Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just had one of the worst days of my life. I'll try to make this short. About 3 or 4 months ago one of my babies from 05 started showing sings of IBD. Head shaking when I was picking her up, star gazing, and after I would put her back she would raise her head and then it would fall backwards. She had a hard time eating and was not growing at all. I moved all three of my 05 babies to my girlfriends place just to be safe. I took her to my vet and he said she might have a RI so I gave her antibiotics. It didn't help. Her sister and the other baby I have seem to be thriving and are 100% healthy. I talked to my vet a week ago and told him she wasn't growing and the star gazing was getting worse. He told me even if it wasn't IBD she would most likely not ever get better so we agreed the best thing to do would be to put her down and get her tested. I took her in today, signed the form, and he injected her. He told me it would take 10 to 15 min. for her to pass on. I asked if he could give me a quick lesson on some of the organs and he said that was fine. Well, 5 min. later he came back into the room and she was not moving. He proceded to cut and open and I just couldn't believe my eyes, HER HEART WAS STILL BEATING. It was just awful to see my baby snake lying on her back, cut open, and her heart still beating 100%. He told me she was dead, she just didn't know it yet. All I could think of was those people who have surgery and they wake up in the middle of it but can't move or speak. I'm so upset right now I can barely see straight. Why couldn't he just wait the 10 to 15 min he told me it would take!!! He stared to show me everything and I just couldn't stop looking at her beating heart. Then to top it off blood started coming out of her mouth all over the table. It was just awful. Besides seeing my snake in that state, my main concern is that they will not be able to take an accuate test of IBD. He wasn't able to put her in the jar with liquid to send her off to the lab b/c he said it would be a bloody mess but I could wait for the heart to stop. I just had to leave. But please if you know anything about this let me know if you think the test will still be able to be performed. If anyone has a snake put down please make sure that your vet waits until he/she still completely dead so you don't have to see what I just saw.
Michael Burton

Hey, Michael,
I don't know about the IBD test, but I've had to have a snake put down before and I understand. I'm really sorry you lost her and even more so that you had to be subjected to such a horrible experience. Hang in there, man!
It really sounds like you did the right thing...though I know that may not make you feel too much better right now.
I'm really sorry...
Aaron

OH my God. Dude I am really sorry...
I would of reacted a bit different, probably will be in jail as we speak. To me it sounds like he made a mistake. But them again I was not there. But if I witness that I would of been going crazy.
Sorry for your loss. Man that is really %^&$!*&
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Joel Pretz

Sorry to hear bout ur loss - but I'm gonna have to agree w/ JOE. I would definately be in jail if my vet had done anything like that

Michael, man ..I am sorry for your loss and a horrible experience....Vets have really dissapointed me so far and this just takes the cake...he should have known better. Sorry you had to go through that. Hope you get good results from the test. Andy
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biopsy should reveal the pressence of IBD. Sorry for your loss.

My vet is the reptile vet for the Pittsburgh Zoo and he said an IBD test can be performed on a live boa by simply taking a biopsy of the liver.

From what I uderstand a test from the liver boa is only 70% accurate. Meaning if it comes back positive for IBD the snake has it for sure. But if it comes back negavite there is still a 30% chance the snake is infected with IBD. From a dead snake, they test from three differnt organs the liver, pancreus (sp.), and something else and this test is 100% accurate. Thank you all for making this a little easier to handle.
Michael Burton

I would look into blood tests and fecals if you can. (fecal may not be possible)

A common thing that causes a lack of growth is internal parasites, round worms are vey common. They can be contracted from infested prey items (live, fresh killed, or f/t that was not frozen for at least 3 weeks).

Chris makes some great points.Internal parasites are the largest factor in non-weight gainning animals. As a surgical Vet Technician I can tell you that the beating heart is perfectly normal and that your beautiful snake didnt feel anything. The way the Ethansol works is to sedate the animal to sleep and kill the blood and O2 flow to the brain and organs, the heart usually stops with in 2-10 minutes depending on the dose, but I can assure you that your Vet did everything according to procedure from what you have report. As for the IBD test, if your vet uses a reputable lab then the lab should retest a negative biopsy 2-3 times to assure the accurace of the test with any test that has an accuracy rating of 95% or lower, so if your Vet uses a good lab then you will be getting accurate results. I am sorry for you lose, but it does sound like you did what was best for the snake. I hope that the results come back favorably for you.

Sincerely,
Rose Aguilar
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www.srsnakes.com

thank you, thank you. That's all I needed to hear. A few weeks ago I saw a special on human surgeries. People were awake in the middle of the surgery, but couldn't move to speak. But they could feel and remember everything. This is all I could think of while I was watching the heart beat. Thanks you once again for letting me know that my snake didn't feel anything.
Michael Burton

Everyone:

Please read Rose's thoughts again!!!! She hit the nail on the head!!!! Detecting a snakes heart beat is tough enough when they are not being put down, let alone when they are going down. Don't judge the vet because our emotions are involved!!!!!!!! I have seen a 23 year old Puerto Rican Boa being put down at a zoo I was employed by(by an amazing zoo vet) and it took almost 8 minutes before we detected a faint heart beat! We are still scratching the surface in sooo many ways when it comes to ALL the aspects of captive care of animals,....let alone reptiles!!!
You did the right thing in first removing the boa from your collection(cross contamination is very common). To me it sounds as if the signs of IBD were present. But, sometimes signs, whether true or not, are a warning of quarantine possibilities.
When I write this out, I mean not just after you see problems. Quarantine your reptiles before moving them near your established collections!!! The dollar sign does not rule success!!!! Proper care, husbandry, fecals, behavoir records(especially in larger collections) is the judgement of success.....these are not machines, they are living creatures. We have sooo much to learn from our boas, each other, and the problems that may come up. The fact that you all share your experiences on the forum is such a PLUS! Just keep an OPEN MIND, practice GREAT husbandry, and be perceptive of differences in your reptiles behavoir and routine. You can ALWAYS learn from it!!!! My condolences!!

makes my stomach ache. If I were in that situation I would have contacted the breeder to see if there is any possible explanation (maybe the same thing is happening in his/her collection). As Andy said most vets are very disappointing and are in fact very inexperienced with reptiles. Vets are only offered seminars on reptile care and as far as I am concerned 90% percent of them are for lack of better terms idiot’s when it comes to reptile care in general. Why your vet did what he/she did is beyond me and is very unacceptable in my opinion; why should animals (any animal) have to endure something that would cause any Doctor to lose their license is beyond me. I also would probably be incarcerated at the state hospital after going through what you lived through.

Remember the glass is half full and learn from your experience, we all have had similar situations as hobbyists and need to learn from life’s mishaps. I am very sorry for your loss and hope the future has better things in store for you.

-Greg Reinert-

that thinks everyone is over-reacting just a bit. This brings up a point that I think we should all think about.

First of all let me tell you I am sorry for your loss!!

We are keeping animals, many of us in large numbers. There will occasionally be some deaths no matter what we do. I hope Im not being harsh, but everytime I read one of these stories it kind of *isses me off.

These are wild animals, they are not dogs or cats or some other domesticated animal that has been kept by humans for thousands of years. Knowledge is very sparse with reptiles and we are learning more every day, however we cannot duplicate what they have in the wild, this and the fact that we expose our reptiles to many things that they otherwise would not be is why we occasionally kill our animals.

How is the Vet the bad guy? He did what he was asked. Does it really matter that the heart was still beating....as far as I am concerned the snake was basically dead as soon as you noticed the symptoms. I myself would have put it in the freezer long before you had it put down.

The tests can still be done to determine IBD, however it is a known fact that even when doing the tests and IBD is "positive" it does not necessarily mean the snake had IBD. It only means that there are inclusion bodies present, which can come from many sources.

IBD is a serious disease, and we all need to be aware of it. And in order to understand it fully will take alot of money and time that unfortunately many of us are not willing to do, that is until we are affected directly.

Sorry for the rant....
Good luck
Bob

hi bob

i understand you for most off what you ARE saying,
but the thing is THE VET told him that it would take 10 to 15 minutes for the snake to die,
so for the love of god why couldn,t he wait another 10 minutes before cutting her open.
and oke we are working with reptiles but i can,t speak for everyone but i love my boa,s asmuch as i love my dog

thanks
toine plompen
holland

YOUR NOT THE ONLY ONE!!! Are we accepting ALL the aspects of keeping live reptiles in captivity? How in the world would the vet be able to predict how long boa A, B or C would pass on during euthanasia!!!? Its so easy to place blame, instead of thinking, looking at records you kept on your boas(most do not) or other reasons your boa went down hill. Have all of you that are judging the vet done fecals on every boa in your collection before letting it come in contact with another boa? That is part of the responcibility we should take on in keeping reptiles in captivity! Most don't even worm their dogs anually...all dogs that step out doors can get worms!!!!! How many of you that judge the vet, have "cleaned out" new purchases or done fecal exams..whether captive or WC before introducing them into your boa collections? Very few I'd guess! The not knowing and emotions, as in my last post, are clouding your judgements..not the fact that many are driven by litters, sales on the classifieds,the market value of that locality or "color morph" and the lack of accepting the ethics and morality of keeping reptiles captive in herpetoculture!

LONGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

toine

Bob,
I certainly didn't mean to piss you off. Yes, we are still learning about reptiles everyday. But something we have already learned is that when you perform euthanasia it takes a certain about of time for the animal to pass on. My vet knew this. I never said my vet is a bad guy. He was simply impatient and in my opinion made a mistake. He said it would take 10 to 15 mins. and he only waited 5. He even said that is it not normal for the heart to still be beating. And it wasn't just a little movement, the heart was moving blood throughout the veins. Maybe the snake was already dead, but it was something I was not prepared to see. As far as you saying "AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THE SNAKE WAS BASICALLY DEAD AS SOON AS YOU NOTICED THE SYMPTOMS. I MYSELF WOULD HAVE PUT IT IN THE FREEZER LONG BEFORE YOU HAD IT PUT DOWN." I understand what you are saying, but I was not sure if it was IBD or not. And putting a living, breathing snake in a freezer seems cruel to me. I'm sure its been done before but I know if I was sick I wouldn't want someone to throw me in a freezer to slowly die before they tried to fix the problem. Not to mention I would have never found out if it was IBD or not. Today is not the day I really want to defend myself. I did what I thought was best for my snake and my collection. Seeing you pet pass on is hard, seeing your pet cut open is harder, seeing your "dead" pets beating heart is something that I never want to experience again. And like I said before this is to warn others. If your vet says it will take 10 to 15 min. for the snake to pass on, make him wait 10 to 15 min.
Michael Burton Another picture of Missy

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Thank you,
Dave

Just wanted to say sorry.

Michael T

Very sorry to hear about your sad bad news. Hope you can see blue sky's soon. Keep your head up and things will get better soon! I be thinking about ya bro.
Take care buddy
JAKE

I'm sure she is now somewhere safe and happy. She will remember your strong feeling's towards her I promise

your loss. It always sucks losing a pet. I remember having a pet put down a few years ago. I wanted to be there and watch as my pet was put down, it was emotional for me. But I'm glad I was there. I hope you get over this soon and realize you did the best you could for your boa. I hope this is a isolated case and the rest of your collection will be fine.
Chuck

Michael Burton

It is very difficult to explain, but the heart's timing system isn't really attached that well to the brain. The snake is dead, yet the heart beats because the tissue has not yet died (the process of decomposition). Normally, after an animal dies, the tissue is soon to follow, because energy sources and oxygen are immediately deprived. With herpitiles, breathing does stop, but they have the ability for anaerobic respiration (utilizing the oxygen in the tissue), thus the tissue can live for some time without specific cause to die.
I hope this explains things a bit.

I've done a necropsy on a frog 24hrs post-mortem and the heart is still beating. I've had a snake's heart beat for 1/2hr after I've removed it, and even while I was dissecting it to view the valves.

While it was your request to see the "innards" of your snake, your DVM should have probably refused, or at least better prepared you for it. I find it hard to necropsy my pets, and usually ask someone else to do it.

I guess the logical question to follow is, how do you know it's dead, because you sure don't want to have that snake feeling pain. Well, since a brain scan is usually out of the question, it is often approached as if the patient is under anesthesia for a surgery. Reflexes and responses are tested as the procedure is done. There are signs of pain response while the patient is still unconscious (and not aware of any pain). If these ever became apparent, the vet would quickly take measures to ensure consciousness never became an option.

I hope this puts you at ease; make sure you get samples tested for IBD, it can strike your collection in a month, or a year, you'll never know.

Ian

Ian that was a very informative answer. I would love to see more posts like that. In my opinion, science rules over everything and there is(even if its not yet known)an explanation for every occurrence in nature. Would this explain why there have been documented envenomations with dead rattlesnakes? Thanks so much.
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honesty is my only policy