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A couple pics from the field.

FR Apr 03, 2006 09:32 AM

Of course they are not kingsnakes(I am not working with them at this time) but are interesting none the less.

The first pic is about life. Sometimes you make your bed, then you have to lay in it. hahahahahahahahaha

This is a pic of an Ancient(really old native americans) shelter, there are grinding stones and pottery shards, etc. Only an invasive creature thats a million times more dangerous then niles, illegal immigrants made a bed it there. But as you can see, it can be a dangerous thing. Sleeping in the bed you made.
This is a large female diamondback laying in that bed.

This pic is of a large male diamondback, in the process of "ritualized combat" of course, I do not think anything published or understood about this is all that accurate. Its mostly misunderstand behavior. Of interest is, I have history on these males, both from this year and many many pervious years. This allows me to have a slighly different understanding of what this behavior is about.

If your interested, we could have a conversation on the history of this event. And maybe gain a more accurate understanding. Whatever, enjoy the pics. Cheers

Replies (15)

antelope Apr 03, 2006 11:39 AM

Frank, great pictures and I think it would be interesting to hear what your take is on the males behaviors. You are in the right place at the right time!
Todd Hughes

FR Apr 03, 2006 11:45 AM

How about you tell me what you think it is. That way we can have a base to start with. I will have a little understanding of what you have read and think. Thanks

antelope Apr 03, 2006 12:06 PM

What I have read is it is basically a shoving match or "upper positioning" that will win the field. The first snake to exhaust themself crawls away and the other is the victor. Unlike king cobras, I think if you leave in a hurry you don't get eaten! I haven't witnessed this event in the field so I am uneducated. I could only say that from what I took from your reports, rattlesnakes pair up and may or may not have more than one mate. I would guess that the large snake is indeed defending his territory from a "wanderer" or outsider and insuring his genes are kept in the mix. I'm thinking the "loser" doesn't submit and is permitted to stay as a subordinate male in a family or pack type situation but is actually made to leave the area. Just my guesses and I wish I didn't have to make assumptions. I haven't spent a lot of time with atrox but know a tiny bit about them. Okay now I'm ready to be schooled!
Todd Hughes

wftright Apr 04, 2006 10:47 PM

If you're letting people guess about things, I'd like to throw out an idea. Maybe my premises are completely wrong. I don't remember where I heard them, so I can't even vouch for the source.

I've heard that snakes aren't designed for "aerobic" output as well as mammals are. This source claimed that they don't have the energy reserves or the type of metabolism that would allow them to use huge reserves. In that case, this kind of display could be about proving one's fitness by a show of energy output.

Another thought is that they're exercising to fight irregularity. I've sometimes noticed that my CalKing will be very active right before defecating. I'll be sitting here typing on the computer, and I'll notice him come out of hiding and do about four or five laps around the aquarium. When he's done, I'll often notice that he's defecated. He'll also defecate when I hold him for about 45 minutes. He'll be active for a bit crawling around my hands and arms, and then he'll get still. About five or ten minutes later, he lets go. We used to have a dog that would run back and forth across the back yard to help himself go. Come to think of it, as I age, I sometimes find that exercise helps me stay regular. Again, maybe I'm spouting a stupid idea, but stupid ideas give you a chance to tell me why you think my speculation is wrong.

Anyway, those are some quick thoughts that came to me while reading this thread.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Kerby... Apr 03, 2006 07:58 PM

Rich Gassaway has bred rattlesnakes and I believe it was in 2004 his baby Blacktails were observed doing this "combat". After probing them he found out that they were not 2 males, but I believe he said they were a male and female...and they were only a few weeks old. He also took pics and I know he posted them on the AHA forum when it happened.

Kerby...

FR Apr 03, 2006 08:49 PM

This display is not restricted to males or adults. All sizes and sexes will do it.

Even more, its not necessarily about territory. Cheers

antelope Apr 04, 2006 01:18 AM

So they are socializing? Dancing? Greeting?
Todd Hughes

FR Apr 04, 2006 09:24 AM

Before you start with the "they ares", you first must understand. The error of the term. Its often called, ritualized. A ritual, is something repeated in an unthinking way. One difinition is scripted. They are suppose to just do it. The same thing. This is far far from accurate.

They have a whole series of behaviors. They do what is needed at the time and place and under conditions that predict that need. That is, its a simple lauguage. Its practiced by both sexes and all sizes.

The one part of this language that most often is viewed and is very repeatable, is when you find two males of equal size or you place two males of equal size in a cage. The start is when one male presents to another, that is, makes it known hes there. This can be a bump, nudge, or poke. That gives the other male a chance to decide what he wants to do. Normally if the other male is smaller or weaker, which is the most common case. The stronger or larger male will simply bite him and chase him off. End of that story.

Chase him off of what. Why are they doing this. Well, its called a ritualized territorial display. So it must be about territory? Well it can be, but not always. In reality, its about all sorts of stuff, more about pocessions, like territory, or females, or males, or food, or a hole, or a basking spot, or anything that they may disagree on.

Does this behavior chase the loser away, never to return? NO. It just sets boundries. You know, Like Keith tried to do with me went I first came here. In this case, the one I posted. Those males were coiled up together, just a couple days ago. No problems. They were also coiled up together last year. And the year before and the year before. My bet is, they will be coiled up together next year too.

Will it prevent the weaker male from spreading his inferior genes(mans stupid common preception) heck no. In this case, the weaker individual, simply left and circled around and went back to the female. He cheated. hahahahahahahahaha.

Is it about chasing a maurading male from another area away. Not in this case. These two are buddies and are together every year. There are other males that will not go near this place. They stay nearby and hope to get the scraps(whatever that means)

These type of display is complicated and there are many parts to it. They only do what parts that are necessary and fit the situation.

On our montane study site. We often wonder why we do not see this behavior, we find males near eachother all the time. It should be a common site. Its not. But you can go out and catch a male from one area and throw him in with a male from another area and they will combat. But the individuals on our site, do not combat commonly or at least not everytime another male is near. Or at least common enough for us to see it.

This post is to raise more questions and is not a complete discription. I do not have the time to write a complete discription. But I do have the time to talk about small parts of this story(language) Cheers

markg Apr 04, 2006 04:51 PM

>> Does this behavior chase the loser away, never to return? NO. It just sets boundries. You know, Like Keith tried to do with me went I first came here.

markg Apr 04, 2006 04:56 PM

>> Does this behavior chase the loser away, never to return? NO. It just sets boundries. You know, Like Keith tried to do with me went I first came here.

LOL

Great info. FR, how long have you and/or others known that this "combat dance" is not specific to just one situation (males competing for a female)?

FR Apr 04, 2006 05:46 PM

Since the early seventies. When we had females combat other females and females combat males. Kinda knew something was up.

I actually included this in a publication in 76. But the publication was not published as it also included kingsnakes envolved in pathnogentic reproduction. Which was unheard of at the time in snakes. So out the window it went.

I will say, all my experience at that time was with captives. So its very interesting to see wild snakes doing the same things. Cheers

Kerby... Apr 04, 2006 09:17 PM

**Will it prevent the weaker male from spreading his inferior genes(mans stupid common preception) heck no. In this case, the weaker individual, simply left and circled around and went back to the female. He cheated. hahahahahahahahaha**

Also has been observed in Whitetail Deer. Two big bucks in the rut..battling it out..and the smaller, younger buck sneaks up and breeds the waiting female while the two big "genetically superior" bucks keep on fighting.

Kerby...

crimsonking Apr 05, 2006 03:47 PM

I know I would!! haha. Let the big boys make fools of themselves and I'll take the spoils...haha
A lot to be said for laying low,huh?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

antelope Apr 05, 2006 09:11 PM

LOL! Yeah, you could swoop in under cover and pullout the prize!
Todd Hughes

HKM Apr 04, 2006 01:06 AM

OOHHH ooohhhh can I play??? No wait, I'll ask another question.

Those of you familiar with rattlesnake behavior know they often aggregate in large numbers, particularly at certain times of the year. If combat were for a male winning a female, or, for a male defending a territory, what would a late fall early spring prime shelter look like?? Garden eels. Why doesn't it????

And we all know kingsnakes eat rattlesnakes (keeps the thread on subject ).

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