Reptile & Amphibian Forums

That is, why the second clutch is faster than the first. Seems you may have had a life in the last couple days and got out of your house into the wilds. Or you were just busy. But I was wondering just what you brought up in the thread below and that thread seems to have gotten buried. Soo...

Impart your view on this subject if you will sir

Why is the second clutch faster??

Thanks Jason

I was out in the field, and I went to a birthday party. And I worked. WORK, is that a life?

Its simple. later in the year is warmer, allowing a few more degrees to choose from. Then as it gets later into summer, itget too hot and reproduction stops.

Consider, snakes in the field are not restricted to low temps. They normally have a wide range of choices, EVEN in MI. So relating captive controlled clutches to wild, non controlled(by us) is not an accurate thing to do. For wild snakes, the choices also include cooler temps. They seek the temperatures they need/require.

As you may guess, I have been pushing choices for a reason, they spend their entire lifes making these choices. They do so for a reason. As in, thats what they do and what they are. They require low temps and high temps to accomplish certain metabolic processes. They do not make a choice to say at one temp or narrow band of temps(because its handy for the keeper)

What is so odd to me is, many people read a caresheet then keep them in a narrow set of conditions, and without hestitation say, that is what they are. Hmmmmmmmmmm? Doing that may "work" whatever that means, but it surely is not what they are. Cheers

How do you know that fertilization is right around the time of the pre lay shed?? Have a 100 snakes given their life to science to show this or is this a assumption? Not that I am doubting you but I like to know the source of the info I consider. Also if this was a dissection proven thing I would assume it was WC snakes, since science sees the CB animals as dead, so does this info translate to captivity? Since we control the habitat, or lack there of, can it compare??

Thanks Jason

Actually, try taking a direction and sticking with it. Yes, I have cut open hundreds of eggs of many kinds, snakes, lizards, torts, birds, etc. I have also cut open gravid females, alive and dead. Captive and roadkilled.

The oppertunities present themselves over time. And forty years of hatching eggs is a lot of time. So yes, its partly from cutting open captive eggs(I would never steal and cut open wild eggs)(we all have our weirdnesses)

Also I mentioned that I had a line of kings many years ago(early 70's) that laid uncalicfied eggs and they developed and hatched normally. It was a great education to watch eggs develop. I had also attempted to cut windows(hotglue glass) on normal eggs, so I can watch them develop. This did not work well, for me. Some developed for a while, but all died before hatching. So I stopped that practice. Remember I had eggs I could see in, so it was not so important.

What I believe is the serious point here is, you(not you in particular) fellas seem to want to know stuff, but you refuse to actually take steps to learn it. You feel its much easier to ask someone else. Or read a care sheet(I hate caresheets) Its kinda like painting and calling it art, but you did one of those paint by the numbers. Or buying a model car, and putting it together(followed instructions) then said, look what I built(you actually assembled it, not built it) One of my snake friends, recently got into painting, art has eluded him(so far) hahahahahahahaha Not all painting is art(theres also a range)

Animals, have potential, that is a range of things. A potential includes failure to extreme success. They can grow fast or slow or not at all, they can grow large or not. They can produce or not. They can do it quickly and efficently or not. They can do it repeatedly or not. And, they can live a long time, or not. All of that is normal and natural.

So to compare whats happening in captivity sounds funny to me. As you recieved all sorts of different times from copulation to ovi-deposition, as in, a range. So which one of these times is to be considered normal for captivity or better yet, whos captivity? If I knew which time to pick, I may be able to compare it to nature.

So yes, if a captive experience is successful, you may compare it to a wild event with the same success. But only consider it part of the potential or range of success.

To consider what you do, as normal for wild reptiles is very very odd, as in very very egotistical(in a human sense, not individual sense) As its so very simple to see that wild reptiles have a billion options compared to captivitys tiny little choice or lack thereof.

If someone like you forces me to think about what people do with their captives. The why keeps coming up. It makes me crazy. I keep coming back to some silly human needs. Humans somehow think they HAVE to control. They "have" to be in control. Then somehow relate that control with their subjects. All to confusing.

The key here is, I suggest allowing or supporting snakes to make their own decisions(a good way to learn about potential). But most fight that, tooth and claw, as they cannot give up control. For them I must remind them that these very snakes have been living a breeding since before man was a tiny primate. Or on another planet. I must remind them that snakes are living and breeding as we speak, in nature, by the thousands upon thousands. Without your help and control.

So I say, get over it, these snakes have been bred in captivity for decades(four by me) its not new, its not special(anymore) Its what they do, its a minimum for exsistance. How about exploring the rest, all that distance between the minimum and the maximum. (the range or potential) To explore is to actually do it, not ask about doing it. Cheers

have hundreds of snakes at our disposal to experiment with dozens of different environmental conditions. And the vast majority of us cannot walk out into our backyards and observe what our snakes are doing in the wild.

You were a pioneer and were forced to learn the hard way because there was no other way. I ask you, why should I sacrifice good eggs in my small collection when there are others like you who, if they were willing, could teach me about their experiences? (Instead of just acusing people of taking the easy way out and painting by numbers maybe offer to teach them how to paint)

Don't get me wrong, the trial and error is part of the allure to keeping snakes, and learning something fundamentally from scratch is a fantastic experience, but not everything has to be that way.

Every time I read your posts you hint at things which bring up thousands more questions then they answer (a trademark of good science). How about using these forums to tell us about it. Personally, I would love to here anything you have to say about snakes. I'm just not interested in hearing about what a bad job the amature herpers on this forum are doing.

Maybe I have a hard time here because you do not understand what choices or options means. Its basically something to choose from, instead of one thing, there are more then one thing.

This applies to you to. You do not have to do anything, cut open eggs, go in the bush, or even keep snakes. Its your choice. You can pick or not.

No offense, but your limitations are happily yours and not mine.

All in all, what you can do or want to do, is not even part of this thread. Its merely your limitations. Cheers

this post had to do with ovulation times and double clutching. A herper was trying to enhance their knowledge of their snakes reproductive cycles. Since you were the one who originally posed this question how about trying to help him answer it instead of going off on a tangent about how all of us snake keepers impose all of these resrictions on our snakes lives. While it is a valid point, which you bring up in almost every thread, it has little to do with the original question. I could take a stab at answering the post but I don't like spitting out info that I am not possitive about. SO, why is the second clutch faster?

That was the answer. People keep them at different temps and get different times. That was explained.

Jason, mentioned he was told certain times, and in his experience he saw other times. Again, different conditions allow different results. Its very simple you know.

Then in his last paragraph, he asked, can this compare to nature. I then explained, nature does not have the narrow band of temps that many in captivity choose to allow.

To sum it up, I mentioned that captive results could be compared, but as only a part of the potential that natural snakes can express. Get it now, Or would you rather I be a meanie? I guess in psycho babble, your feeling guilty because you know you could offer more. So instead of blaming yourself, you want to blame me. Sorry for that. But only you keep your snakes. I have no part of it. Only you are to blame, right wrong or indifferent. What I say means nothing, unless it strikes a cord. Of course, how could it not strike a cord. A wild animal in a little box. It has too, yes?

If your happy with how you keep them, then there is no problem if I say the moon is blue. Cheers

Have you ever observed a wild egg-laying snake to have 2 clutches in one year?

I mean a wild egg layer in the wild, not a wild caught one in captivity.

First, science is like a our court system. Different judges will throw you in jail for different degrees of evidence. Its not the evidence, its about the judge and how evidence is presented. "If it don't fit, you must acquit".

So the easy part first, yes, many of us have caught wildcaught gravid females then have them double clutch. Which is leading soft evidence. Yes wild snakes can indeed multiclutch without captive intervention, other then food. That is, you can catch one in the spring and have it double clutch without another temperature manipulation.

Next, have I seen naturally occuring females multiclutch. Yes, and no. hahahahahahaha why there are judges. None that were captured and marked. But many that were observed, without intervention. It seems mucking with them, effects them the same way as mucking with captives. As in, not a good thing.

What this means is, for pure science(those who want to deny snakes do this) There is no exact DNA identification. But there are fingerprints. That is, the same color and pattern characteristics. That is, I have watched a female pyro become gravid several times in a year. But "could" it been several pyros? not in my mind, as no two pyros have the same markings. And more important, no two in the group I was watching. So this evidence is conclusive to me, but not to someone with no real experience. To some biologist, who has no idea what a pyro is, to the uneducated, all pyros look alike. I guess there could have been twins, it does happen(I must be really lucky, to have it happen over and over)

I often mention this to HKM while in the field. They(the teachers of biology) should not allow students in the field until they learn that no two snakes are alike. All have unique markings, builds, etc. They must learn to be able to recognize individuals. Unfortunately, some have a hard time with species, muchless individuals. So instead, they are trained to us, invasive techniques like radios, pittags, scale clipping, toe clipping, spools, etc. I am not saying they should not use these tools, but I am saying they need to have an understanding to the level of being able to recognize one from the other. If they cannot, it simply means, they are not looking hard enough. Or simply put, they are dumb as a stone. In any case, these are not the people you want taking data.

Also, and while weaker evidence, we see snakes of many species gravid over long periods of the year. We also see neonate blooms over long periods of the year.

Lets use gophersnakes. We can find them gravid in April, may, june, july, and august. Who is to say they only had one clutch. And why the heck wouldn't they have more then one clutch, they surely do in captivity, in spite of the narrow range of choices we give them. Even funnier is, in the later months, the gravid females get skinnier and skinner. Just like there captive relatives. Normally in good conditions, the first clutch does not take any toll. As in, you cannot even tell they laid. With natural supported snakes. Later in the year they start to look like captives, ahhahahahahahahahahaha lack of support.

One of the problems is, somehow, and I have no idea where this comes from. People think snakes cannot or have a hard time finding food. To me this is strange and odd. They always say, in captivity, they have all the food they want(which is normally bullbeans)

As a kid, I remember reading about a bull snake that was killed in a farmers field. It contained 97 mice. hahahahahahahahaha I never heard of any keeper feeding 97 mice in a single feeding. Also you see pics of wild snakes eating such large food items, they look like they are going to explode. You never see that in captivity. That one feeding weighs more then a normal captive years of food. In captivity they would indeed puke it up. Why? to narrow of temps to digest such a thing.

Also the vast majority of stable snakes I find, are super healthy, compared to their captive relatives. So whats that deal all about? Why would you think they perform less, when they look better? Why would they appear healthier and cannot find food? Why would they produce less and have wider choices? common sense says, people are dumb as a stone about snakes. Cheers

Thank you very much Frank. That is fascinating stuff. I am suprised, but only somewhat about pyros double clutching in the wild. I have seen lizard blooms twice and possibly three times in the same year.
Interesting thing you said about how some people think snakes have a hard time finding enough food. I think you might agree that some do, transients and weaker ones that may eventually die. But I was thinking about this last year when I was turning rocks for zonata. At some prime outcrops early in the year I was finding literally dozens of sceloperous under the fringe rocks of big domes. Under the larger slab rocks there was a few zonatas. At dusk it was chilly but the zonatas were very alert in thier crevices. The lizards were slow and easy to catch, you could turn a rock and they would just sit there. Something I will have to do sometime is just sit at one of these domes until after dark. My theory is that the zonata can function at lower temps than the scelops allowing them to come out and basicly just pick off the cold lizards one by one until they are full. The only limitation would be lizards in places too small for the zonata to fit. And of course the "smarter" lizards that hide in better spots.
And yes, I too have found gophers, zonatas and even nightsnakes with absolutely huge meals in them. The nightsnakes on FM170 in Texas are sometimes laying in the road with bulges in them big enough to be small adult mice but I think they are earless lizards which also bask on the road at night. Although I never made one barf just to find out.

Right Frank. breeding schmeeding. In contrast to areas of information we lack, we have tremendous info on reproduction both in and out of captivity. (AND I breed stuff so don't go all goofy on me for saying that.).

Jason, There are many published studies on many wild species that show reproductive cycles. A shortcoming of such studies is that they often summarily make sweeping conclusions for entire species instead of limiting the conclusions to what was going on with the specific individuals studied of that specific population for that given time period. Inferring otherwise is, well, inferring....

Frank and I regularly discuss published literature during our old man fun in the sun day forays. I submit that most folks read scientific literature by skimming the abstract and going directly to the conclusion section. I say STUDY the methods sections first. A study will only stand up as well as the methodology employed. Next examine the results section. If the author and editors did their jobs, the results should be irrefutable. Use your brain to draw your own conclusions from these two sections! Then if still interested, see how your thoughts compared to the authors. Remember, it’s in the conclusions sections that all hell can break loose!!!

Read Frank’s last paragraph again: “So I say, get over it, these snakes have been bred in captivity for decades (four by me) its not new, its not special (anymore). Its what they do, its a minimum for existence. How about exploring the rest, all that distance between the minimum and the maximum. (the range or potential) To explore is to actually do it, not ask about doing it. Cheers”

How about that “distance between?” Do snakes teach their young? Do snakes live in well-established family groups that know each other like other social beasts? Do snakes speak to one another? This is where my senile brain dwells…. Remember, it is not enough to have an open mind to all possibilities; you have to apply it, and think for yourself. Hugh

I am always blown away when Hugh pops in and backs up Frank's statements, not because they are buds but because they are colleagues as well. I go back to the threads when Hugh puts in his .02 and have seen both mention that while they agree on most things they question each other and keep the fluids brewing. I think you have been given as much the answers to your questions as you are likely to get and you should thank these guys for letting you in as much as they have. How would you like it if you did all the work for years and then someone takes your notes and repeats only the successful parts of your work. Are you learning anything? You are not using your full potential. I am often wrong and learn from the mistakes. If not, I am doomed to failure. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results. I think this is what they want you guys to get, try different things and record your results and test things. To have someone tell you the answer isn't learning. Not meaning to ruffle feathers but I like Frank's style...he isn't raising your snakes so he doesn't care if you do it right or wrong, as there are many degrees of both. If you give the snakes choices; temps, substrates, prey items, the list goes on and on, they will do what they do better and better, or worse and aorse and you will learn. Again, just my .02 and I am trying several different things this year in offering choices.
Todd Hughes

Um yeah Thanks Todd. That make it all clear.

We both realize we are human and we do like all other humans. We tend to follow patterns, both physically and mentally. So we try to check ourselves and eachother. Like bounce things off eachother, even if its not something we believe or think. Just bounce things around.

We let eachother follow some train of thought, no matter how odd it seems. Again, just to see what happens. All and all we still get stuck.

We also realize, there is no right or wrong. Its a string of rights and wrongs that make up progress, we are only looking for progress. Cheers

Hugh I understand where you are coming from but I am not satisfied with my level of knowledge of the breeding process. Not that I have problems getting eggs. That as you say is simple. I am just interested in the process itself and the steps involved that we don't hear much about. The timing is also very interesting to me.

As far as your other questions about social groups. I got no idea.

Later Jason

From reading your posts Jason, I feel it won't be long until you find answers to your questions. I mean no belittlement or am in no way condescending to you in my comparative lack of interest in breeding. It is, after all, a very essential item on the menu of life. Breeding is a byproduct of successful living. I am more interested in what costitutes successful living, particularly from a social standpoint. Whatever answers you seek with snakes, I will venture to say that they won't be simple and consistent. Many researchers stop at first base thinking they hit THE homerun. When I feel like I hit a homerun, I force myself to step back and look at it another way, and try to prove myself wrong. If that fails, I go over to Frank's....

Good luck with your interest and remain skeptical of everything you hear, read, and see. Feed your curiosity well.

HAHAHAHA! That's what I thought! Hugh, you are on to a lot of triples, that's for sure. I always knew the snakes were more intelligent than others knew. I know my grooup of indigos live in social groups and even claim territory across a creek, yet share the same food supply. I have seen pairs, single adults of both sexes, subadults and yearlings in the group in this favorable outcrop. They don't dispurse, as in other places, they are there all year long, but each individual does different things, so they are not all visible at the same time, but their sheds tell me they are there, not elsewhere. HMMMMM! Yep, snakes are cool and if I was a betting man I would put some money on Hugh and Frank to win the World Series, LOL! At least hit a few outta th' park! Hey where's your pics?
Todd Hughes

Where are my pics? Damn good question. I gotta learn how to post them on these forums one of these days.

Fascinating about your indigo snakes. Another species checks in.
Good for you for "seeing" what was taking place in front of you. Sometimes I have had to wait years wading through a bunch of observations before I realized what I was seeing. I kick myself for not realizing it sooner, and then immediately try to prove it otherwise. No wonder I never get anything done!

I'd like to hear more about those indigo observations, but this is probably the wrong forum. Great stuff. Thanks.

Frank I am trying to expand my understanding of what is going on in my collection as well as what could be going on if I did things better. So my question was one in which I was trying to determine where the info you were providing came from.

Only a idiot takes one piece of information and uses that info without considering the source. This is where I have a huge problem with most people and the things they like to quote. Wether from books or articles or something they heard. A fact is only a fact if you can prove it.

So I am not questioning you, but rather I am questioning the source of the info. How it was obtained and when. Both of us know I like to question. Not because I don't believe what you are saying but because I can't without more info. If I do then that is a fault of mine.

I get your point of "find out for myself what is going on with my snakes". The reason I am asking is that I see things that go against what I have read in my collection. So I need to explore why. Understanding the process of something as simple as breeding is imperative. Yes I know to put the snakes together and then do what I can to hatch the eggs. I am just trying to figure out what is going on between the time I put the snakes together and get eggs. Most hobbiest don't care. Why should they? They get the eggs.

I ask the forum as a whole for their experiences with breeding but no one really responded so I ask one of the people who did (you) about their experience. I have many angles that I am curious about but at this time of the year many like to talk about breeding. So for now I am on this question, next will be why my snakes that are near drafty windows are as close to the cold part of their cage instead of the heat one day after feeding? But that is another topic.

I appreciate your time on this subject because not many have hatched out as many snakes as you on here. Hopefully some people will read the thread and get as much from it as I did. I just find the even the most basic part of this hobby can have many questions left un asked.

thanks Jason

"So for now I am on this question, next will be why my snakes that are near drafty windows are as close to the cold part of their cage instead of the heat one day after feeding? But that is another topic."

Is it about heat, humidity, or something else???

I have found snakes feeding on cloudy days in the 40's. More than one species too, and more than a few times. Maybe they like it cold?? hmmmmmmmm?? Are these snakes living "outside of the box?"