Reptile & Amphibian Forums

can someone explain how to tell the difference. I thought they were the same until I read some posts and classifieds

they are the same species. I think the real difference is in locale. But, canebrakes are lighter in color. I think it would be like calling northern and southern copperheads by different names.

ep
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Occupants not paying rent:
1.1. balls
1.1 corns
1 everglades rat
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
2.1 cats

As I recall, canebrake rattlers in the south and timber rattlers in the north used to be considered separate subspecies. But somebody did some work on them and concluded that they were the ends of a gradual transition, so the subspecies were lumped back together.

Paul Hollander

"I think it would be like calling northern and southern copperheads by different names."

I dont understand what you were trying to say here. The northern and southern are two different subspecies. The southern has a pair of spots running the length of its body between the hourglasses. These are just anterior to the spine, one on each side.
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

I was just saying that maybe they could easily call them northern and southern canebrakes. I may just be confused as to their classification.

ep
-----
Occupants not paying rent:
1.1. balls
1.1 corns
1 everglades rat
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
2.1 cats

>>can someone explain how to tell the difference. I thought they were the same until I read some posts and classifieds

The Timber and Canebrake are very similar in appearance and this subject has been argued extensively. Some researchers believe that the Canebrake is just a color variation of the Timber. Others believe that it is a seperate ssp, this is due to the fact that the Canebrake has 25 rows of dorsal scales. (The southern population of Timbers have 25 as well, while the more northern population averages 23) It also has a more pinkish coloration and usually has a well defined stripe running the length of its back. This stripe can be yellowish, rusty brown, beige, pink, and almost a lavendar in some specimens.

A study was done in 1986 by Brown and Ernst on these two rattlers, and the conclusion was that taxonomic separation was warranted.

I have not heard of any DNA testing done that would substantiate or negate this conclusion, and if anyone has read or has knowledge of such data, please share it??

I for one think they are probably one and the same, just being that the Canebrake has a very pretty color variation. I could be wrong though!!
Brian

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

thanks alot, where might I find a map that would seperate the two? I live in northeast Ga. and I'm assumeing I may find both. thanks agan

This is one of those cases where hobbyists don't like the result of a taxonomic change and so they continue to use the older names. Canebrakes (atricaudatus) were sunk years ago when it was shown that there was a gradual change from the highland pattern (Timber rattlesnakes) to the lowland pattern (Canebrake Rattlesnake).

Depending where you are in GA, you can see both, and even some that are hard to identify as one pattern or the other. In the lowlands (southern GA and the coastal plain) you would find Canebrakes. They like upland areas that border wooded swamps, particularly if there are some clearings where they can sun. Turning trash in these areas can be productive.

In the mountains of NW GA, I believe you can find the Timber morph of this species. I suspect there are some in the Piedmont that would be hard to pigeonhole into one morph or the other.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

whether same species or not...........the herp community ( what I was told ) conceives anything south of a certain area in Alabama to be canebrake including the pinkish colored ones while anything north of certain areas are considered timbers. That's all that I know.........
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Actually the "Canebrake" ranges all the way up through western TN and into the southwestern portion of KY along the KY/TN border, up through eastern AR and into the southeastern portion of MO.
Along those northern boundaries of the range it "intergrades" if you will, with the timber and the patterns and colorations can be quite stunning.
Brian

>>whether same species or not...........the herp community ( what I was told ) conceives anything south of a certain area in Alabama to be canebrake including the pinkish colored ones while anything north of certain areas are considered timbers. That's all that I know.........
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>>I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian