Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a male western hognose that I have had for several years. He has always ate sporatically. Sometimes he'll eat every week for a month or two and then not eat again for 3 or 4 months. However since December he has only attempted to eat two mice and has regurgitated both within a day or so of eating them. I was wondering if anyone had any ideas as to what would cause this.

Thanks

Adam

What are the temps.? Mine would regurge if they where not warm enough.
-----
Jenea

1:1 Tricolor Hognose
0:0:2 Florida Redbelly Snakes
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

I agree, and I would try a smaller then usual sise mouse. and then dont bug him!

JIM

He is currently housed in a 33 gallon aquarium.

Surface temperature on the hot side is 45 deg C or 113 deg F
Surface temperature on the cool side is 25 deg C or 77 deg F

He is pretty active, even during the periods when he isn't eating

I rarely handle him. I weigh him every couple of months. I never handle him just after he ate.

He is captive bred and I have had him since he was quite small so I didn't think parasites would be a problem. I have never housed him with any other snakes.

The last mouse I tried was quite a bit smaller than what I had been feeding him and he still threw it up.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Adam
-----
Adam
http://anraviary.cjb.net
0.0 African Sidenecked, 0.0 Northern Diamondback Terrapin, 0.1 Redfoot, 0.1 Sulcatta, 1.0 Western Hognose, 1.0 Crested Gecko, 0.1 Mali Uromastyx

113 F is mighty hot.
-----
Jenea

1:1 Tricolor Hognose
0:0:2 Florida Redbelly Snakes
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

>>He is captive bred and I have had him since he was quite small so I didn't think parasites would be a problem. I have never housed him with any other snakes.

This is a common misconception, and not at all true. If you have EVER fed it anything other than mice that were frozen for more 30 days, there is a strong likelihood that parasites could have been introduced. Captive bred doesn't necessarily mean anything, the breeder didn't keep it perfectly isolated from the moment it was hatched.

The point is that people always try to find a way out of acknowledging parasites. They have a hard time understanding the tremendous influence they have on herps. Parasites often manifest in problems like regurgitation. Furthur, the point is you probably have SOME parasites involved, and it should be taken care of.
-----
Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society
http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/VHS

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

... nature has ceased to be what it always had been - what people needed protection from. Now nature - tamed, endangered, mortal - needs to be protected from people. When we are afraid, we shoot. But when we are nostalgic, we take pictures.
Susan Sontag

I appreciate your help and you obviously have strong views on this subject. However overmedication can be a problem as well, not to mention the stress involved. I am not going to medicate for parasites unless parasites are there. I have never fed him anything but f/t. If I continue to have issues with him regurgitating after adjusting the temperatures down, I will surely bring in a fecal sample to be tested for parasites.
-----
Adam
http://anraviary.cjb.net
0.0 African Sidenecked, 0.0 Northern Diamondback Terrapin, 0.1 Redfoot, 0.1 Sulcatta, 1.0 Western Hognose, 1.0 Crested Gecko, 0.1 Mali Uromastyx

Why not take a fecal now while he is strong, instead of waiting for him to get worse?? No sterss involved, and you would be able to rule it out. Just a thought....it is simple and does not make a lot of sense to wait. I got a pair of CB Tricolors only fed f/t, and the first thing I did was a fecal. It is just wise precaution.

Is his poo runny? Or smell?
-----
Jenea

1:1 Tricolor Hognose
0:0:2 Florida Redbelly Snakes
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

Getting a fresh fecal sample may be difficult do to
how infrequently he eats. His feces are solid not runny.

Thanks again
-----
Adam
1.0 Western Hognose

>>Getting a fresh fecal sample may be difficult do to
>>how infrequently he eats. His feces are solid not runny.

The infrequency of defecation certainly can be a problem, but if you are lucky to have a herp savvy vet, there are ways to "extract" a sample. Solid versus runny should not matter!
-----
Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society
http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/VHS

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

... nature has ceased to be what it always had been - what people needed protection from. Now nature - tamed, endangered, mortal - needs to be protected from people. When we are afraid, we shoot. But when we are nostalgic, we take pictures.
Susan Sontag

> overmedication can be a problem as well,

As far as we know, the snake is not receiving any medication. In addition, I am not aware of any resistance to the common medications for parasites. That is good thinking, but overmedication should not be a concern at this point.

> not to mention the stress involved.

Anyone who knows what they're doing can administer the medications orally in less than 20 seconds (tying my shoes takes longer!). The amount of stress associated with delivering the medication is negligible compared to the stress his body is going through from the regurgitation and what ever is causing the regurgitation. Stress, in these cases, should never be an argument against proper treatment.

> I am not going to medicate for parasites unless parasites are there.

Excellent points to emphasize here! When I make the statement "treat for parasites" I am operating under the assumption that a qualified person would do the appropriate test to determine the presence of parasites before administering any drugs.

> I have never fed him anything but f/t.

This certainly decreases the chances of parasite transmission as stated in a previous post, but does not totally exempt you from a genuine concern about parasites. Unless you thoroughly sanitize EVERYthing that touches to your snake, any of the other reptiles in your collection could have transmitted a parasite/disease.

> If I continue to have issues with him regurgitating after adjusting the temperatures down, I will surely bring in a fecal sample to be tested for parasites.

Agreed. Although my emphasis has been on parasites, it has only been that way to convince you that parasites should be a genuine concern, although adjusting the captive environment should be the first priority.
-----
Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society
http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/VHS

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

... nature has ceased to be what it always had been - what people needed protection from. Now nature - tamed, endangered, mortal - needs to be protected from people. When we are afraid, we shoot. But when we are nostalgic, we take pictures.
Susan Sontag

I cannot emphasize enough the importance of eliminating internal parasites from captive snakes in general, and especially hognoses. It has been remarked in the scientific literature that hognoses seem to be especially susceptible to internal parasites. You make no mention of any previous health problems or visits to the veterinarian, so I'm going to assume that you are among the majority of the herpetoculturists that don't actively treat for parasites.

Other than too high or too low temperatures and excessive handling, there would be no point discussing the causes of regurgitation without having a thorough examination by a veterinarian. Parasites are one of the biggest problems (causes of death) for captive reptiles and amphibians, and ironically one of the easiest things to treat. The drug most typically used, Panacure, is ridiculously safe, easy to administer and cheap.

Post back and tell us if handling or temperatures could be the cause, otherwise I urge you to take a trip to the veterinarian. Good luck
-----
Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society
http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/VHS

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

... nature has ceased to be what it always had been - what people needed protection from. Now nature - tamed, endangered, mortal - needs to be protected from people. When we are afraid, we shoot. But when we are nostalgic, we take pictures.
Susan Sontag

That is to hot for a western hog. Try to get it around 85F at the hot end of the tank and 70F at the cool end.

Ok I'll try a lower wattage heat lamp. The 85 I can probably do, but our house is generally around 74 degrees, so I doubt i can get the cool end into the 70s

Thanks for your help

Adam
-----
Adam
http://anraviary.cjb.net
0.0 African Sidenecked, 0.0 Northern Diamondback Terrapin, 0.1 Redfoot, 0.1 Sulcatta, 1.0 Western Hognose, 1.0 Crested Gecko, 0.1 Mali Uromastyx

Don't worry about taking it down to 85F, that temperature is often quoted but has no basis on hognose thermal preferences. 113F is indeed too hot, but I have been a strong proponent of giving captive herps hot enough temperatures. I simply don't understand the reasoning behind such low temps such as 85F.
I did a literature search, below. The ideal temps are high 90s up to 100. Thanks for converting to F!

_____________________
Questions often come up about the ideal temperatures for captive hognose snakes. I decided to do a literature review on the thermal preferences of western and eastern hognoses. I first relied on the classic by Dwight Platt, his publication on the natural history of hognoses from 1969. Included in this extensive study, are his findings on the cloacal temperatures of hognoses immediately after capture in the field by hand, and in an outdoor pen in which both shade in full sunlight were available.

Cloacal temperatures of normally active snakes was between 81° and 95 °. No normally active snakes were captured with cloacal temperatures above 96.8°below 68° (early in the morning after emergence from their burrow). The maximum basking temperature of the snakes in the outdoor pen was 90°. The critical maximum temperature was around 105°.

Next I refer to a paper by James Kitchell on the thermophilic and thermophobic responses of different snakes along a thermogradient maintained in an artificial enclosure. The eastern hognoses were maintained in eight-foot long enclosures with temperatures varying from 59° to 113°. For the hognoses, the normal body temperature range,
74° to 99° - average of 89°
After feeding,
91° to 96° - average of 92°
In ecdysis (shedding)
62° to 67° - average of 64°

Although not significant, the average body temperatures for the 24 hour period after feeding was consistently higher than the normal averages. The author supposes that the higher mean body temperature of hognoses correspond with the warmer conditions of their typically upland habitats. The lower temperatures associated with ecdysis may relate to the increased risk of predation, and the advantages of a cool/moist environment that probably facilitates the initial stages involved in casting the skin. Interestingly, heavily parasitized individuals and those injured, generally retreated to the cooler portions of the gradient. This behavior is counterintuitive in my opinion, although this may be explained by the relatively short five day period of experimentation and low sample size (not specified, but probably less than 10 individuals).

My main motivation for this literature review is that I believe there is a consistent problem with amateur herpetoculturists simply not providing enough heat to their reptiles. Although I have seen this problem most prevalent with captive turtles, I believe that any diurnal reptile (referring mostly to the North American native/temperate species) should be provided with a very warm spot for basking. I think too many people underestimate the need for reptiles to reach their proper body temperature. Room temperature alone is clearly not enough. A warm enough area should be provided to the reptile that not only provides enough heat for it to obtain its ideal body temperature, but also account for problems with the snake that may necessitate higher temperatures. These so-called "behavioral fevers" may be needed when the snake's immune system is compromised in times of pathogenic infections and parasitism. My own observations have clearly showed me from these forums that most captive herps do not get the basic veterinary care afforded to other groups of animals. Compound that with the usual total lack of understanding of the effects of parasites on captive herps, especially a group of snakes that tend to be heavily parasitized like the hognoses. Providing the necessary temperatures for a hognose to warm up more than its normal body temperature to fight off possible infection is worth the extra effort when considering that most people will never have their hognoses tested for parasites, and most will not go to the veterinarian because they have the expectation of finding a home remedy on an Internet forum. Platt (1969) states that hognoses have a high normal activity range and a high mean cloacal temperature compared to other snakes. Therefore, I recommend providing basking temperatures that are higher on the scale than normally recommended, 90° to 95°.

These numbers above also showed the need for a proper temperature gradient, so that the snake can get cool when ever it feels the need. Surprisingly to me, not only do hognoses like to get cool when they are trying to shed, but they like to get REALLY cool. Most people can not possibly provide a 62° corner in the snake's enclosure during the summer, but it certainly illustrates the point of providing the ability to escape the heat as the snake sees fit. I have trouble making the recommendation on these forums about using 10 gallons for adult hognoses. There's simply no way to provide a 90° to 95° hotspot and a 75° cool spot only 6 inches away. Therefore, I recommend only the use of 20 gallon tanks because of the necessary need to provide a thermogradient. This also corresponds intuitively with the active foraging movements of the hognose, the larger tank thereby provides more active space for more natural movements.

I generally despise the assumptions made for captive herps just because that same species performs a particular behavior in the wild. With this post, I hope this will elicit some responses from experienced and knowledgeable people (like breeders) who will provide their observations on preferred temperature and how it relates to productivity.

Literature Cited

Platt, D.R. 1969. Natural history of the hognose snakes Heterodon platyrhinos and Heterodon nasicus. University of Kansas Publications Museum of Natural History. 18 (4):253-420.

Kitchell, J.F. 1969. Thermophilic and thermophobic responses of snakes in a thermal gradient. Copeia. 1969 (1):189-191.
-----
Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society
http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/VHS

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

... nature has ceased to be what it always had been - what people needed protection from. Now nature - tamed, endangered, mortal - needs to be protected from people. When we are afraid, we shoot. But when we are nostalgic, we take pictures.
Susan Sontag

When I kept my Easterns hot side at 90F, they would crawl up on top of the hide to get closer to the basking light. When I increased the temp a little they where more content. Just my observations.
-----
Jenea

1:1 Tricolor Hognose
0:0:2 Florida Redbelly Snakes
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

As per temps, are these surface temps with a temp gun? I find surface temps are higher than the air temps measured by a thermometer, thus the range can be stretched higher than normally quoted. Ultimately, use the behavior of your snake as a guide. Yours being highly active, and regurgitating is reason enough to see what lowing the temps a little does for it.

You measure weights semi-regularly. What's the loss? Greater than 10% means a vet trip is needed (assist feeding, med's, fluid therapy ect)

While we havn't ignored that we are all not vet's, perhaps enough emphasis hasn't been placed on a visit (use the results of your temp changes, weight changes, and further behavior/regurg to judge for yourself). What has been ignored is the other possibilities for anorexia/regurgition. Foriegn bodies are more rare in snakes, but do occur. Intusceptions are another lethal condition that is basically an inside/out twisting of the gut which kills the gut, and then the snake. If I thought really hard I could think of a few more possibilities, but the gist of it all is that (depending on temp change response that is) it doesn't sound like your run-of-the-mill regurg. case.

If favourable responses aren't in the near future, get this guy to the vet for a good workup.

Ian

Great info there Ian. But I hope you can see this is yet another example for why we need to write out a thorough explanation on parasites and captive herps.
-----
Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society
http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/VHS

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

... nature has ceased to be what it always had been - what people needed protection from. Now nature - tamed, endangered, mortal - needs to be protected from people. When we are afraid, we shoot. But when we are nostalgic, we take pictures.
Susan Sontag

Mine is on hiatus during examination prep... how's yours going?

Ian