Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, I am going to make this short b/c I hit 2 keys at the same time when writing the last one and erased it all and sent me through to some other site. So here is the post. I have been trying to get my monitor to become parasite free and am in the process now. I asked a question back a few which stated that the monitors could get parasites from the food they ate and if I were to go to the pet store and fed a freshly killed/live mouse it could be contradictive to my progress. BRG said this as these are his exact words........

""""I don't see the point of feeding live rodents, my monitor would much rather NOT have to work hard for a meal. Also mice are about .50 cent(not the rapper) online. Live mice is a crap shoot, most don't have worms but why take the chance.Medicine is hard on the monitor's system."Deader is better" to steal someone's(mice on ice) slogan.""""

I know that through observing my monitor and from what I have heard that meds are hard on the system and to avoid treating if possible. Once clean, try to keep them that way to avoid stress all over again.
Ok here is why I asked how you do it and not have problems. I saw a picture of your (F) Finschi monitor in the photo gallery of a mouse on the head of the lizard. I have nothing against this. To me it showed that it was feeding time. But the thing that I thought of was that it was live. This means that it will be eaten whole with everything on and in it. This is confusing. You have a monitor that is not common in the least bit and have no fear in it obtaining parasites. It would seem to most that if you are one of the few that have a rare lizard or whatever that you would take extra precautions to prevent "stress" on the animal whether it be from parasites or treating them with the troubling meds to anything else such as environmental conditions. Here is what I came up with as I have been trying to figure this one out for several days now. You MUST be doing a study, right? This is what I have deduced from the matter. You must have a study group to see if the tests you have are factual. Next you have an experimental group and your control group. In this case the control group would be varied as it would go through numerous amounts of meds along with different versions to see which is the most effective. Following this you must figure out what lengths of time would the medication be "risky" for the monitor to consume with out being "treated" itself which brings even higher risks as toxicity in a rare creature could be detrimental and ruin the entire experiment and then you would lose and start from scratch again. For example, parasite free monitor (could take weeks and weeks) and parasite free and ridden rodents and then to start the experiment again with the treating procedures. Then the mouse in the picture was actually a mouse that was treated and given enough of a grace period to be assured that it will not spread parasites or meds to your monitor to ensure the greatest health for your pet. So my question is how are you setting up your experiment? I would really like to know as I plan to be working on something like that very soon and maybe you could shed some light this way as far as what meds you use etc. If you are not doing any sort of experiment, what is your secret? If you were some novice who got a monitor I would understand the action of throwing a mouse that was live and could injure your rare Finschi pet or give it parasites simply because you didn't care or simply didn't have enough experience to know better. But you on the other hand have enough interaction and knowledge to know what could happen. So that leads me to believe you have some sort of experiment going on. That would be weird and pointless if you just threw a mouse in on its head to take a picture for kicks and giggles. You know what I mean? So it comes down to a few things as you have the knowledge to care for these guys properly. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but fail to realize how close their methods actually are. So, back to the few things of what is going on. (1) You have a secret experiment going on with the treatment of parasites in large groups and grace periods to allow your pet to eat without complications from meds being passed (2) You figure only when the animal is starting to go downhill is when you treat it as they live in the wild with parasites. Which I think you would avoid as you have a uncommon lizard and would want the best for it as it would be more difficult to find another healthy specimen if the stress from meds or parasites killed it (3) I have no 3. As it can't be anything else, I don't think you would do something like that for kicks and giggles as you have had monitors and that would be, well, pointless. (4) Know something the rest of us don't which may run concurrent with 1, sort of so we could call, (4), (1a.(Experimental secret pt.2)).

So what is it, as I am totally stumped?
Sorry for it being so long but had to get the entire picture to be transparent.

Anyways,
Thanks

Seriously.

Parasites are a concern if your husbandry sucks.

.. or the animal went through some recent trauma, like importation. Or your husbandry sucking.
I'll let Christine handle any further hallucigenic ramblings by you, but I'm pretty sure she'll tell you the same thing. Thanks for the amusing post.
D.

I am not sure what part you think is amusing, the whole thing maybe, but as far as the experiment thing goes a small group getting their masters and I are going to experiment on it just to see what effects it may have. Yeah, maybe for kicks and giggles. Anyways. I agree to a certian degree on "if your husbandry sucks or recent trauma like importation" that it'll have an effect. Then please explain this. Then if many thought like that then what would be the point. For example someone reputable like Pro Exotics. They breed and sell captive bred animals in suiteable environmental conditions and they are obviously NOT imports. Answer this, why do they even bother treating their animals along with other procedures? Regardless if its a baby or an adult?
To end this, no, my husbandry doesn't "suck" In fact I think it is rather nice. For the record, day time temps= 126 basking temp and 82 ambient; evening temps=117 basking spot 80 ambient, respectively.
That's all.

Getting their master's in what? Who cares, anyone can go to school and still be an idiot. I could apply to Oxford and get accepted, I have no desire.

Secondly, temps are one part of overall husbandry.

Thirdly, Pro Exotics does not mostly breed but mostly imports.

Fourth, if you had a brain you would know that monitors don't get parasites (or have problems with them) from what we feed them.

Again, this all goes back to they "why are you posting?" question.

Is it to be beneficial or just to ramble?

andrew
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Varanus Creations

that is news to me.

You should ask Robyn exactly what they do. They may very well try to breed a lot of monitors, but they don't breed enough to make the business enough profit, so they import. they also buy a lot of the captive bred monitors they sell.

they import waters, blackthroats, ball pythons, peachies, dumerils, etc, etc, etc in large numbers.

that is not to say they probably don't do a good job. i'm sure they do.

cheers, andrew
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Varanus Creations

So this shouldn't take more than a minute or two for you. But you might learn something here. To others that read this I feel it is justified. Just for the record it is directed towards Mr. Andrew (with an outrageous knowledge base beyond that of others). Thanks for your time.

I wrote this already and it was pretty good. But it took so long to write that it erased it when I pressed the post button but that's fine as I am patient and my momentum is still going strong. Ok. Let me take a breath. Here we go. I hope you read this. I mean read it to understand it and not just to read because I get the impression you are doing the latter my intelligent friend.

You asked! So here you go. What are they getting their masters in? One of them is getting their masters in animal science, another one getting their PhD in animal nutrition, and the other 2 are getting their PhD in animal breeding and reproduction. It is really quite interesting from what I learn from them.

Anyone can go to school and still be an idiot huh. You can go to Oxford, get in, BUT you have no desire. You "might" be able to get in a lot of places(schools) but since you don't want to be classified as an idiot then "you have no desire" to do so. Well, that seems to me like you are in denial. Yes, denial. You behave like someone who is, for example, an alcoholic. "I don't have a drinking problem" they say. Or it could be like a criminal blaming everything else on someone else. " It's not my fault; it is society, or my parents, etc." You on the other hand are a different breed of denial though. You say you could but I have no desire. I don't believe that. If you had the chance to go then you would take it as it is an opportunity to open a myriad of doors career wise. Just like the many professors that teach and students that are finishing, we have heard every excuse in the book. You are coming up with excuses just like the two examples I stated. You follow what I am saying? Yes, you do. Why? Well, the answer is because you are not an idiot. Only people who obtain degrees in higher learning are idiots. And any ideas to be put forth are shot down by the "smart people" like yourself who already know it all. The only idiot is you my friend for denying if you could actually GET in past undergrad. Why don't you just come to terms with reality and say, "Yeah, I was preoccupied with BS and didn't study like I should have and as a result I am denied acceptance to any post-grad options" No, Mr. Denial says I can get in but I didn't want to. Sure you can...Only an idiot like you would deny a chance to excel in their studies, kill any chance at career options, and make less money, and deny it, is a fool. So, don't give me that kind of stuff. I don't buy it. Nor will I ever. If you don't move on to post-grad studies due to your mistakes or inability to handle the load then there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, there is nothing wrong with that at all. At least you can go to bed each night and say to yourself " At least I did the best I possibly could and didn't let temptation get in the way" I don't accept excuses. Maybe that's why I am not doing too badly. I want more, but everyone has limitations. Did you watch the 18yr old girl on CNN whose mother died and had no father around? Well, her mother left her with 2 brothers and a sister to take care of. She desperately didn't want her siblings to be separated into foster homes so she took it on and decided she would have to do what it takes to keep the house, etc. Well, this 18 year old girl is going to college full time, works to pay for the house, the kid’s clothes and food, and covers medical insurances. She even has to get the kid ready for school in the morning which first hand I gave my folks a time as a child. She at 18 eventually finished college in four years to go on to further her education to try to make things easier for her and her family. She made it! She struggled and didn't let excuses get in the way. You have a job; you work at it to finish what you started. Those who work hard and don't quit are not idiots. Those that have gotten that far had to retain information to get where they are and had to use common sense to place priorities on issues. Tell your doctor that he is a fool and that any person could get to where he/she is today. Ok. Here is a challenge for a smart person like yourself. Take physical chem. with Dr. Raff here and get a B. It isn't like the general, organic, biological, or analytical chem. (which I have finished except for Analytical chem.) but I am sure you will do quite well. Ha ha Yeah right. But you may prove me wrong which I seriously doubt, seriously! At least I give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't! You are just outright wrong for what you accuse me and others of who go past our limits. I think you believe you are smarter than you actually are. One of reasons to go further in your studies, be it undergrad or post grad, is to show employers/patients that you are very capable of being trained multiple tasks at high stress levels and will take care of responsibilities with all you have willfully rather than divert attention to nonsense. Life isn't easy for anyone; you just have to tread on. So,

Remember we are the idiots who calculate amounts on prescriptions; we are the idiots who create things like the cell phone, your microwave, plasma televisions, fight crime and injustice through DNA analysis, and even figured out the calculations to create our former twin towers, to say the least although I can go on and on. We are the ones that DON'T sell wolf tickets and say """I could...but I have no desire.""""

Secondly, temps are part of the overall husbandry according to you. Well, you don't say. I already took animal husbandry couple years back and as a matter of fact I can honestly say I aced it (not that it was that bad but wasn't connect the dots either). And if one didn't know reptilian husbandry it would be totally obvious and apparent (generally as it is a start)) if they just looked it up the word husbandry. Duhhh, ok, you are really showing your brilliant side pal. If I were to put my 2ft lizard (total length) in a box 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft and kept it clean and threw it in there it would not do well. Why? Temps. Temps for these animals are one of the most crucial factors when dealing with husbandry problems. If I were to get the temps correct, give fresh water, and fed it then the lizard will undoubtedly grow if parasites are not a major problem. That is why I gave the temps. The size of the enclosure, etc is not as critical as what I had given. If you read the rest of the posts you would have read that I gave all the info regarding size of the enclosure, temps, quarantine cage size, contents in the cage, etc. Giving you your overall husbandry with the exception of exact times of feeding etc, which I believe I gave in a post already posted before this one. Man you really make me wonder a bit. Are you reading any of this? At least the other folks read through the whole thing before throwing insults.

Thirdly, """Pro Exotics does not mostly breed but mostly imports""", you say. OOOOOh. And? Who cares? I really don't care and it has nothing to do with what I had asked, you smart guy you. Read my fingers (as lips don't apply here), this is exactly what I wrote.......""""For example someone reputable like Pro Exotics. They breed and sell captive bred animals in suitable environmental conditions and they are obviously NOT imports. Answer this, why do they even bother treating their animals along with other procedures? Regardless if it’s a baby or an adult?"""" That was the question you fool. Not if they import or export anything. Where in this phrase do you see if I say anything about quantities of animals WC vs. CB? It doesn't. That's what leads me to believe that our smart little friend isn't so smart and just like to ramble himself just to get in on a piece of the action to prove himself important. You were just like festering piranha running in to obtain their mouthful. But I think the mouthful you took was bitter my friend. You just showed that you are not a piranha that you want to appear but a fat little harmless pacu which is commonly mistaken for the piranha. So, you are showing to me that you are much less than you want to appear to be and fool many, just like you did yourself with school.

Fourth, this is your comment buddy """" if you had a brain you would know that monitors don't get parasites (or have problems with them) from what we feed them."""" Well I do have a brain my friend. But anyways, I think you would make a horrible teacher in the classroom. Thank heavens you didn't do what you "could (supposedly)" have done in school with a degree in education as I think you would make things difficult unnecessarily and be just another one of those outlandish professors. People come here to learn and share information that will benefit one another in the hopes that it will help the individual and not hinder the root of the discussion. Yes, I may have written up some irrelevant information (according to some) but I think my point was clear and valid. The question was quite well according to some of the posts I have read over in the past by some folks who knew not a single thing about monitors. What is your secret? Maybe I shouldn't have said that secret comment to good ol' built4spd13. Maybe I should have asked you. How do you learn ANYTHING without anyone informing you? Hey maybe your telepathic and pose a gift that we don't possess. I get it. Maybe that's why you were so confident in saying that you could get in but would be too easy to compete with idiots. I get it now; you know everything already through osmosis and life here on earth is quit a bore. Yeah, if you possess these gifts I think I know what you mean. But since I don't think you are special, well, your special but in terms of a handicap somewhere or another. But oops, you knew I was going to post that so there goes the humor. Ahhhh. Some people sometimes. To let you know, "I asked if my monitor is parasite free, as it is an import, how could I keep it this way and avoid any further infestation. Frozen foods that were thawed was an excellent suggestion. But the next question popped in my head because school teaches you to be analytical which was "What if I feed my monitor something freshly killed. Would it transfer to the monitor re-infecting it resulting in a relapse of the condition it is in now. HMMM, I thought. My vet, who is not a reptile vet (as my rept vet was out of town at the time) didn't know if parasites could be transferred from one host to another. But yeah I know, he's brainless too and should have known as any idiot would know that (your words)""" monitors don't get parasites (or have problems with them) from what we feed them.""" But my reasoning is sufficient. You see you said don't as in it’s a fact. It would have been better to say not normally or under normal circumstances.... But if a monitor swallows a flea that was on a host it will get a tapeworm. So in reality it CAN get a parasite from its food, technically.This puts an end your conclusive fact. I knew this already. Next under normal circumstances they just like many animals live with beneficial parasites. The one that comes to mind first is a termite. As it can't actually digest the cellulose it consumes its "parasites" are beneficial to it therefore living in a symbiotic relationship. But that was not the relationship I was wondering about, I was concerned with the negative species. Next, if you eat sushi, you can get worms! If you eat uncooked pork, you can get worms among other things. Uh, what about malaria. Which is why I believed that harm could be done if eaten live/freshly killed. Then I thought that everyones monitors were parastie free. That is why when I saw the picture of Christines monitor I wondered how she keeps her animals parasite free if she did what she does and was puzzled as they look healthy. Then one thing led to another. Parasites are parasites and don't always have to be seen with the naked eye to be unhealthy. I wanted to prevent the most I could for the sake of my pet. As I didn't want this one to end up like the horrible specimen sent the first time that I had to send back. I wanted to stop anything negative early before it escalated. Any precautions I can take, I will. That's my reasoning. You see my idiotic brain weighs the situation at hand and evaluates both pros and cons. That is why I asked. I still feed it frozen items, thawed of course, but was curious as to what might happen if.....Its the what ifs that I try to figure out and will seek out those who may give me the best answers. I know that through reading I got a few different answers. So I take it and do further research on it because I have something to work with then. Unlike a lot of people that come with questions, I put much thought, time, and effort in finding out the right answer. In this case I didn't want to re-infect and felt that it may trigger a relapse in its progress. So at this point I have come up with a conclusion as to what I am going to do which not one person said to do. They gave suggestions and I have pretty much solved my problems. I am going to feed f/t until his health progresses and after the parasites are gone. Then once at an adequate weight and health move it to the 7ft enclosure (and out of quarantine) and will continue to give f/t but not worry about live/freshly killed rodents at all unless his health decreases. That's it. It wasn't that hard, I just needed a little push to get me out of this mud. GEEES I didn't need rude remarks to help come up with it either. But it didn't stop me either. In fact you were of no help so you should have just kept your nit-picking fingers away from the "reply to this message" hyperlink. The ones that did help and I would like to thank them 100% and in no specific order they were...... -----------mkbay---built4spd13---BRG---bengalensis---rsg---Dragoon(not to pleased with the comments but no big deal)---colby(until he started talking nonsense)

So Mr. Brainiac, I know why you are a jerk, you know it all already and everything bores you when you hear legitimate questions. I can't imagine what a decent question to you sounds like.

So your argument as to why you called me "brainless" was totally unjustified and frankly, dumb.

I thought you were just too smart to make brainless comments for a second, if that. The only reason you called me brainless was because of something I pondered and should have known somehow. That's brainless on your part. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Even myself. Truthfully, I think you are brainless for making the "brainless" comment among other things.....

In any event, hey, thanks for your time and effort Andrew. I hope we can still be, well, friends. LOL

You see Snakey, the difference between folks that speak with experience and are just educated are vast. First of all when you try to sound smart you still sound completely ignorant....

As far as school......Do you know anything about my education? I am graduating magna cum laude in February from a top ten school, I have been accepted to numerous grad schools. But what does it matter? It doesn't, because the real world is what matters.

Lets talk real world for a moment. I am only 25. I supported my mom and raised my brother. I am divorced. I put myself through school. Next....

I actually work with monitors, everyday, you have what? one? and for how long?

I have only been doing it 5 years, but experience is measured in events not time, right? I dig up eggs weekly and my monitors aren't dying or in poor health.

You see, the problem is you come on here and speak pure jibberish. You try to act smart because you think you are, because you are in school. Some of the biggest idiots are sitting in our educational systems and I am honeslty scared for their release.

As far as your experiment goes.....You said you are going to raise the monitor up on f/t, then transfer it out of quarantine then feed it f/t but not worry about the effects of live?
ANYONE, does that make sense?

To be honest, I don't believe you are beyond the age of 15. That is how you act.

These are my thoughts

Maybe its later than I thought.

Why so aPt to create confrontatIon? It appears you are a troll. Well consider yourself a fairly effective lure. You cauGht me. I have some issues with your bantam novella.

I tend to think your thinking is Flawed.

"an idiot like yoU would deny a ChancE to excel in theiR studies, kill any chance at career options, and make less money, and deny it, is a fool."

I had good prospects for grad school, good grades, good connections, and financial aid, even then, I chose to forgo graduate school. I willingly chose to not persue any more studies and I choose not to get fancy initials added to my name.

I decided to do this for many reasons, many of which you will never understand, because you can't. However I will attempt to enlighten you about some minor points.

1. How can you know what to go to grad school for, if you have ZERO practical experience. Do you choose.. go in waste several YEARS of your life, .. if you don't like it.. start over? Or do you force yourself to deal with it.

2. How many people actually use their degrees? Do you KNOW? Go look at job openings, they all want................. (drum roll).... EXPERIENCE!!! Oh wow, in the real world they prefer to hire someone who knows what its like here in REAL LIFE, and can function in the social, and political world of a structured educational facility. Aka they need a good dog that can jump through hoops AND hunt.

3. How many people get tired of the POLITICS of education, the fact that any decent facility isn't really about the education but the MONEY created by the BUSINESS of education?

4. How many people think that LIVING is worth more than education? Personally, I'd rather be with my family and live life. The change to my name probably won't be Doctor(Dr.) anytime soon, but it sure as hell will change to DAD soon. I think thats worth a whole lot more to me personally.

As for the EDJUTIMAKATED being the pillars of the world inventing all these great products.... those people aren't doing it for .. the BENEFITS to society? Its for MONEY. Yay greed.

The truly gifted among us, struggle in structured learning, because it stifles them. They do not allow free thought, or truly revolutionary solutions, except in small doses in grade school, remember being forced to color in the lines, they start early! Many times I have been told a test answer is incorrect in my classes. Only to prove the 'trained professional' was himself incorrect when judging the correctness of my answer. However, I did not give the answer that the institution was looking for. I don't know about you but I'd rather not LIVE like a parrot. Repeating what I've been told over and over.

The truly great minds among us, like Richard Feynman and other nobel prize winners, they don't repeat things. They step outside of normal, everyday thought and blow everyones socks off. So, there are some truly great minds that are educated professionally, but, does their impact come from the information that is already documented, or does it come from original data, and research, or new thought.

Are you one of the gifted that can think for himself, or are you one of the many who can't think independently. I for one think you're a sheep... you go with the flock and you repeat what you're told is true. Have you ever gone out and found out for yourself that what you're being told is true? In your own way?
Think back to a great movie Good Will Hunting. Remember the bar scene? If not go watch it. The guy that is humiliated? Thats you! Do you like apples? How do you like THEM apples.

Maybe someday you can come back and tell me I'm an idiot for skipping the my 'graduate' education, but first you'd better come back with something better than a SUPER long paragraph that no one can respond to. Try to say something other than a direct attack.

Its far more interesting if you have something to contribute to the group as a whole. Until then, most people will simply learn to ignore you.

Oscar

Snakey the monitor man huh. Well, It does have a nice ring to it. But I am far from where I want to be with these guys.

But as for your essay, well said. I agree.

Yes. I'll be the first to admit that I need to do a little more on my part to figure out what this real life thing is all about. Hey, I have to admit you are in the real world and I am going to be where you stand today and it is beneficial to me to listen to those who are already there. I will never understand why you did what you did as far as grad school as you make your decisions in the intrest of yourself. And if you felt that it was the best decision, so be it. Everyone is different and has their own ideas as to what and where they want to be. Even if they have the chance I am gathering. This is new to me. I have never heard anyone say what you and Andrew have said regarding grad or other post grad options. I have always heard from other students that this is what this one is doing or wants to do and so on. I never thought anyone would turn it down. But I am realizing that everyone has their reasons. I appreciate your honesty.

I like how you put that the decent institutions are more business like in their practices and based off of monetary gain. In many ways, life is more important than education to some degree in that life is to short to waste precious time. About you becoming a Dad soon, congrats, as I look forward to the same honor. But I can definatley say not anytime soon.

About all the great products and the people doing it not for the benefits of society but for the greed of money. I don't now about that. I am very sure that there are greedy people out there that are driven for money alone and couldn't care less as to what happens with what they create. But I on the other hand do what I enjoy naturally and money will come along with my hard work. It may not be the deepest pockets around but enough for me to be happy. And I think that is what separates the masses. Everyones level of comfort is different. You may be happy exactly where you are and that's why you made your decision. I am sure that you wouldn't mind more money, as any one wouldn't, but you feel secure and as long as you are happy then that is what matters most to you.

I can say that, no, I am not one of the sheeple. I follow the lines to get where I need to go. But once a substancial amount of information is learned in some areas then I will go and do a little bit of homework on my own. Seriously. I do what I enjoy, for instance racing bikes on the track and on the circuit, not because my friend thinks bike s neat or whatever else. I have ridden for many year and just do it as I really like it. I do clay scultptures for fun and have a few displayed at schools at home (which I have to get some back now that I think of it). I do various drawings with with just about anything. The animals I have always gotten with or without my parents consent since I could get to the store and back on my bicyle. Even before then I would capture all kinds of creatures and keep for a while and then let go. When I was in 5th grade I would go "hunting" for anything I could catch. I brought a rattlesnake that I caught in the canyons of L.A. behind my house, and kept it for 6 months before my mom found it and made me let it go. I actually lured it into a large plastic bottle with a slender stick and capped the bottle and brougth it home. Ilater kept sevral others over time for a short perio just to watch them as they were so interesting to me. I have had other reptiles at that time and had plenty of aquariums so i would put it in there put my lamp up, put a hiding spot, grabbed some sand and plants from the canyon and set the cage up. No problems. All the neighbor kids thought it was great. I always had animal of some sort from fresh water to setting up my own reef tank holding from trigger fish to goatfish. I even got paid to set up and establish reef tanks for folks around the nieghborhood. Even had a ground squirrel that bit the h*** out of me and had to go to the hosptial for shots. Anyways, I am rambling. I could have gone to draw for Warner Bros. but I felt my animal side was far greater and that's why I came to college. To pursue the animal sciences to gain as much knowledge as I possibly could. I still draw as I did before I could write, and still love motorcycles since I sat on the first bike at 8years old. Sheep? Nah. Oscar, I am 6'3 265lbs and have always had football coaches on me all the time. The coaches down here at the university tried to bribe me with better living, grades, and everything else. My Dad and his brothers all played college sports as did my brothers. I could have done it and had tremendous pressure to play but I didn't. And let me tell you family is more likely to influence a person more than anything else. I felt like I would rather adjust my carb on the bike, or put a new ignition system in it, or working down in the motor, draw, sculpt, or keep up with the animals like going to dog shows and trying to win. Also my girl friend is about to graduate from vet school in the next few and she's major help with the critters as well as her own pets. My Dad counldn't understand why I did what I did and chose what I chose. I just knew what I wanted to do. Which then throws me back to you. Hey, maybe you had just one of those feeling like I did when you would rather do something else to pursue that something. And I commend you and Andrew for it.

yes I will check the movie out and see for myself and will let you know. And, no, i won't come back later in life to talk rubbish to you about your decisions. I hear you. I will refrain from writing these long a$$ rambling paragraphs and come with more substance if that's what you want. But I am pretty sure I shouldn't questions for a while as they have already been aswered pretty much. There isn't much else to ask but other than how do I enjoy my monitor onec and for all? Just kidding, i have that covered. Ok, thanks for the information

At least in my field of study(veterinary medicine), it is a requirement to have hands on experience BEFORE you can even apply to vet school. The average amount of hours for acceptance(in addition to the educational requirements), is close to 3000.
I believe this is also true for many other studies when applying for their doctorate programs.

-Not trying to fight, just shed some light.

Peace,

Michelle

You are right to some degree. It all depends on the school and what other things you are involved with. I already have 3 yrs working with a vet.

Your control would be animals that have no treatment, group A would have med A, group B, med B, etc..... Not to mention in order to have a significant sample size you would need to use about 30 animals per group. Then you would need to combine groups of meds based on the finding from the first study. You are talking at least hundreds of animals.
Never, ever, ever, treat an animal for parasites unless it is showing some symptoms, then only under the close supervision of a qualified vet (even an unqualified vet is more capable than most here).
If your monitor suffers more than a scratch from an appropriate sized live feeder, it has other problems and should be seen by a vet.
No, live food will not give your monitor parasites.

Do you agree that parasites can be passed from one host to the other? Also, yes, the experiemnt would be tedious. Yeah, I pretty much meant to make the procedure as clear as you put it but have a zillion things going on in my head at once.
Thanks anyway

Hey Richard, you okay? Nothing serious, I hope.

A brief scare, but turns out I'm no worse off than you.
Thanks for asking.

good to hear.

Well I agree with most of your post. I do think that monitors can get parasites from food. Most likely they will pick something up from the dirt (roundworms). Most animals are immune or become immune to parasites with exceptions. Young animals often get parasites because they have never had to fight them off before, immune compromised animals may be effected as well. Like you said, Don't treat them unless you are sure you know what and why you are treating them for parasites. I would much rather deal with a parasite loaded herp than one treated for parasites. I would say the best treatment is proper husbandry. I would also recommend f/t food. Tapeworms come from fleas, Mice can have fleas. You wont see a tapeworm in the stool, They do not shed only the egg packets are visible around the vent and look like rice. Roundworms are more commonly shed and look like spaghetti. After a de-worming you may see a bunch in the stool if they had a large load. Almost all worming medication has known side effects.

Good point.
I have quite a few monitors and most are wild caught, but I just don't worry about parasites unless they show symptoms.
I bet most, if not all are carrying some sort of parasite (as all organisms do) but they just don't seem to be a problem.
Stress is the #1 killer in my opinion.

I didn't actuaLly think that there was some mysterious secret. Maybe that's why Dragoon thought it was amusing. I couldn't tell you. My whole point was, and maybe should have asked it like this, was isn't a parasite free monitor what most people are trying to shoot for? I remember someone saying they only bring their monitor to the vet every 5 years. So, parasites don't matter. According to Dragoon, only if your husbandry sucks or if you have an import is when you should worm them.

After acclimated or temps are appropriate then you should not have to worm again or treat for other parasites unless it is "dying". Is that the whole idea. Should people not worm their dog until it looks like the worms are affecting it?
Monitor or dog, I always thought that the goal is to treat it and try to preventmore infestation.
Please fill me in.
Thanks

I can only chime in with the rest in saying that proper tmeps, and low stress levels will keep you monitors parasite in check. All healthy monitors have parasites, but its when husbandy conditions are substandard that parasite levels go up and youve got problems. Stress leads to a debilitated immune system, which in turn makes a monitor prone to sucumbing to its normally, non-threatening parasites.

Good luck
-Michelle

I must admit that you did sound a bit overzealous....err something. I had trouble getting through 1/4 of your post, let alone the whole thing.
Its cool though. There are NO stupid questions!( just overzealous ones )

You seem to have the same mentality. Healthy adult dogs don't get common parasites like roundworms. Puppys do (almost all of them) As they get older they become immune to them. Why would you treat your monitor for parasites? Can you give me one good reason?

Yes I can give you one good reason. I can give you many. Why would I treat my monitor for parasites? Well because it has round worms and was thin. I have had it for only a short while after sending back another poor individual. As it is an import, I want it to have the least amount of stress to acclimate to captivity much better and not to mention faster.
1.roundworms found in stool
2.import
3.less stress on the animal
4.time it takes to acclimate
5.to make food intake more efficient and help it put on weight
6.That's enough to say "why wait"
Oh yeah, your dog doesn't become immune to them. Ascarids will thrive in their host victim and harm the animal over time. The round worms will continue to grow and cpoulate and become hideous. The reason you may think that they are immune is because of technology. When you bring your dog to the vet and he says your dog needs heartworm preventative with the drug pyrantel, (hence the word preventative-to prevent it from a comin'), it not only treats the worm you thought it needed to fight, it also kills a myriad of other worms like roundworms and hookworms. So you may never even know that your dog had them because it detroyed them before it got out of hand. Puppies recieve alot of the worms via the mothers teats. Once swallowed throught the nipplies the worms begin to sprout. If one pup has it and defecates, you know puppies and even adult dogs, they smell, sniff, touch, etc then bam the second they decide to clean there paws or like its mouth, it is infected. Puppies tend to defecate so much and are not as clean as adults and that is why they are more likely to spread it......

Blah blah blah.. What the heck are you talking about? You can't answer my question. Heartguard is ivermectin by the way. You just posted the biggest load of @#$!% I don't even feel like responding to that. You do know it would be illegal for you to do animal testing without a permit and aproval right?

No I am not on crack but say what you'd like if it helps you feel better. Yes, I know that it is illegal to do it, say, out of your house or something like that and not in the proper facility. I work for a government research center and going on about 3yrs now and have helped to do the experiments all the time. So, you don't have to worry about me breaking the rules. I am not a criminal.Thanks for you concern.
Oh yeah, I didn't kow that heartguard is the only heartworm preventative. But that is irrelavent. All I have to say is you are not very gifted. You say """"Blah blah blah.. What the heck are you talking about? You can't answer my question.""""This is your question..."""Why would you treat your monitor for parasites? Can you give me one good reason?"""""
How many do you want? I put it right there for you to read in clear english. Wow, you are not as brilliant as you think you are. What do you NOT understand about this?! This is my exact reply. I wrote:

1.roundworms found in stool
2.import
3.less stress on the animal
4.time it takes to acclimate
5.to make food intake more efficient and help it put on weight

Do you need me to go through each one to tell you what it means. Roundworms were found in the stool. That is the first. Do you comprehend that? The second is this animal I have is an import. Do you unerstand that? Third, after treating would allow the animal less stress as the worms would assist with any other problems. Do you understand that? 4. If I do not treat the animal and let it "go" to fend for itself it will increase the time it needs to take to acclimate to captivity if ever adapt. Do you understand that? With worms overloading the systemthe efficiency of the food eaten would be decreased which would slow its progress in filling in back to a nromal weight. Do you understand that? I don't know what you don't understand and why you think someone else is on crack because you can't seem to comprehend simple english. This is not written in latin pal. Sometimes I wonder if you actually read what you have in front of you. I just posted the biggest load of @#$!% that was precisely what you wanted to know and I just posted it again for you to read the answers to you question. Yes, read, a-n-s-w-e-r-s as in plural. You ask me to give you just one reason. Maybe because I gave more than one answer, you couldn't absorb that much in a given time and got confused. Sorry for confusing you. I be sure to make it even more simplified next time.
Thanks for your post.

It was a whitethroated monitor wasnt it? Just buy CB. Problem solved.

Several posts down and back I put that exact phrase in my post. I said next time I won't even deal with wc animals, period. I realize that they are just to problematic to deal with and not worth the risk if you lose one.
I agree with you 100%.

Parasites...or most species of parasites anyway, are mostly harmless... though there are a wide range of them that aren't. If an animal is in good health.. husbandry is right, etc.. then its parasite load shouldn't be too much of an issue.. Its when any animal's body gets run down that a parasite infestation can happen. Parasite Infestations are often a secondary manifestation of a primary underlying problem that may or may not be immediately obvious. When they talk of parasites, they're speaking of the possibly dangerous and deadly types.. without going over many of the actually beneficial types that inhabit our bodies.. and our animal's bodies. This one man is doing a study on parasites... introducing them to people with Irritable bowl syndrome and finding that the disease clears up when humans are carrying a harmless parasite load within their bodies. The same goes for alot of animals.. Gut flora and fauna are parasitic bacteria that help break down food into its component materials. Just about every animal will have some type of parasite...but that doesn't mean its the end of the world.. or even harmful to your animal.

I guess this will cover the post above as well.

You seem to be a bit misguided about treating monitors. First, there has not been any specific treatment for parasites in monitors. they simply take drugs developed from other animals and "try" it on monitors. There is a wave of keepers and vets that are now opposed to treating unless there is a obvious reason. Mostly treating them was recomended because vets do not know anything else to do. They do know how to poison reptiles enough to eliminate parasites. They do not know what else that may harm. Remember, most of the reptiles died quickly in spite of being treated, so there was no information if treating actually was benefitual.

And Andrew is right, PE Mostly imports montiors, but are trying hard to breed them.

Domestic mice and insects, Have not shown to transmitt parasites. The person would tells you different is only making up stuff to justify his own methods.(thats common with all of us)

Normal parasites are a normal natural part of a monitors life. The monitors reinfest themselfs with every meal in nature. Yet they do better there then here. (see I am doing that now)

Which leads to the fact that so far, captivity totally sucks, as most cannot or do not keep their monitors alive long enough to achieve life events.

In nature, over 90% of each years offspring die early. They are killed by millions of different factors. In captivity, 99% percent die early, from bad husbandry. Here there are no predators, parasites, fires, floods, etc. Only negleckfull keepers.

Indeed if you are in your final years of college, then you should have learned that research is "NOT" going on the internet and believing heresay. Good luck F

FR, I see your points. What you say makes total sense to me just as alot of the posts folks have posted to help out (well most have tried to help). For those that do put what they know or think they may know, I also appreciate, because someone else will add to what the other had put.

About colle[bleep]e years, yes, I totally understand that research shouldn't be [bleep]o[bleep] oon the internet and read[bleep] and believe[bleep] heresay. But the fact to the matter is I haven't even looked at the internet about whatever you think I was che[bleep]out and absorb[bleep] it [bleep]ulibly. Seriously, I haven't and if I did then I would just tell you the site or whatever to see what you [bleep]uys tho[bleep]ht. I wouldn't pla[bleep]erize knowled[bleep]e like that. It would be a total waste of my time, and honestly, pointless. What would I [bleep]ain. Noth[bleep]. You see. But thanks for your help anyways.

I don't know what all that bleep stuff is but I [bleep]uess try to [bleep]uess what I tried to write. I went back to look and it is all messed up. It seems to be ta[bleep] the letter [bleep] out of the word connected to other letters. Not sure. Sorry if I hit some weird button and caused this. I can't tell you what it is as this is the first time I have seen this.

I have no "control" group as you might think. Like Richard said that would mean me having at least 75-100 animals to make the study worth my while. To do what you are saying could really hurt the monitors in the long run especially a rare import such as the Finschi.
1) The picture: That mouse was supposed to have been dead. Freshly killed by the shop that I bought it from. But when I walked in there to check on her the mouse had moved from one side of the rubbermaid to the other and was sleeping on her. I quickly grabbed the camera and took the picture doing that girlie "oh how cute" thing, then I proceeded to snatch that little mouse right up and crack it over the head to ensure the little vermin was dead this time. I even waited for blood to drip. The Finschi don't like F/T mice so I have to give them fresh killed prey.

2) Captive bred/birthed mice do not have parasites! Seeing as how the Finschi are wild caughts they are going to have parasites from their environment, which is normal. Thanks to Danny (D&J Reptiles) in Indo the animals were treated for them and I've yet to see anyhting on the animals, in their stool and even their fecals came out negative. I would be more concerned that my other monitors would give them a parasite first compared to the mouse. But since they are not housed near each other and no catact has been made in any for including monitor - human - monitor contact. I was and steralize everything after each monitor be it my Savs or the Finschi.

3) Parasites on your animal: If you buy a WC monitor it's going to have parasites, even ticks and mites that can travel on the host body. I agree with Goon, yes this is a husbandry issue if it wasn't taken care of as soon as the animal arrived. Which means that you recieved the monitor and set it right into it's new cage w/out treatment. Then not only do you have bugs on your monitor but everything else inside that cage that the animal that has touched. So even if the monitor was placed into a new built cage it and the furniture (logs, dirt, fake plants, etc.) will infect the new cage. Removing the little beasties is a major pain in the ass once they have infected a whole cage.

So you see, you have been thinking too much. As much as I would love to be the studious woman you thinking of, I'm not! I just keep a tight rein on all that goes on in the health and safety of my monitors. The Finschi by the way were quaruntined when they arrived. Wild caught monitors always have parasites including internal, so they should be treated for them. That should be performed either by the seller or the buyer. The buyer should always make an external body check and a fecal check on the animal asap. If it has parasites remove them, if not, make a check in a couple of weeks to see if anything was missed.
This is all that I do. I just do what has worked for me in the past but I'm still learning a lot.
Thanks, hope all this babbling helped.
-----
Christine :>~

As far as spreading anything to it from other reptiles is no problemo. The 5 ft ornate and my other large ornate went to a few guys on the east coast who wanted to breed them. He had a project going and has like 8 adults and a few babies. He wants to come out with different morphs. He has a few varieties of other reptiles too like a couple pair of albino red tails etc. So it went to a good home. The other guy on the other hand traded me for his white throat. The 1st one he sent was horrible and never kept anything down for weeks. So after a fat vet bill and not finding any parasites after I treated it weeks before it was going to cost upwards of $300 to run blood tests and x-rays to further find out what was wrong. It could have been kidney failure or just about anything else. I didn't go for that as I should have gotten a healthy one to begin with so I sent it back and asked for another more healthy specimen. He sent this one. I didn't want to have this one become ill in the least bit so I took the measures I did to prevent anything from happening. When I got this guy he was immediatley put in quarantine. The enclosure it is in now is 4X2X2 with newspaper, a water bowl, basking spot with a large rock under the lamp, and a hiding 1/2 cut log. He will remain here for the next few weeks before I move it over to the other enclosure which is 7ft x 3 1/2ft x 30in tall. The lizard is 1.5ft so both are fine. The latter cage is equipt with 8in of cypress mulch, numerous plants, logs, fake plants, lamps,etc. Both cages hold temp perfectly fine. The smaller enclosures windows are newspapered up to help with the transition. The temp on the large cage are the same give or take 2-3 degrees. The 4x2 cage has a basking spot of 127 and ambient of 82 during the day, at night as I switch the bulb out it drops to a basking spot of 117 and ambient of 80, solid. The larger cage has timers to turn the day lamps and night lamps on and off so it is self regulating. So my temps are not a prob. The reason I keep it on newspaper is b/c it is easier to keep sterile. He goes on it, I crumple it up and throw it away. Then weekly I take the sample to the vet to check it out for anything new. I am waiting until it is clean. I won't put him in the large enclosure until it is clean. Like you said earlier, and I know from first hand, cleaning a large cage and sterilizing all the logs and rocks are a pain. So that is why I wanted it to be parasite free. I don't want it to reinfect itself. A dog would at least try to avoid it but a monitor may just cruise right over it and not think twice.

So from what I am gathering here is , yes, treat it as it is a wild caught and is thin (but filling in slowly). But after it is free from the parasites then just let it go and don't treat it anymore unless something goes south with it?
Hey, sorry to make this a long. I just thought everyone here fed frozen to prevent it from getting more parasites and injuries. I guess I was wrong....
Thanks

Most of the tapeworms and mites rodents carry are species/Genus specific = these tapeworms only like mammalian guts and and rodent/mammal hair/skin to live upon, and will not hurt the monitor much at all. Mammals parasites stick to mammals, reptile parasites stick to reptiles, especially ectoparasites (exterior parasites).

Ticks on the other are abit more flexable. Aponomma exornatum, the Ornate monitor tick of East Africa or the Indo-Malaysian tick Aponomma gervaisi, both varanid-based tick species prefer varanids as hosts, but have been known to a few snakes and a mammal on very rare occassions when their reptile foo hosts were absent.

cheers,
mbayless

So since mine is an import and not treated what I am doing is fine? Once treated, feed it rodents(f/t or fresh) among other things, and not worm it anymore until I see parasites physically or until the monitors health diminishes. When it starts to diminish then bring stool samples to see if that is why it is having complications. Then it would be a cancellation method, dropping one thing if that's not it and move to the next issue as to why it is becoming sickly?
Thanks

Here's the deal so you will stop stressing so much.It's a possibility to give your monitor worms from live mice(if the mice have worms).My point was,why take any chance.A parasite free monitor will not get worms from frozen rodents.I haven't had a problem with worms for 15 years!(other than an adult WC Blackthroat that already had a ton of tapeworms).No problem there eitherI got 2 doses of Droncit from my Vet friend and cleared it right up.Never got them again.You need to relax a bit and TRY to enjoy your monitor

hhmmm...

np

np