushed with an irrigation solution, such as 1% chlorhexidine diacetate (Nolvasan).

Even if all the caseous pus is removed from the site, and the site is kept open and irrigated daily and treated with systemic and topical antibiotics, more pus may form at the site, sometimes within a couple of days of the initial treatment. While this can happen even when the reptile is being given systemic antibiotics, it is more likely to occur when only topical antibiotics are given.

Failure to start antibiotic treatment may result in a worse infection if the site is not cleaned out thoroughly. Even when on antibiotics, particularly resistant infections may cause repeat abscesses to grow. This is because, even though the antibiotics used first are broad-spectrum (effective against a wide range of bacteria), the bacteria causing the infection may not be responsive to that particular antibiotic.

Jeff Hardwick Mar 22, 2006 08:15 PM

Definitely not a fat deposit, more likely a leak in the stomach or intestinal wall and an abcess has since formed. The irritability likely has something to do with pain along with gravid itch (bad behavior).
Regardless, a vet can aspirate and x ray and reccomend a course of treatment.
I've used Cedar Lake Clinic on Cedar Ave for my snakes for years and found them to be unGodly expensive but extremely well versed with reptiles, especially snakes.
Good luck Matt, great snake! Jeff

mattcbiker Mar 22, 2006 08:41 PM

Mike - thanks for transferring all of that information unto here... a BIG help. An absess sure seems to closley detail what this could be. I had thought about giving her a very small poke or incision to see if puss or blood came out... but will probably just hold off and bring her to a good vet.

Thanks again guys!!

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Matt from Minnesota

Rivets55 Mar 31, 2006 08:12 PM

Matt,

I had a simillar problem with a female ball python that developed an abscess on her nose. It swelled up quite a bit, and looked really uncomfortable. She was sensitive and "guarded", but did not go off-feed. I was fortunate in that my vet had "exotic" training (UT grad), and was experienced with reptiles.

The treatment involved a course of injected antibiotics as well as minor surgery. The vet actually had me to assist in restraining the snake while he removed impacted material from the abcsess. He showed me how to give the injections, and me and my wife performed this task without a hitch.

The vet explained that abcesses in snakes can become impacted - that is, instead of liquid pus, they form a kind of fibrous material that surrounds the infection. This had to be removed so that the normal healing process could proceed. As I recall, it took about 3 visits to remove the impacted material, and about 2 months for the abscess to heal. The incision was between the upper nasal plates, and after a few sheds was completely invisible.

You should make an effort to find a local vet who works with exotics - sometimes they will advertise this specialty in the phone book - who can treat your snake appropriately.

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND you DO NOT WAIT until after oviposition to have her looked at - abcsesses can definitely kill an otherwise healthy snake. With your female being gravid, she will be especially vulnerable to complications since so much of her metabolism is geared to making eggs.

PLEASE get her looked at ASAP - you stand to lose her (not to mention the eggs) if you do not act quickly.

Good Luck,
John D
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1.1 Creamsicle Cornsakes
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake

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