Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I picked up an 05 Black King this weekend. The deli cup was marked female Black King and I assumed it was a MBK.

I purchased it from a breeder at the Richmond show but the seller was a boid breeder and had brought a dozen assorted colubrids for a friend who could not attend.

After I made the (very resonable)purchase he mentioned how unusual "American" Black Kings were. When I questioned him about the subspecies, he couldn't remember but said it was a black california king not a MBK.

I can't post a pic yet but she is solid indigo black with no pattern other than some white on the bottom of her chin and about 11 in.

Anyone want to give me a "kingsnake identification for dummies" lesson?
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David Jobe
Education Curator
Mill Mountain Zoo
Roanoke, VA

Sounds like it is a melanistic Cal king from your description. There is no subspecies that I am aware of that is commonly referred to as an American black king. Some people call the black kingsnake (Lampropeltis g.nigra) the eastern black kingsnake though.

Phil
Official Black Kingsnake website

Thanks for the comments and the link. I am fairly sure it is not the eastern "nigra".

I am being lazy by asking here...I haven't done much homework on the subject. Is the MBK just a melanistic version of the Cal King? I haven't even checked range maps.

Thanks for helping.
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David Jobe
Education Curator
Mill Mountain Zoo
Roanoke, VA

my mexican black king is the same as you are describibg all black and no pattern with only 2 small white dots on her chin. i purchased mine from a reputable dealer and he says it is a mexican black king.
adam
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

are not the same snake.

Yours sounds like a MBK.

Kerby...

Many people believe that the MBK is a melanistic Desert King, l.g. splendida. The ranges of the Mexican Black King, Desert King, and California King overlap in extreme southern Arizona into northern Sonora, Mx. From your description, it sounds like you have an MBK.

Greg

If they are referring to melanistic as a simple recessive gene like in other species, then.... when you breed a "melanistic" (MBK) to another Desert King, then you should get all normal looking Desert Kings that are het for "melanistic", and... that's not what happens.

Kerby...

Ontogenetic melanism is not a recessive gene....it exhibits itself in many snakes in this manner (Black Ratsnakes, Eastern Hognose, etc) therefore a MBK is not just a melanistic splendida anymore than a Black ratsnake is just a melanistic Grey Rat. Many MBK are born with pattern that is obscured with age, this is exactly like Elaphe & Heterodon....

**Many MBK are born with pattern that is obscured with age, this is exactly like Elaphe & Heterodon....**

MBK still aren't Desert Kingsnakes. And MBK are not melanistic Desert Kingsnakes.

Kerby...

I am aware of this, I was simply stating that recessive melanism and ontogenetic melanism are two different things...Black rats aren't Grey rats because they are born with spiloides pattern either....I am agreeing with you. I thought it was important to point out that other species exhibit the exact same thing and are still considered to be subspecies...at least black ratsnakes are.

Horridus@aol.com

The nice MBK's that were brought into the states for breeding, came from outside a town call Ortiz. There are textbook L.g.splendida there as well as the black morph.

As you know, in southern az. there are several places where there are L.g.splendida, and a black morph.

Dudes and dudettes, if you take the black morph and keep breeding them together(inbreeding), you streamline the morph. This is what we have now. A streamlined black morph of L.g.splendida.

As far as I know, The desert king is L.g.splendida. So there you have it. MBK's are desert kings or a morph of desert kings. Cheers

On one hand you have the herpetologists and taxonomists...on the other hand you have Frank....

Call em' what you wish....I'll go with what is accepted in the reptile industry.

IF MEXICAN BLACK KINGSNAKES WERE DESERT KINGSNAKES....THEN THEY WOULDN'T CALL THEM MEXICAN BLACK KINGSNAKES...AND THEY WOULDN'T HAVE DIFFERENT SCIENTIFIC NAMES (unless you are Frank)

Cheers bro

Back to breeding cal kings (or are they banded and striped desert kings???) LOL

Kerby...

That will call what your saying is a MBK. No taxo in his right mind will name anything from a long history of captive breeding as a wild species or subspecies.

Also the history is the history, Thats where the original ones came from. And thats what they are.

What is the SN for MBK and how old is it? is it still in current fashion? What was the extent of the original study that named them in the first place?

Did you know that the study that named pyros used 55(I had a look at them)individuals from their entire range. Often using only one individual from a mountain range, rarely more. How the heck accurate is that? Surely that understanding is naive when you seen 55 pyros from one canyon, muchless a whole mountain range, muchless their entire range.

Thats was a huge problem, no animals to work with. Of course now, no one cares, there just types of kingsnakes and there are tons of them.

Sir, get with it, time goes on. Things change. Some of those old names were from one individual animal, without a exact locality. But I guess if it suits you to use olllllllddddddd information, get on with your bad self. I will have to call you old Kerby, hahahahahahahahaha

If it ever rains again, you could come on down and have a look and see for yourself. Cheers

>>What is the SN for MBK and how old is it? is it still in current fashion? What was the extent of the original study that named them in the first place?

Frank,

Lampropeltis getula nigrata is the name, and it is still currently recognized. I don't agree with many "subspecies" that are recognized but if you don't think they are valid....do something about it...a paper could easily be submitted by someone to sink this ssp. if they are in fact a variant of splendida. But right now....that's what they are. I know that examples from captivity wouldn't be considered for a study but the snake referred to above most closely fits the spp. nigrita.

Horridus@aol.com

You are not allowed to call me an old man

Please respect your youngsters!

Fat and bald would be more accurate.

I am aware that reclassifications occur periodically, and justly so. More are overdue...but I was referring to the current classification from Stebbins Western Field Guide which list three different sub-species (California Kingsnake, Western Black Kingsnake, Desert Kingsnake). I was not referring to captive bred snakes.

Kerby...

For both of you. Are the animals in the cages, the animals called nigrita? Or did you just pick a picture in a book. These kings are black and those kings are black????

The animals in question(original breeding stock) did come from Ortiz and in Ortiz, there are splendida. The same goes for areas in southern az. there are both splendida and black kings living and interbreeding. In these areas they are the same. Period.

Or are you saying, the individuals that hatch out all black are nigrita and the eggs that hatch out with pattern, are splendida, FROM A SINGLE CLUTCH. Hmmmmmmm an interesting question and an interesting concept. So how would that work with taxonomy? So what would those individuals be called, that start out with pattern then lose it? Splendida to start with, then later turn into nigritis? If you preserved them before they had time to change, what would they be called? Pre-nigritis? hahahahahahahahahaha or the individuals with faint pattern, semi-nigritis? hahahahahahahahaha get it? Cheers

When I say that "many people" believe MBK's are melanistic desert kings, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm one of those people. I'm referring to a thread on this forum from awhile back where many folks, FR among them I think, proposed this theory. They said the almost pure black snakes were a result of line breeding and not similar to MBK's found in the wild. I do know for a fact that there are many melanistic kings from Tucson south, and they show a desert king pattern underneath. Here's one.

Greg

Another shot of the above king. This one may just be a melanistic desert king, but it showed some similarities to a cal king and MBK. Found on the far east side of Tucson. You can see the faint desert king pattern underneath.

Greg

I know that there have been specimens found down in southern Arizona that display characteristics of the three that occur down there. (Cal King, Desert King, Mexican Black King). IMO they are all three separate sub-species, but have bred together in the wild. There have been a few posts in the last 8-10 years (life of the Internet as we know it) with pics of specimens found that display this.

I just disagree with the comment that MBK are just melanistic Desert Kings. Of course so do taxonomists.

Back to the original thread on this.... It is probably a MBK based on the description.

Kerby...

A nigrita is simply a melanistic splendida, and a holdbrooki is just a splendida with more spotting between the crossbands. Calkings are just desert kings with bands or stripes as well. But they are all valid taxa.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

They are related, but to say that Cal Kings are just Desert Kings with bands and stripes doesn't fly.

My last comment on this.

Back to breeding my cal kings - not my desert kings with bands and striped LOL

Kerby...

On what basis would you consider these "valid taxa" then....if you think they are all variants of the same snake???

Confused.

Does it lok like this?


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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

It looks just like that but does not have any white or markings at all other than a small white marking on the chin.
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David Jobe
Education Curator
Mill Mountain Zoo
Roanoke, VA

I was at the Richmond show, and I saw the ones you were speaking about. Without a doubt, they were not nigra. I went no further with asking about them, as I just figured they were Mexican Black Kings.

Steve

The white chin patch is very common with MBKs. Blacks from the KY region have much more white and pattern.

I'm unsure about a melanistic Cal King, but it just does not sound like it.

I think that you got the "real McCoy".

i have three mbk and from your post i would have to say it sounds like a mex black king. two of mine are jet black the bellys are indigo (rainbow) in the sun light. the third one i have is starting to turn a dark chocolate color.but they all have one to three dots on the chin that are white

this is the one turning dark brown does anyone have a mbk turnig dark brown i like it!
thanks jason