Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a couple of pics of my 05 female (SE Oklahoma) locality. Even though they'll never beat out Corns in popularity, there's just something about these ratsnakes of the mid-west that I absolutely love. Mabybe it's their contrasting earthtone colors, or maybe it's their voracious appetite. ONe this gor sure, they are a joy to work with. I think this girl would eat every other day if I gave her the chance, LOL

Steve

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Beautiful snake. Nice contrasty pattern. I like 'em, haha. I hope she holds her looks into adulthood.

TC

Thanks Terry. If for some reason she drops off a bit in the looks department, I'll just trade her to you for one of your Meahllmorum, LOL

Steve

Beautiful snake. Nice contrasty pattern. I like 'em, haha. I hope she holds her looks into adulthood.

yes nice Emoryi, kind of cool since I just bought this southwestern rat last week from Noah's Pets in Chesterfield. We need to meet at the next close show since you are only 2 counties removed from me ( Hanover ) and both have Corns and rat snakes. Take care.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e14/wisema2297/my snakes/000_0118.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e14/wisema2297/my snakes/000_0122.jpg
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1.0 het albino ball
1.0 norm ball
0.2 norm ball
0.1 snow corn
1.0 butter corn
1.0 norm corn
1.0 southwestern rat
1.0 striped Cali king
1.0 western hog

Visual Morphs?....I love the normal looks. You can't improve on nature, you can only produce "interesting deviations".

That's a nice animal. Looks like a meahllmorum. Terry Cox could chim in on that if he hasn't already.
I usually go to the Richmond show in Chesterfield, and sometimes the Manassas show. And sometimes Raleigh, NC. I was at the Richmond show the Sunday before last. I spent a bit of time talking with Peter Jolles (Post on here as ECC) and Zee (BlueKing) at their respective table.
By the way, I checked out your photobucket pics, and I believe your Butter was one of my snakes that I did a trade at Noah's Pets. He's a 2002 male, who I purchased as a baby from Rich Z out of Serpenco. He's a great snake. My daughter handled that snake from day one. I think she's still ticked at me for doing a trade for him. I did a few class room educationals with your Butter. Glad he's got a great home.
Steve

>>yes nice Emoryi, kind of cool since I just bought this southwestern rat last week from Noah's Pets in Chesterfield. We need to meet at the next close show since you are only 2 counties removed from me ( Hanover ) and both have Corns and rat snakes. Take care.

your right it is a meahllmorum, but Noah's had it labled as an anery corn. I tried to tell him that it was not a corn but he wouldn't believe me. I decided that I wanted it since I've never seen one in person before.
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1.0 het albino ball
1.0 norm ball
0.2 norm ball
0.1 snow corn
1.0 butter corn
1.0 norm corn
1.0 southwestern rat
1.0 striped Cali king
1.0 western hog

Visual Morphs?....I love the normal looks. You can't improve on nature, you can only produce "interesting deviations".

when you trade anymore corn morphs at Noah's, I'll go look at them or purchase them from you directly from you if you like. I am mainly interested in charcoal, anery, pewter, blood reds, and Abbotts Okee's. I have already found a butter female for your old male, glad to know that he is Serpenco stock. Thanks.
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1.0 het albino ball
1.0 norm ball
0.2 norm ball
0.1 snow corn
1.0 butter corn
1.0 norm corn
1.0 southwestern rat
1.0 striped Cali king
1.0 western hog

Visual Morphs?....I love the normal looks. You can't improve on nature, you can only produce "interesting deviations".

You got it bro. I'll let you know next time. That was pretty much a rare thing with me, as far as doing a trade with a petstore. Most of the time I sell outright on the classifieds. I only have one corn right now. An adult Okeetee. Kingsnakes make up the bulk of my collection. I also keep several types of North American Ratsnakes, a couple of Milksnakes, a female Western hog, and a few other odds and ends.

Steve

>>when you trade anymore corn morphs at Noah's, I'll go look at them or purchase them from you directly from you if you like. I am mainly interested in charcoal, anery, pewter, blood reds, and Abbotts Okee's. I have already found a butter female for your old male, glad to know that he is Serpenco stock. Thanks

any lucy rats? I really like the black rat lucy's.
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1.0 het albino ball
1.0 norm ball
0.2 norm ball
0.1 snow corn
1.0 butter corn
1.0 norm corn
1.0 southwestern rat
1.0 striped Cali king
1.0 western hog

Visual Morphs?....I love the normal looks. You can't improve on nature, you can only produce "interesting deviations".

I have one 05 male Lucy Black that I just orderd from Don Soderberg. I'll be holding on to this one.

Steve

>>any lucy rats? I really like the black rat lucy's

>>You are right,
There is just something about them.
I will have to get a few pics of my little emoryis.
Been a while since I took any.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

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I'm looking forward to seeing some updated pics of your emoryi rats.

Steve

I love these guys! Nueces county, Texas locale S.P. rats.
Todd Hughes

Latest literature calls them Southwestern rat snakes (Elaphe (Pantherophis) emoryi meahllmorum). "Texas Snakes, A Field Guide" James R. Dixon and John E. Werler (Nov. 2005, University of Texas Press). Some feel they should be P. guttatus meahllmorum.

Here's my favorite Nueces County female. Over 4 ft long and more than 700 grams. WC from the busy Airline / Cimmaron area of Corpus Christi. Mother to 2 clutches so far. Giving her this year off from breeding.

-Toby Brock

Dang, that's a big snake, Toby. My two and a half yr. old female is nowhere near that big, probably around 300 grams. I wonder how big you're clutches have been?

I still think there needs to be some work done on this species/group. I don't know why Dixon went with the change from Elaphe guttata meahllmorum to E. emoryi meahllmorum, since his last paper. There's supposed to be a new paper coming out soon on the different subspecies of the guttata group, by Vaughan, et al. The new TX field guide just uses some current classification put out by the Collins group w/o any research data to back it up. I'm sticking with Pantherophis (Elaphe) guttatus meahllmorum until it's proven that meahllmorum and slowinskii aren't intergrading along the TX coast, and they really are two separate sps.

I know we were calling the southern subspecies, the Southern Great Plains rat, for awhile, as opposed to the Northern Great Plains rat, but there's two reasons why I've stopped doing that. One is that the range of meahllmorum is in the Tamaulipan ecosystem, rather than what most herpers consider the Great Plains. Also, I don't believe the Great Plains ratsnake is a separate species from the corn snake, so I hesitate to call meahllmorum a G.P. rat, as if these two ssps formed a separate species. It's not that I'm just going with the new terminology, but I just don't consider meahllmorum a Great Plains rat. So, I'm calling it a Southwestern ratsnake now, to make that distinction.

I do think there's some similarities with emoryi, however. I'd like to be able to do some research on similarities and differences, but don't have many specimens right now. One similarity is clutch size, I believe. Meahllmorum is also similar with the corn, or at least Slowinski's corn. I believe they intergrade along the coast. Those Nueces snakes are very large, like the corn snakes. I'm a little surprised they get so big. I've always thought of emoryi as being much smaller than most corns. My western emoryi are small and bulky, not over 36 inches. Also, my Freer, s. TX, meahllmorum, is pretty small too. But she's only 2.5 yrs. old though.

Anyway, interesting stuff. Keep posting the info and those nice pix guys...

TC

Terry,

I think it is still possible for your Freer female to get as big as my Nueces (se Corpus Christi) female. I estimate her at being 5 or 6 years old based on her size when captured in 2003. One of her '04 offspring is at least 30 inches long and weighs around 160 grams at most recent weigh in. I also have a young adult female from western Nueces County near the Jim Wells County line which is about 350 grams and over 3 ft long. I estimate her at about 3 years old.

I didn't weigh the eggs or neonates of either '04 or '05 clutch, but the eggs and babies were huge. 11 eggs first clutch and 14 eggs in the second. Here's an '05 neonate before the first shed.

-Toby

I also have a young adult female from western Nueces County near the Jim Wells County line which is about 350 grams and over 3 ft long. I estimate her at about 3 years old.
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Yeah, you're right. My B.I. female is close to your western Nueces and prob. has a couple more years of growing to do. BTW, I put my male B.I. rat in with my western Emory's rat and am going to try for a cross bt. the two ssps. I also put my male western Emory's in with an albino corn to try to get some creamsicle hets there. Just for your information.

>>I didn't weigh the eggs or neonates of either '04 or '05 clutch, but the eggs and babies were huge. 11 eggs first clutch and 14 eggs in the second. Here's an '05 neonate before the first shed.
>>

Wow! Those are pretty large clutches for an Emory's rat, don't you think? The large egg size is more like Emory's though. I'm beginning to think that maybe the whole population bt. Corpus Christi and Houston are intergrades. They just seem different from the other meahllmorum and emoryi. We'll just have to keep plugging away and see what we can find out. Also, for your information, my cross bt. a corn and a B.I. rat produced a clutch of around 13 eggs. I'll be anxious to see what emoryi x meahllmorum and meahllmorum x guttatus and emoryi x guttatus, etc, produces. We could learn a lot in the long run.

PS: Have you seen any guttatus from Mexico? Thanks...

Terry

Terry, good luck on those intergrades. I am looking forward to seeing the babies. Sounds like my big female meahllmorum has clutches about the size of a meahllmorum x guttatus clutch... hmmm.

I have not heard of or seen guttatus or meahllmorum from Mexico, but I have thought about that also. Your Brazos Island snakes are as far south as I have seen, but according to old field guides I have, they range well into Mexico. -Toby

I got one male that is missing his tail end that is from above Mathis. he is just over 5'. He is an old timer that retained an eyecap ages ago and is blind in that eye. I found him at the very bottom of a tin pile with a family of cotton rats. No doubt he'd had his share! This is bar none the biggest southwestern rat I've seen let alone found. Wish I had a pic of him. He's a bruiser but not a biter. Some of my g.p.'s are nasty tempered!
Todd Hughes

Wow! That is a whopper, Todd. If you still have that snake I'd love to see a pic. Also, he might be good starter stock for folks who want to keep the largest of the guttatus group. I would be tempted, but am not set up for it. I'm concentrating on keeping the smaller snakes. I'd get some stats on him, like official weight and length, etc, if I was going to work with that snake and try to make a more robust line, and then use that to promote it. Just something to think about. Good luck and keep us posted. Thanks...

TC

PS: That doesn't sound much like a Great Plains rat. I've never heard of a G.P. rat over 5 ft. before. What d'ya thin? heheh...

>>I got one male that is missing his tail end that is from above Mathis. he is just over 5'. He is an old timer that retained an eyecap ages ago and is blind in that eye. I found him at the very bottom of a tin pile with a family of cotton rats. No doubt he'd had his share! This is bar none the biggest southwestern rat I've seen let alone found. Wish I had a pic of him. He's a bruiser but not a biter. Some of my g.p.'s are nasty tempered!
>> Todd Hughes

That's a big, battle-scarred snake Todd! I'd like to see that one! I have 2 big Nueces County males, one measured 56 inches a couple years ago and the other is a little longer, close to 5 ft. Both weigh more than 950 grams each.

Some of my adult southwesterns are pretty jumpy, but none of them are biters. The majority of the babies seem to go through long nippy periods, though. -Toby

That's an impressive meahllmorum Toby. That's a heck of a big girl. I must say I love the head pattern on her. When I look at it, reminds me of either the top view of a bottle nose Dolphin, or I also see an F-14 Tomcat with it's wings in the fully extended position. Then again maybe I just spent too much time in the Navy, LOL She's a beauty regardless.

Steve

Latest literature calls them Southwestern rat snakes (Elaphe (Pantherophis) emoryi meahllmorum). "Texas Snakes, A Field Guide" James R. Dixon and John E. Werler (Nov. 2005, University of Texas Press). Some feel they should be P. guttatus meahllmorum.

Here's my favorite Nueces County female. Over 4 ft long and more than 700 grams. WC from the busy Airline / Cimmaron area of Corpus Christi. Mother to 2 clutches so far. Giving her this year off from breeding

Steve, Glad to hear somebody besides me remark on her head pattern! LOL I thought it was the most interesting spearpoint I had ever seen in guttatus or emoryi. Parts of it make me think of hotrod flames! -Toby

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