Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I understand your curiousity. I think the problem is, lack of a set goal. And lack of set information. I am sure, if all I went by was captive information, I would not make heads or tails of it, nor would I care too.

For instance, why I harp on choices is. When watching snakes in the field, they are at all times, I mean, at all times, making choices. Their life is controlling their temps in order to achieve lifes events. Remember, they are ectotherms. These choices are not limited to temps. With temps, they commonly pick temps near freezing to over 100F. They pick them for thier use.

The main difference between captivity and nature is, an extreme insensitivity to the full range of these choices and their effects on the animal.

So, in order to make sense out if it. You really should find a steady goal. A little story, in the monitor world, the information is 99% theory and supposition. As very very few people actually do anything. It was a world of theory based on theory. In a conversation with a keeper, He asked, The books said this,(doen't matter what it was) and my monitor did this(different then the book) This compares to your problem. He then asked which one should he believe? the monitor or the book. Of course I was flabbergasted. My little peabrain, could not understand how anyone could take anything written by anyone, over reality. The animal is the book(the real book), the other book(the one we read) is somebodys interpitation of some small part of that animal. It could be right, wrong or anywhere inbetween. It could be right is some context, or in some set condition. But without question, no matter what the animal does, its right. The reason its right, the animal is the subject. Its what our books are written about.

For instance, if a book says snakes do not fart. Then your snake farts. There is one fact, the snake farted. Who gives a fart, what the other book says.

Please understand, books/papers/articules or other peoples experiences are fine. They are just not all encompassing. In fact, they are limited in various degrees.

So I take wild reptiles over the BOOK, and I believe them. I know that sounds funny, but most people don't, they want to believe somebody(human). I believe, in fact I know, wild reptiles have many and varied behaviors, they have many and varied abilities. They have these to exsist in a world where each year there can be changes. Their lives are behaviors. They do nothing but make decisions to work there way thru life. Yet in captivity, we often give them no decisions to make, OH how weird is that?

So yes, I get confused when people give them a five degree choice then say, no demand they are right. Hmmmmmmm yes I am confused. So heck with the people and I will go watch and believe in the reptiles themselves.

How this pertains to you. Unless you understand why they pick different temps, and what those temps are. You will not figure out what they REALLY do.

One last thought. Maybe people believe books(written material) because they know how to read books. They do not believe the actual animals because they do not know how to read snakes. In the end, this last paragraph is the real truth. Cheers

I am with you on all you said here. I do not believe only in books because I have found them to be wrong. The problem I have is that I do not have the access to the wild snakes where I am currently (Chicago). In fact if my girlfriend was not as amazing as she is I would not be here at all. I am planning a move south and west after she finishes with her school.

While I have over 100 snakes in my house, they are captives and they are subject to my choices,my stupidity, my imagination, and my ingenuity. This means they will only show what I allow them to show me. So yes I am all over the place with things I am looking into and I am very stubborn in not believing what I hear from others until I see the snakes prove it. Or if it is written everywhere and I see no opposition to it anywhere but if I do...

For instance, there are quite a few books that say snakes are solitary hunters and have no social activities outside of mating and hibernating. Yet there are two crazy old guys who keep saying they see it. So I get curious to see if the books are wrong. Then I meet a guy who tells me about a den site that he watches where he does not touch the animals and he has seen on multiple occasions signs of community. He tells me he has seen the dominate male WDB rattle in front of the opening to its den. He tells me it did not retreat until all the females entered. Once they have he dives right in.

Now I have two sources on info about something that goes against the books. So what should I do?? I should get my butt out in the field and test it. Problem is I am in the wrong area for it. So for now I am going to sit behind a computer and throw out questions. Use the internet for something other than selling things, downloading music and porn. HAHAAHA

When I get out of this area I think my time behind a computer will be far less and you will have far fewer post with my questions to answer. Until then i am going to be sitting here post questions.

later Jason

You're so cool Jason. The honesty alone is very appealing and refreshing. What is your girl studying? If you don't mind me asking.

I came here for help & had to believe that my ignorance of WC would be educated, even if not widely accepted. I've been asking a lot of questions but I realize this experience I've embarked on with rescuing this WC Cali King from the workplace is going to prove a study in progress. I'm so curious about taming him and to me it's not just taming a wild (capture) king but one that has had a very stressful and neglected first year. I feel like you in that as many questions as I can ask, it is only when I put it into practice will I find out the 'accurate' and 'inaccurate' facts of it all.

I have to say it has only been a few days but since coming to my home the Lil King is alreay showing signs of progress. He started with total HIDE, then began poking his head out to see if I was around and watching & waiting for me to go to bed. This evening he came out while I was sitting close and instead of going into complete hide, he began to do rotations around the tank! Rotations turned into just checkign things out and climbing around. It's a work in progress without a doubt!

Jason,

Frank mentions that people don't know how to read snakes. We have spent a long time chomping on this subject.

People can't even figure out human behavior. Humans share understandable body language, the ability to document and share thoughts over many generations in many languages via books, journals, or even word of mouth.

Sadly, we do not speak snake. Furthermore, snakes have a complex highly differentiated body language that is minute in detail, and they do an awful job picking up a pen to jot down helpful hints for us.

There is so much to learn; so keep asking questions. In lieu of fieldwork, question what you see in that hundred beast collection of yours. That is where you will learn more than anything any of us can tell you.

You just gotta learn to speak snake.

LOL Thanks Hugh. I will get on to language lessons.

later Jason

This is a post on our forum. A nice fella was wondering about what he should do with his newly acquired group of four small monitors.

How this relates to you(I think, but am not sure) is, its about setting a direction. Then sticking with a direction, and letting it run out. With snakes, there are tons of different directions, and many can allow snakes to live and breed.

What I am getting at is, to investigate, you must set a direction and stick with it. If your wondering about other directions, then set up two different ones and compare them after a set period of time. You know an amount of time that fits. Like a few generations. You can do them at the same time, or one at a time.

Anyway heres the post, and its all in good humor,

You must understand, that decisions based on second by second data, are most likely wrong.
These things we work with are not all that sensitive. You can go days, weeks, months, and even years, doing it wrong. You really do not have to make decisions every second.

You do get the point don't you? and keep us informed, its all in fun. Cheers

I think the fun is, changing directions. Cheers

I absolutely have to avoid you after 24 hour shifts with no sleep at the firehouse.... at least after 9 out of 10 shifts like that.