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Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

SCARY SUBJECT CHILDREN SNAKES = DSS

XtremeXteriors Mar 29, 2006 02:18 PM

So my GF goes to the doctor and the doctor starts asking all kinds of questions and somehow my ball pythons come up in conversation, they talk some more and so on and so forth.well today I get a bomb dropped on me that the doctor consulted with DSS and the doctor IS filing a DSS case against us because we own "snakes" because we have a 1 yr old child and a 4 year old.so needless to say im very upset right now.has ANYONE ever been in a situation like this.I mean im going crazy right now my son is the only one who handles these snakes besides me and I waited until he was at least 2 to introduce him to them and I KEEEEEEEEEP his hands washed especially in that room.I have had snakes (all ball pythons) from b4 he was even born,and it was NEVER an issue until now.

so now I have put a lockable doorknob magnetic entry alarms on the door to the snake room, a bottom door rubber gasket,im even printing out the rodentpro literature about why dead rodents are better than live (no fecal or urine matter,less chance of contracting a hazardous disease) to have some kind of backup for this terrible situation plus I get all the rubber exam gloves that I need and I use them.My snake room is super clean i use all disposable water dishes and I keep germ-x everywhere in my house regardless. any other info would be SOOOOOOO HELPFULL

Replies (49)

toshamc Mar 29, 2006 02:26 PM

Exactly what grounds doe he have to go to the DSS?

LOL that is just ridiculous.

Period.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizard of unknown origin

XtremeXteriors Mar 29, 2006 02:31 PM

I have LESS than NO idea

toshamc Mar 29, 2006 02:38 PM

Sounds like a classic case of ignorant paranoia. A phone call to said Dr. and an educational talk might be all that is needed. My OBGYN and Pediatrician are well aware that my kids are exposed to reptiles on a daily basis - they also know that I am fully aware of the potential hazards (ie samonella, etc) and that I take the proper precautions.

Kind of ironic since the last time I took my son in for his check up -- was the night after I'd gotten bit by one of my snakes and he made me show the Dr. so she could 'take a look at it".

Find out what the concern is then go from there.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizard of unknown origin

havic Mar 29, 2006 02:42 PM


-----
1.2.0 ball python (aragorn, arwen,`eowyn)
1.0.0 100% het pied (frodo)
1.0.0 columbian boa (squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
0.0.2 whites tree frog (trevor, kirmet)
0.0.5 pacific green tree frogs
3.2.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy
"snakes are kind of like potato chips, you cant have just one"

bps516 Mar 30, 2006 07:19 AM

I would personally hold off calling the Dr in regards to this. If he called DSS so quickly he may call the police out if he feels that the talk/corrospondence is threatening (and it sounds like he jumps to conclusions quickly). Talk to DSS and give them information on the snakes that you have and request it added into the case file and forwarded to the Dr both.
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Bendig Mar 29, 2006 02:48 PM

I agree with Tosha, a phone call and some educational literature may be all that your doctor needs, also I think you may benefit by finding a new doctor. One that understands you and your family a little better. Me, personally? I would have to drop a ton of literature in the Doc's lap, inform him that I'll be looking for a new physician and that I'd like ALL of his patients to know about his decision to make an uniformed, irrational & downright uneducated accusation to DSS. That won't really help anyone, but it would make me feel a whole lot better and maybe make the Doc feel a little bit bad about himself.

havic Mar 29, 2006 02:38 PM

We had a something like that happen to us, and we have 3 girls ranging from 4 years to 7 years. And when they stopped by to inspect our set up all she wanted to see was where they were kept and if the kids could gain access to them by themselves.
and the answer is no they cannot. We keep them in our bedroom and the door to our room has a lock on it. All the cages have locks on them. We did this long before they came by so in our own minds we knew that our kids were safe first and our snakes were safe as well. She saw that everything was in order and they were in no danger in no way (the kids) she was satisfied. This came about the same way almost. I don't know if you or any body remembers when we went to our daughters school do a presentation. Well 1 of them at the school had a problem with this. And took action lol when they were the ones that asked us to come. Hope this turns out good for you. Keep us posted. Hope this helps... Brian
-----
1.2.0 ball python (aragorn, arwen,`eowyn)
1.0.0 100% het pied (frodo)
1.0.0 columbian boa (squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
0.0.2 whites tree frog (trevor, kirmet)
0.0.5 pacific green tree frogs
3.2.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy
"snakes are kind of like potato chips, you cant have just one"

Horridus Mar 29, 2006 02:56 PM

I am so stunned at this kind of intrusion into your life.....I don't know what to say....Sent you a message. Good luck.

Christy Talbert Mar 29, 2006 03:40 PM

Make sure your house in in order, and start looking for a new doctor.

Tex540 Mar 29, 2006 03:55 PM

1. find a new doctor
2. File a complaint of a boundry violation with the AMA or any other organization he may be goverened by.
3. sue for malpractice since he is in effect giving medical advice (by his actions he is saying that you should not have snakes) in an area that he is not certified in.

It galls me to no end the lengths that these doctors will go to so they can intrude into your personal life in the name of "safety", when they don't know crap on the subject but still expect you to take their word on what is safe for your family...just because they are a doctor. Did he ask about swimming pools? buckets? cleaning supplies? those things kill lots of kids each year, but there are no anti-pool or anti bucket organizations conducting safety campaigns. This is a real sore spot for me after hearing horror stories on some of the gun forums that I frequent. Doctors kill more people then all of those things combined. Wanna keep your kids and your family safe? Keep them away from doctors!

jep_ruby22 Mar 30, 2006 06:47 AM

It's not really a boundary violation. When a psychiatrist or doctor or social worker is made aware of something like this with the knowledge that there are kids in the house, they are required by law to report this and look into it. Next to doctors, I would say social workers & then people in the psychology field have the strictest code of ethics and regulations of any profession...and if they don't follow these regulations, they could be out of a job.

Louis can't really sue for malpractice-this wasn't really considered 'giving medical advice'-again, by law of profession, a report just had to be made to make sure things are safe for the kids. What if this could be a guy who's just getting into snake breeding and isn't so knowledgeable yet about all the precautions he could take and everything involving the snakes themselves and everything involved in the breeding project-a newbie, per say? The doctor wasn't aware of this, the extent of Louis's knowledge, and a report just had to be made. Depending on other criteria of a doctor visit-and the particular kind of doctor/professional a person is seeing (if it's a counselor, for example)-a factor like this may be important/influential in regard to other aspects of the overall situation.

You have to remember that the general public isn't the fondest of snakes...and situations like this likely don't arise often, so since Louis has almost 30 snakes in his apartment, they just want to make sure the kids are/will be safe since they're so young, esp. since Louis is the primary handler of the snakes & he isn't at home all the time due to work, etc. All it would take is for Louis to educate the DSS worker, doctor, and whoever else a bit-give them some background/info. on the snakes & all the proper precautions he's taken for both his kids' and the snakes' safety and health.

He should be fine-he meets the criteria the DSS worker would have to check (he just might want to move the incubator he made since it's in his kitchen area...but he's not even using it yet)...he keeps everything clean, well-maintained, the snakes are all locked into one room, and the kids aren't even around the snakes unless supervised, and even then he's really careful.

Again, just part of the professional's job. Rather than bash these kind of people, just think how there Are irresponsible people and bad situations out there that these particular doctors/workers straighten out/make better-and a lot of people, many kids included, are better off because of the steps they've taken. Louis is just one of 'the good guys' in the mix, but nothing to worry about with him-just standard protocol, so this should pass just fine and they'll move on to cases where they're really needed.

jep_ruby22 Mar 30, 2006 08:17 AM

I would also just like to say that I agree with some of the viewpoints shared on here-even some of the strong-minded ones, to some extent or another, but I would just like to add that we need to make sure we don't fall into doing what some here are accusing others of doing-casting judgments without being more knowledgeable, especially if it's not in a very tasteful/tactful manner. Just as doctors, counselors, and DSS workers may not be very knowledgeable about snakes and all involved with the topic, some here are not very knowledgeable about the depths of such professions.

So a bit of learning could take place on both sides, and rather than form a separate offense on the issue, snake/reptile lovers-even some here-could take initiative to share knowledge. This is obviously a subject that these professionals need to know more about in light of the present and future, and for any cases that may come their way, since there's a large group of people out there who own snakes and other reptiles for both pet and business purposes & this population is growing. What better way to handle things well than to work together regarding an issue and put the foundation there that needs to be there, and keep that working relationship to share information as further/new details are brought to light? That would alleviate ignorance, misunderstandings, and problems in the future-on both sides.

None of that was said harshly, by the way.

snakebstr Apr 03, 2006 06:50 PM

People just want to get into someone elses business...Bottom Line. I once rented a house where the landlord said she didn't care that I had snakes, But she then told our neighbor which was her old neighbor who then told her friend that lived 4-5 house down from us that we had snake, So the lady that lived 4-5 houses down from us was deathly scared of snakes so they called Animal Control and told the we had huge snakes, venomous snakes, and had them in the yard and that we were selling snakes directly from my house. They also told us that we were not supposed to be selling snakes out of our house because it was a housing distric and not a business distric. I NEVER even took the snakes outside and was always real careful when bringing new snakes in. But anyway to make a long long story short. We had Animal Control coming to our door all the time checking for the venomous and other stuff. Then I decided to pay the neighbors a visit to make them stop complaining, And they finally did after I told them that if they kept telling LIES on us I would SUE them. So after a talk with Animal control and and the complaner things finally settled down and then WE MOVED.. People just need to mind their own business, That is why this world is the way it is, Because people like that Doctor, he would be getting a letter from a lawyer on top of one from me.

ChrisOz Mar 29, 2006 04:29 PM

of my snakes just because she is scard of them. My wifes exhusband put in a complaint.

XtremeXteriors Mar 29, 2006 04:58 PM

what did you do,this whole situation is making me uneasy

havic Mar 29, 2006 06:13 PM

Hey don't beat your self up on this. I would say just make sure all you ducks are in a row. Wich I think you do already but just double check. because like I said in my other post that they just wanted to see how and where they were housed. And that the kids did not have access to them without us there. Keep us posted and call that lawyer. hope for the best for you.
-----
1.2.0 ball python (aragorn, arwen,`eowyn)
1.0.0 100% het pied (frodo)
1.0.0 columbian boa (squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
0.0.2 whites tree frog (trevor, kirmet)
0.0.5 pacific green tree frogs
3.2.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy
"snakes are kind of like potato chips, you cant have just one"

Albey Mar 29, 2006 05:01 PM

This is the URL for Phil Esbenshade. He is a former Skate Board champ, a former Herp Keeper, had a website that specialized in Geckos, did websites for the Herp trade, and now is a Lawyer. He has a specialty in Herp Law and related issues. If I were you I would contact him. I am sure he would love nothing better than suing the he#$ out of that idiot for gross malpractice.

www.esbenshade.com/services.html

Good luck,
Albey

XtremeXteriors Mar 29, 2006 05:35 PM

I dont know HOW MUCH this may help if at all but i found it under the south carolina legislature

(4) Animals: The following requirements apply in regard to animals:
(a) Healthy animals which present no apparent threat to the health and safety of the children shall
be permitted, provided they are cleaned properly housed, fed and cared for and have had required
vaccinations, as appropriate. Live animals shall be excluded from areas where food for human
consumption is stored, prepared or served;
(b) Animals shall not be permitted if a child in the room or area is allergic to the specific type of
animal;
(c) Animal litter and waste shall not be accessible to children; and
(d) Reptiles and rodents shall not be accessible to children without adult supervision.

wftright Mar 29, 2006 06:34 PM

One of the things that our society must do if we are to survive is take certain groups of people down about twenty notches. These groups include doctors, judges, and social workers. All three of these groups have fallen into believing that they are elites who should be ruling over the rest of us. There was a time when people like this would receive a good thrashing and would learn to mind their own business. Sadly, in the name of "safety" and "for the children," we allow them to run over the rest of us.

You aren't likely to have any success suing the doctor. Idiot legislators writing laws to appease idiot constituents who want all kinds of "protection for the children" have written laws in a way that protects arrogant busybodies but not innocent citizens. In a just world, you'd be allowed to sue for malpractice and slander. The doctor would have his name dragged through the mud in public and would learn to mind his own business and keep his prejudices to himself.

Your best bet at this point is to have your girlfriend find a new doctor and make clear to him that his stupidity and arrogance caused him to lose a patient. Both of you should tell as many people as possible about the situation to hurt his practice as much as possible. If you were thinking of changing your insurance carrier and your other insurance option doesn't include him in the plan, you should make the change and let your insurer know that his actions are part of what caused you to change. He may be protected from lawsuits, but if the insurance companies are afraid to deal with him, you'll have hurt him in a way that counts.

You should see a lawyer about dealing with the DSS. Too many bureaucrats love to mistreat everyday people. Most of them aren't this way. Most are just regular people trying to make a living and do what's right, but enough are drawn to these jobs because they enjoy using the power of the government to hurt people. (The BTK killer was the perfect example.) What they don't like is attention from lawyers. You don't want to make the situation with the bureaucrat confrontational too soon, but you want him/her to know that you aren't interested in being pushed around.

People hear of cases where children are severely abused but continually returned to the parents who abuse them. When they complain, the court system replies that the laws make it very hard to separate a child from abusive parents permanently. If they aren't paying attention, people don't understand why removing a child is so hard.

The answer is in stories like this one. For every heartbreaking case of a child abused, there's another heartbreaking case of an innocent family torn apart because some self-righteous busybody doesn't like how the family is living and tries to use the power of the government against that family. When confronted with the reality that their children could be taken because the neighbor doesn't like some aspect of their lives, most parents will start calling their legislators and insist that the government not have too much power to remove children.

Is there a solution? Yes, the solution starts with laws that make it harder for the bureaucrats and busybodies to cause the least inconvenience to people. Before DSS or some similar alphabet soup organization can even contact a family, they should be required to have a strong probable cause that real harm has occurred. The fact that someone has snakes, or guns, or big dogs, or doesn't take their kids to church, or takes their kids to church too often, or doesn't let them go outside enough, or lets them go outside too often, or any other of thousands of personal choices should not be strong enough evidence by itself. People who make complaints without this evidence should be thanked for their concern and given no further information. If they press the issue, they should be cited for harassment. Only if there is real evidence of harm should the bureaucrats be allowed to ask for a warrant and begin questioning the family. These steps would protect innocent families and give them the confidence to allow the government to take the next step.

The next step would be a streamlined process to remove children from parents who hurt them. When a child is burned, beaten, molested or harmed in some real way, the parent should receive no more than one or two chances to change his or her ways. At that point, the parent should go to jail and the child should be placed for adoption.

Of course, those who like causing trouble for other people or who profit from these activies would never support this kind of change. They are having too much fun thinking that their every ignorant, self-righteous opinion should bring the authorities on those of whom they disapprove. If I ever come to believe that I have only six months left to live, those people would do well to stay clear of my path.

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

cas0914 Mar 29, 2006 07:07 PM

np

XtremeXteriors Mar 29, 2006 07:18 PM

DSS= DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES

cas0914 Mar 29, 2006 07:25 PM

Thanks

wftright Mar 29, 2006 07:37 PM

Different states have different names for these bureaucracies. In some states, I think they call it Child Protective Services (CPS). I've heard some of the other abbreviations, but I can't remember them right now. When I first read the post, I asked the same question that you did because DSS didn't mean anything to me either. I figured that's what it had to be from the context. You might have a different agency name in your state.

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

nita Mar 29, 2006 07:19 PM

specially with that last sentence!
-----
Nita Hamilton
--------------
Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

tex540 Mar 29, 2006 07:26 PM

Well said, Bill!

LadyOhh Mar 29, 2006 07:44 PM

Admittedly there are people out there that use their powers a little too much (power hungry), but honestly, I think this doctor is trying, in his eyes, to help. Power hungry and nosy people are everywhere.

Now I'm not getting on a soapbox or anything, but I think that people have good intentions, but may be misinformed. So educate!

Good luck, X... I don't think anything is going to come of it. Just keep doing what you are doing, keep your kids safe, and be well.
-----
-Ohh, what a Lady-

Balls for Life, Baby!

www.heathersherps.com

wftright Mar 29, 2006 09:10 PM

I have no doubt that in his own mind this doctor thinks that he's trying to help. All ignorant, self-righteous people believe that they are only helping. This doctor believing that he is helping only makes the matter worse. There's a quote from either C.S. Lewis or Daniel Webster that says something to the effect that the worst tyrant is the one who thinks he's acting for your own good. The person who is just being mean because being mean amuses him may eventually get tired and go away. He may eventually develop a conscience and change his ways. The tyrant who believes that he's acting for your good will never be curbed by his own conscience and will be diligent to continue his wrongful actions to the extent that his own self-righteousness makes him persistent.

(I have two quotes on this topic. One is by C.S. Lewis and the other by Daniel Webster. I can't remember where I put them on my computer, but I have them at work. I may try to bring the real quotes home tomorrow.)

While I'd love to believe that this doctor could be educated, the evidence is not in favor of that hope. If the doctor were willing to be educated, he would have questioned this woman more closely about the snakes and about the children. He would have been man enough to state his concerns directly to her. He would have tried to learn whether a problem really existed. He did none of these things. Instead, he went to the power of the government and sought to use that power against these people who happen to be living in a way that he doesn't like.

Education is wonderful. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't have two master's degrees; I wouldn't read a great deal outside my career field; and I wouldn't listen to friends tell stories of places that they have been and things they've done. However, no amount of education will give anyone the answer to everything. Because of that fact, we as a society need to stress the "first do no harm" mindset. That mindset began with the medical profession, and in this case, this doctor is ignoring that principle. Yes, this doctor needs to be educated about snakes and the risks and rewards of keeping reptiles as pets. However, his more dangerous ignorance is his ignorance of his own limits. If he continues to hold that attitude that he knows best and is justified in going to the government every time someone lives in a way that he doesn't like, he will continue to be dangerous. Someone might educate him about snakes so that he doesn't repeat this mistake, but until he learns that he doesn't know what's best for everyone, he'll keep repeating this mistake in other ways. The problem isn't that this doctor is ignorant about snakes. The problem is that he's ignorant about his own ignorance.

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

havic Mar 29, 2006 09:18 PM


-----
1.2.0 ball python (aragorn, arwen,`eowyn)
1.0.0 100% het pied (frodo)
1.0.0 columbian boa (squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
0.0.2 whites tree frog (trevor, kirmet)
0.0.5 pacific green tree frogs
3.2.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy
"snakes are kind of like potato chips, you cant have just one"

wftright Mar 29, 2006 09:38 PM

Thanks
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

LadyOhh Mar 29, 2006 09:49 PM

If that is how you feel, maybe you should take it up with him instead of continuing this diatribe. I think you are generalizing a bit too much..
I'm not sure why you are so passionatly opposed to this rather uneducated mistake (which may be an understatement) on his part, but honestly, I think this has gone a bit far from the actual point of the post.

I have nothing against you, so please don't take this to offense, but let it rest...
-----
-Ohh, what a Lady-

Balls for Life, Baby!

www.heathersherps.com

wftright Mar 29, 2006 10:38 PM

If that is how you feel, maybe you should take it up with him instead of continuing this diatribe.

I've done enough online debate to recognize this statement. It means, "I can't answer the substance of what you've said, but I still don't like it. Therefore, I'll label your comments with a perjorative term and pretend that you shouldn't have made them." You're welcome to disagree with me. That's the beauty of a free country. However, the point of a discussion forum is to discuss. If you don't like this subject or just don't like me, feel free to skip these posts. I skip posts that I don't like every day. It's just part of making choices.

I'm not sure why you are so passionatly opposed to this rather uneducated mistake (which may be an understatement) on his part, but honestly, I think this has gone a bit far from the actual point of the post.

I'm passionately opposed to an ignorant person threatening someone else with the power of government when the person being threatened has done nothing wrong. Those kinds of actions are worth passionate opposition. The failure to oppose those actions is dangerous to a free society.

The original point of the post is that the doctor's actions are wrong and the victim of those wrong actions is seeking solutions. In exploring and understanding the depth of the ignorance and arrogance that led to the doctor's decision, maybe we can help this person find answers that will let him stop this needless intrusion into his life. In that sense, everything I have said is directly related to point of the post.

I have nothing against you, so please don't take this to offense, but let it rest...

Eight or ten other people have expressed the same thoughts that I expressed with mostly the same passion that I feel. Do you just want me to stop me fromm discussing this issue or do want to silence them as well? If the subject makes you uncomfortable or you just don't want to read about it, please skip this thread and go to others. No one's forcing you to consider this issue. If you don't like me, don't read my posts. I'm not offended by someone refusing to read what I have to say. I'm not offended by someone disagreeing with me. I am offended when someone who doesn't want to address an issue acts as if I shouldn't address the issue. That's a dangerous mindset.

Yes, I am genuinely and passionately disturbed by what has been reported here. I am likewise genuinely and passionately disturbed by your attitude that because we disagree and I answer your comments, that I should just be quiet and go away. I don't want you to be offended, but this issue should not be dismissed lightly.

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

johnavilla Mar 30, 2006 01:41 PM

You rock.
-----
I have Balls!

wftright Mar 30, 2006 05:39 PM

Thank you very much for those kind words. That thought made me feel good but also made me chuckle because the following is the tag line that I use on my signature for my e-mails at work.

I should be a better man if I did what you advise, but I shouldn't be quite George Edward Challenger. There are plenty of better men, my dear, but only one G. E. C. So make the best of him.

- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The Lost World

Needless to say, this tag line isn't the most career-enhancing thing to put on my e-mails at work, but folks tolerate me pretty well.

Thanks,

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

bps516 Mar 30, 2006 01:58 PM

After rereading your statement I really wanted to throw in my 1.5 cents on the matter.

"be thanked for their concern"

That there is the key to it all. We need to make sure that people can come forward with their concerns. I can not understand how it got taken forward from that point. A neighbor had drug parties every weekend (it was so bad our cats were getting high if they went outside). We dealt with the police and DSS since they had a 6 month old baby in the house. We called and called, nothing ever got done. They came out when the police raided it twice and demanded that someone else care for the baby for 30 days at one point. They finally moved, God knows if the child is still alive. And yet here is someone that a) takes their children to the dr in the first place - perfect example that you care about them. b) Cares about their snakes enough to be on this board. c) Has taken ever step possible to make sure that the kids don't hurt the snakes (i think that is really the bigger risk) and DSS jumps on them?

Sad.
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

wftright Mar 30, 2006 06:02 PM

Good points, and thanks for your reply. I've dealt with these kinds of questions on political forums, but I've tried to avoid them on this forum. (I need an escape from political/social thoughts sometimes.)

In fairness, we don't know yet how the DSS is acting in this matter. They haven't yet come down on anyone, but I'm deeply disturbed that the whole thing is an issue. I think it's wrong that someone would have to open his home when there is no evidence that a child is being harmed and no probable cause that this evidence could exist.

The situation is doubly heartbreaking because of situations like the one that you related. I'll avoid any more preaching on the topic, but as you said, it's very sad. I worry that we have lost some of the discretion that a society needs in order to remain a free society.

Thanks again for your comments,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

wftright Mar 30, 2006 06:07 PM

In one of my replies, I said that I'd grab a couple of quotes that I think are relevant to the issue. I found them today, and here they are.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C. S. Lewis

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

nita Mar 29, 2006 07:10 PM

I'd be going to a different doctor, one less naive. To simply call DSS because you have snakes?? What an idiot, now if you had brought your kids in with salmonella poisoning or something and then they found out you had snakes and were concerned that would be different but obviously just having the snakes shouldn't be a problem. Ignorant people.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

Kennyscott Mar 29, 2006 09:27 PM

If you are comfortable that your ball pythons pose no threat to your children, to me the real question would be -once DSS is involved, will they involve animal control.? You first need to check into your local municipal codes to find out what the restrictions are-if any-for your city. If you find none, drop an anonymous-new-person-in-town call to your animal control and ask them if ball pythons are allowed. If they say yes-and you have your snakes locked up away from your children, you have absolutely NOTHING to worry about. If DSS does investigate, you can let them know that your ball pythons are allowed by city code (as long as they are), and are quality investment animals, which will provide your children a better future! Dump the doctor!

nita Mar 30, 2006 11:05 AM

That DSS could be just as ignorant and uninformed as this doctor was and then what happens. They give you a week to remove all the animals from the home or they take your kids away?? Unless there is a problem in the first place there is no reason to involve the DSS. Many people know I have snakes as pets and that I breed them, do my cages have locks? No. Is the room they are in kept locked? No. Why because my children are educated about snakes and the safety required when handling them and at 5yrs old they are never left unattended anywhere so they couldn't get to them without my knowledge.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

dirty_harry Mar 29, 2006 09:44 PM

This doctor had no right to contact DSS. His/her fears were solely grounded in ignorance and fear of snakes. I am surprised that this has not come up yet, but is this doctor aware of what HIPAA is? It is a federal law that provides civil and criminal charges when your healthcare info is erroneously disseminated. (Now hear me out for a second) Chances are you'd probably never win the case, or at best you'd be awarded nominal damages. HOWEVER, this could be a great way to set a legal precedent for future instances. I would reccommend finding a lawyer familiar with HIPAA (really any tort lawyer would probably do)... specifically one that operates on commission only (e.g. they are only paid if they win, so you never spend a penny). This doctor had absolutely no legitamate reason to react the way he did, and I personally find it irresponsible for him to act this way when he should know better. Come to think of it, you might actually have a good case. Only one way to find out....
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Deserve's got nothing to do with it! -(Unforgiven)

rwoodyer Mar 29, 2006 11:15 PM

I hate it when people feel they need to try and control others actions. I would do everything I could think of to make sure this doctor gets the point that what he did was not OK. Talk to your insurance company, talk to other patients you know, make flyers, do what ever it takes to return the favor for the doctor.

But, also good luck with the DSS
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

Kingofspades Mar 30, 2006 02:06 AM

I would bet money on the miseducated theory.

Two reasons.

1: When someone hears the word python, they think 20 ft. MONSTER snakes. Every single person (other than my reptile savvy friends) that I have told I have ball pythons have asked me "Those get really big, right?"
That's when I explain that they generally top off at 5 feet.

2. I have had MANY MANY people ask me if both corn snakes AND ball pythons are poisonous.

Too many people associate the word poison with EVERY snake they see.

It's a shame really.

OC-balls Mar 30, 2006 04:41 PM

You took the words right out of my mouth!
Ken
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1.0 Albino Ball Python (Apu)
0.5 Normal Ball Pythons (Norma, Nova, Nala, Nimeesha, Nyoka)

1.1 Argentine B/W Tegus (Draco and Drucilla)
0.1 Columbian B/W Tegu (Diablo)
1.0 Black Throat Monitor (Razor)
1.0 Desert Tortoise (Tubbs) from Tortoise Rescue
1.0 Boxer (Shadow)
0.1 Feline (CK)
1.0 Memory of my Redtail Boa (Mo) which passed away after 28 years


www.ocballs.net
kvandoren@ocballs.net

Nisa Mar 30, 2006 07:42 AM

One thing to also check out is what would be considered proper storage of your food items. If the rodents have their own freezer you should be okay, but if you keep them in with people food that might cause a problem. Different states have different health codes.
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3.3 Normal Ball pythons (Hoss, Little Man, Adam, Helen, and the 2 new girls who gets named when they eat)
0.2 Snow corns (Legolas, Eurydice)
1.0 Amel het charcoal (Orlando)
1.0 Hypo het anery het Amel
0.1 Amel het Stripe
0.1 Normal Cal King snake (Sidhe which sounds exactly like "she"
0.0.1 GTP (Kissy the Red)
1.1 Haitian Boa (Enkil and Akasha)

And bunches of furry pets

morphed Mar 30, 2006 08:18 AM

I know of many people that have had nosy neighbors or crazy relatives call them in for having to many snakes. If for any reason your insurance company finds out, and you do own your own house, they can drop your home owners insurance like a bad habit. I know a few people that have had their policies cancelled b/c they owned more then 30 snakes and the insurance company found out. Just a heads up to any one who owns their own house and alot of herps. I have always been very careful when recieveing shipments of rodents and such, most of my neighbors know what i do, but there are a few in the neighbor hood i choose not to tell.
Kim
Good luck in your fight with DSS. I am sure you will win this, you sound like you have everything in order.

jmartin104 Mar 30, 2006 08:35 AM

This is one of the reasons I'm very secretive around anyone knowing what I have or how many I have. You don't want to make yourself a target to ANYBODY. My kids know not to talk about our animals.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

morphed Mar 30, 2006 09:15 AM

I agree. I dont like people knowing what i have, i only take very few people into the snake rooms, mostly personal friends from the trade who have houses that look similar to mine .. lol.
Kim

mikebell Mar 30, 2006 09:02 AM

My doctor knows I have lots of snakes, I know she has lots of cats. I was being discharged from the hospital and was to finish my IV antibiotic treatments at home, when the Dr. said I have to ask about the cleanliness of your home, since you have all of those snakes. I told her not to worry, they were in other rooms and all in cages, it wasn't like I had cats all over the house including counter tops.

A clean locked snake room is less of a hazard than many homes I have seen with multiple "normal" pets that are not cleaned up after.

ncary Mar 30, 2006 09:21 AM

Louis,

Let me know how things turn out man!

Nate
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1.2 Normal Bps (Ka, Khayli, Monster)
1.1 100% Het Albino (Mr Stash, Bahari)
.1 Lemon Pastel (Penenlope)
.1 Red Blood Python (Qermez)

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