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My thoughts on slowing the price drops

tomsey Mar 28, 2006 04:01 PM

I know......Why bring up the market discussion??
The way I see it, if John Doe wants to move some snakes real fast to pay taxes or whatever, he feels the need to drop his price below market to make a quick sale. Well, Jack Doe sees these low prices and thinks this might be the new market value and drops his price below John's because he also needs a quick sale to pay his taxes. (LOL, I use the example of taxes because I have seen this many times in the classifieds.)
Well, eventually the new market price is set.
WHAT IF WalMart has a sale on Sterilite tubs.........will every other retailer think this is the new price on Sterilites?? NO!!!!!!!! They just wait for Walmart to run it's sale and then the prices come back up to market.

REMEDY: When a breeder decides to have a sale (has surplus animals, needs quick cash for a project, etc), EVERYONE should maintain their regular prices and wait out his sale. I think the prices will drop at a slower rate by doing this.

Note: I know that prices will drop as supply increases, I just think that the rate of decline in prices can be slowed.

Okay, I know squat about economics, so feel free to tear this apart and educate me.
Thanks for reading!!

Replies (25)

galveston22 Mar 28, 2006 04:11 PM

quit crying you baby.
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Peace

tomsey Mar 28, 2006 04:22 PM

Hello there good fellow. I do believe you misunderstood my post. I was not crying. I was merely offering a suggestion on slowing the decline of prices which would have great monetary benefits to you.....good fellow. Why are you against that?
Thanks for your valuable input.

Tomsey Bitago

>>quit crying you baby.
>>-----
>>Peace

bpconnection Mar 28, 2006 05:01 PM

>>I was merely offering a suggestion on slowing the decline of prices which would have great monetary benefits to you.....good fellow. Why are you against that?

I do believe, 'ol chap, that if what you suggested was actually implemented, that would be considered price fixing and that is against the law. That would be one reason why I would be against it. I might be wrong though!

(ps...love the good fellow...reminds me of the "Upsy Daisy" from Notting Hill!)
-----
Jeremy Conrad
_____________

...Can't...stop...must...get...more...balls...

gardenmum Mar 28, 2006 09:35 PM

as I read your topic line. That was a funny scene. lol.

EmberBall Mar 28, 2006 04:16 PM

What you say makes sense, and is a pretty obvious "remedy", however, it is not at all realistic. KS is not the only place to sell Balls, and if you look at different sellers website's, the prices are all ready all over the board. Some sites have old prices, some have new prices, some have sale prices. I think the bigger breeders will always be able to sell for more, especially hets, and that is just a fact of life. I have had my adult Pastel male and 400 gram Mojave poss Het Hypo for sale for about a month, with several offers, but none that I have accepted. These are animals that I do not mind keeping, so the price I accept will be NEAR the asking price, or I keep them. The Mojave is my only male Mojave at this time, and is a poss het Hypo, so I will hold onto him and try to prove him a 100% Het, vs. sell him to a lowball offer. The Pastel is a good breeder, so I will keep him as back up vs. sell him to a lowball offer. Now, if I get some baby Pastels this year, I will take less than if I got a Pastel that is Het for something, and could replace my normal Pastel. Now, any baby I produce that is equal to or less valuable than my currant breeder, I will deal on, any animal that I produce that is "better", or higher end than my currant breeder, I will be less likely to deal on. Also, I will be more likely to deal on males than females for the obvious reason, I can keep back numerous females to add to my breeding program.

toshamc Mar 28, 2006 04:20 PM

A wise man once said:

I think some of us have to get used to prices coming down. The only way to keep the prices up - breed less.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizard of unknown origin

EmberBall Mar 28, 2006 04:38 PM

wanna let her date your male

Dave

toshamc Mar 28, 2006 04:55 PM

Sounds good to me!
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizard of unknown origin

bpconnection Mar 28, 2006 04:58 PM

>>REMEDY: When a breeder decides to have a sale (has surplus animals, needs quick cash for a project, etc), EVERYONE should maintain their regular prices and wait out his sale. I think the prices will drop at a slower rate by doing this.
>>

OK...here's an idea...

When I list my balls right under "market value", everyone else should just raise their prices even higher.

That way, mine will sell faster and in the long run, prices will actually rise!
-----
Jeremy Conrad
_____________

...Can't...stop...must...get...more...balls...

jmartin104 Mar 28, 2006 05:11 PM

>
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

tomsey Mar 28, 2006 05:31 PM

I had no idea how many people are FOR price slashing and market drops. This is fantastic. I can't wait for the days when albinos are $200, mojaves are $400 and you can't even give away a pastel. Yip yip!!!!!!!
Let's all shoot ourselves in the foot and make those $100,000 collections worth nothing.
Let's not wait......let's do it NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's get those FIRE SALES going right away..........I need quick cash for taxes, my car repair, a deck on the house, wife needs spending money.......and I'm gonna do it to please you all.

I will aquire 200 females and breed the heck out of mojaves and flood the market with them at $1000 each. Why not.....I will get my $400,000.....why should I care.
Thanks for clearing things up. Goodbye.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

EmberBall Mar 28, 2006 06:15 PM

What Ball morphs do you own? Did you put $50K worth of Balls on your CC, and now are beginning to think you made a mistake? Did you trade your BMW for a few Balls? Did you pay $18K for a male Mojave last year, and now you are pissed that it will not make you your millions like you thought? If you did not overextend yourself financially, and purchased morphs you like, you should be fine. If you quit your job and charged 2.5 Spiders at $4K a spider, and now think you might have paid too much, and got the wrong morph, you may have a problem. If you got an equity loan to buy some Balls and quit your job and now fear you may have to go crawling back to your old boss, then I can see how you might be upset. If none of the above scenerios apply to you, then relax, and enjoy the process, and money will come eventually.

picassoreptiles Apr 06, 2006 07:15 AM

Buying a load of girls and producing a ton of snakes is exactly what ALL of the larger boa/ball breeders have done!
They look at it from the same viewpoint, as prices fall they will just put out more. It is a natural progression that all must get used to.

I produce alot of snakes every year and have never sold one at market value. The market value is set by the dudes with LOTS of snakes, and if you try to sell a visual or het for what the bigger guys get, you will end up w/lots of holdbacks!!!

Any of you out there want killer snakes cheap, call me!

crazydart Mar 28, 2006 07:56 PM

besides the crazy in and out answers everyone else gave, you are missing how econimics works. Its supply and demand. Example... I have 5 pastel males, I want to move them at a show, and need to move atleast 2 by the end of the show or I dont make my house payment... what do you think I am going to do? Or what if I had a spider on hodl with another breeder and had to get it paid off and I wasnt going to another show for 3 months.... so now what? I would be more than willing to take $450 each on the pastels, because I need that $450 to put into something else. If you have 3 people with the same story at the same show, the price will drop VERY fast... perhaps you will get them for $350 each... or maybe just a few for that price... then imagine this little show was a big show with 500 vendors... then imagine that show was really kingsnake... you get the picture. Your right, some people freak out and start lowering their prices when they see a low price. I take it you have never traded on the stock market... its alot like that. If I buy a stock in the morning at $10 and at noon its at $9, and hasnt gone up once that day, do I cut my losses and sell at $9, or do I hold on and try to sell at $10 or even $11. So ok, thats supply and demand... dosnt seem like it huh? Well, if at that reptile show someone had come in and bought all of the pastels for asking price, and no more or very few where still for sale, then market price will stay the same or go up (providing there is still a market willing to pay a higher price).... if none of the snakes sold even at a low price, the market price was lower than what they where being sold for, or the market wasnt there.

If you are the kind of person who thinks people should not drop their prices just because the compitition is, thats just fine, you will just join the ranks of many breeders who hold on to their snakes year after year as they drop in price, all the while, the rest of us are spending that money on diversifying our collections. You will have 30 pastels... I will have 3 pied pastels insted. Is it still a fuzzy picture? I would say you need to take some business classes... they go into depth on this subject in economics classes. Unlike most markets, tha ball python market is REALLY easy to predict (without figuring in new morphs). You know how many of a given morph are going to be produced. You can expect every year the population of each morph will go up by about x^3 where x is a co-dom or dom morph, and y^2 where y is a recessive morph. These are made up figures, I am sure you could get it almost to a T if you have all the figures, but I dont... I can just watch the classifieds. I make a copy of them all once a week on CD... so if I wounder what the price and suppy of a morph was last year at this time, I just pop in my CD and look. Once you have several years of this data, its not real hard to figure out what beat everyone dances by.

The only way the price will ever rise on a morph will be if some hidden genetics are found. In other markets prices will rise because of many factors, the biggest being hard to get resources and labor problems. You are not going to ever see this in ball pythons... so sell while you can get what you can.

Nuff said. Infact, too much.

Ben

wftright Mar 28, 2006 09:06 PM

Okay, I know squat about economics, so feel free to tear this apart and educate me.

I'm a little surprised when you make a statement like the one above and then become sarcastic when people do as you asked. Admittedly, I didn't agree with the tone of all of the responses, but you asked for vigorous discussion. In many ways, you simply got the response that you requested.

In response to your original post, I think you put too much emphasis on "the market." Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but I sense that you see the market as "The Market," some all-powerful force that dictates our lives and decisions. If "The Market" says that we must act a certain way or make a certain decision, then we must act that way or make that decision.

I see the market differently. The market is not something that tells me what I must do. The market is just a measurement of the individual decisions that individuals make by their free choices. If I decide that a certain item is worth a certain price to me and someone who has that item decides that having my money is worth not having that item, we trade. If others make similar trades, then the "market" price for the item is near what I paid and he received. If others choose to buy or sell at different prices, then the "market" price will be different. Sometimes the choices of those around us are favorable to us, and sometimes those choices are not favorable to us. We should demand a certain level of honesty in the process, but otherwise, people should be free to do as they please.

I'm not surprised that ball python prices drop at certain times of the year. March/April is a time when many people need cash to pay taxes, to begin paying those "90 day same as cash" credit terms that they used at Christmas, and to pay for those new cars that look so tempting now that the snow is melting and the sun is shining. Each seller and each buyer are making individual choices based on their needs and values at the time. If someone who has nice morphs doesn't need the cash immediately and doesn't want to sell at those prices, then he or she can wait until the prices rebound.

The only things that can really change the price of ball python morphs are long term changes in either supply or demand. If every individual who owned a pied ball python suddenly needed cash and decided to sell their animals at $200 each, a bunch of snakes would change hands. However, six months later when whatever caused this situation had changed, the demand for these snakes would be the same and the price would rise to current levels. If you were the one pied owner who kept his pied, the value of your animal would return to its previous level.

Your scenario assumes that dropping prices must remain low. I disagree with this assumption. The long term price will depend on the long term demand. If one dealer dropping his price causes the others to follow suit and the prices remain low, then the supply and demand had simply reached a point where these animals were overpriced. Who drops prices first, who follows, and when they follow are irrelevant. The issue is what price individual buyers choose to give for these snakes and what price individual sellers are willing to take for them.

As a final example, let's consider the opposite scenario. What if Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie make a movie where the lead character carried a pied ball python everywhere he (or she) goes? Suddenly, thousands of people would see the beauty of these animals. While some would still recoil from snakes, others would make pieds the latest status symbol. We'd see celebrities buying up pieds everywhere they could find them. They'd appear on the "red carpet" carrying these poor snakes. The price would go through the roof.

Would the price stay up forever?

Personally, I don't think it would. Within a year, the "herd" would have moved on to other status symbols. A few people who bought these snakes when they were a fad would be won over to their beauty and would continue keeping and possibly breeding them. Most celebrities and rich people who bought them at $50,000 a piece would be selling them somewhere at prices not much higher than they are today. The price would stay high for a little while, but the long-term price might drop slightly because there would be a flurry of production. I'm not sure that the drop would be that much different from what it will be anyway.

It's not some magical manipulation. It's just a reflection of the individual decisions of individuals who decide what value they place on owning something that they don't have or selling something that they do have.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

tomsey Mar 28, 2006 09:43 PM

Bill (wftright) and Ben (crazydart),
Thank you very much for the time you spent explaining this to me. The information that you both provided was exactly what I needed to better understand how the "market" works.
Your posts are going to the printer.......I feel much better now.

Tomsey

wftright Mar 29, 2006 05:07 PM

I'm glad to help when I can.

All the best,

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

gailt Mar 28, 2006 10:59 PM

very well said .. thanks .. it's not easy explaining the "market", but you said exactly what I was thinking except for the Pitt/Jolie bit ... hahaha ...
-----
g...

_____

wftright Mar 29, 2006 05:08 PM

np
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

RamblinWreck Mar 29, 2006 05:44 AM

You don't have a long term viable "market" with a stagnant or slightly growing consumer base and an exponentially expanding supply. Add to that the "product" has a very long useful life. The days of easy money will soon be over. Don't get in over your head and just have fun with it. If you can't afford the latest morph, just wait until next year and buy a pair.

bpconnection Mar 29, 2006 09:42 AM

they had it as a "poisonous viper" or something too!
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Jeremy Conrad
_____________

...Can't...stop...must...get...more...balls...

wftright Mar 29, 2006 05:07 PM

Obviously, I'm not up on my movies. I think that to see a real effect on the market, the character would have to be a contemporary character. However, the public has responded strongly to movies in the past, and I suspect that they would do so again. That part is obviously speculation and a bit of a stretch, but I could see the right publicity driving the market higher.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

toshamc Mar 29, 2006 05:42 PM

....with the $100K worth of NERD BP morphs that Steve Irwin dumped on Conan Obriens desk would have triggered some new interest in BPs - but alas......

One thing I kind of remember from the Alexander movie - At some point in the movie she tells her son a story about the snake and I can't remember the specifics (maybe it had something to do with it being venomous or something like that) - I don't know - but I remember it being so non-ball python that it was ridiculously funny.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizard of unknown origin

snorelox Mar 29, 2006 09:09 PM

My experiance on first year selling pastels on KS.

I have been advertising my pastels since June on KS and at two to three show per month, my findings are even though people want to purchase the animal from you they what more to save a $1. I had 5 people agree to purchase animals at the "next show", then at the next show that inform me they purchased the animal for 100-200 less then I was asking from another vendor.
I saw the price of pastel males go from $1,000 to $600 in 2005 with hinsight I would have made more profit by selling in June for $900 than holding my price at $1,000 then trying to sale today went the market is at $600. Guess what 2006 hatchling are aready starting to be sold.

Second thought:
I read the forums in the past and talked to the big breeder the advise is "maintain your price" As a small breeder with limited sales of 5-20 animal per year on KS I have to lower my price in order to generate interest in my animals. Why? I think the variance in price vs. the large breeder price is the risk of doing business that the consummer is willing to accept in dealing with a new breeder.

falconsnakefarms Apr 05, 2006 10:13 PM

Supply & Demand has a few key principles: 1. The higher the price an animal starts out at the faster it will fall. 2. An increase is supply will always lower the price and increase the demand. 3. An increase in demand if supply stays the same will cause prices to increase. Not happening in the BP market right now. I am just getting a nice breeding collection together and I am very realistic about prices. Pastel will be $250 to $400 this year because of the codom trait. Super Pastels will be allot more reasonable than they are now. Albinos hatching will start at 1500 and there should be some better bargins if you hunt around torward the end of the year. Its like any business you have to speculate and build a financial model. You may only make your $$$ back in the first year (break even piont) and wait a couple years to show a profit. Patience is key and I think you will see allot of the "get rich" schemes frustrated and bailing out. Just my opionion base on experience.Good luck to all!

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