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Indians are Python molurus,molurus and Celonese are python pimbura.They are two different sub species of Burmese pythons right? I have always been confused and wanted to get it straight.Indians are the tamer of the two? Thanks
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Ashley Lopez's Black Forest Constrictors.
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Thus is true. No experience with indians...only Ceylonese so I couldn't tell you which is usually more calm.

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John Light
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If I understood a series of recent posts on the subject,the jury is still out on the species -vs- subspecfic question. I'm less confident about the temperment question, but I will guess that the bad rap is due to the scarcity of both snakes in captivity compared to burms...as popularity increases and with good breeding, that shouldn't be a problem with either...kinda like the bloods.

They are currently lumped together (as I understand it) so that fish and game can identify these animals. It's really not to hard to tell them apart after you look through a few pics.
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John Light
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You are correct, the Indian, Sri Lanka, and Burmese pythons are all considered taxonomically as subspecies of the Python molurus group. The Sri Lanka python was classified as Python molurus pimbura in 1945, but has since been lumped in with the Indian, and so both the Indian and Sri Lanka pythons are currently defined as Python molurus molurus. There is an ongoing debate about this that, as far as I know, has yet to be resolved. The differences in their appearance are fairly distinct, but there are no really significant morphological scalation differences. The molurus on Sri Lanka do not reach the sizes of the mainland molurus, and there is a definite difference in behavior between the two. Sri Lanka specimens are much more alert and active than the mainland molurus, and most individuals from Sri Lanka have a fairly highstrung, and sometimes aggressive attitude, that is quite different from the mainland specimens. This is not always the case however, as I have several pure Sri Lanka pythons that although they are very active, they can be easily handled without becoming aggressive. If you have what you believe to be a Sri Lanka python that is totally calm and sluggish acting, I would definitely have doubts about its genetic purity.

Kelly

Not Sluggish! Very Alert for sure! They have never tried to bite unless f/t rats are around. When I first take them out they do need a min or 2 to calm down as they want to slither and get away it seems. After a few moments they will chill and I treat them like any other calm snake. My pair is 100% pure no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If I ever do get bitten it will be from reaching in the cage, once out I don't have any problems.

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John Light
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They certainly look like pure blooded ceylonese. One sure way you can tell is by eventual size. My females usually top out at 8 to 10 feet though usually closer to 8 and my males top out at 7 to 8 feet. Whenever there is a supposed ceylonese that reaches larger sizes like 12 feet or over I would certainly raise an eyebrow and suspect some history of burmese in it's ancestry.
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
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The pair dates back to a W.C. pair and is generation 3. No chance for unpure blood. The female is nearing 6ft and the male is much smaller then her now! I'll have to get some new pics!
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John Light
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Hey John,

Why do you think I want you to call me when you get kiddos,

I bring my holdback ceylons up pretty fast with a very generous diet and they usually don't top 3 or 4 feet at one year old. Whereas my burmese holdbacks reach lengths of 8 to 10 feet (females) at one year fed only moderately. There is a marked difference in growth rates between the two subspecies.

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
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I should have measured them when I got them. I know the female was bigger and they both had room to fill up. They weren't skinny or anything but you could tell they could beef up. The female has beefed up a ton so that could be the major difference I'm seeing thinking she's grown a ton. I know she is much bigger then the male, that's for sure! I don't know when they were born but they were yearlings (or older) when I got them. I Love em! My favorite herp by far! Having a pair of calm animals really helps their rep. They aren't all psycho (only pair I've ever seen so I really can't say I've seen a psycho one lol). Gotta love em! BTW I think I'm going to want 1 more....a killer hold back normal phase female...then I'll call my collection quits and only keep ceylonese LOL.
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John Light
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your size ranges for female Sri Lanka molurus. Females routinely reach the 10 to 12 foot range in the southern areas of Sri Lanka. I believe the record size is around 15 feet. I would agree with your size range for males however.

Kelly

Thanks Kelly.So they are two seperate species.However not recognized.Indians look lighter with a peachyier looking head and a green ground color right.I have heard Indians are alot more calmer then the celonese witch are more active and sometimes never calms down?I am asking because I am doing my homework before I go out and get one.I live in California so I can choose from E.B.V. or Prehistoric.I think E.B.V. has true Indian molurus.molurus.
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Ashley Lopez's Black Forest Constrictors.
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Prehistoric has 1 male Ceylonese (not sure if they are selling due to it being their last one). They also have pure indians. Ceylonese have a much pinker head imo! Ceylonese have a bad rep because there really aren't alot of them out there. Took me about 5 years to find my pair! Both of mine were pretty calm right from the get go. They will puff up and hiss but I haven't been tagged. Very alert...my vote goes to Ceylonese without a doubt!
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John Light
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clarification, they are actually just two separate subspecies, not currently recognized, of the same species molurus. You are correct in that Indians are typically lighter in coloration, and additionally, they do not show the “H” pattern markings on the body to anywhere near the degree that the Sri Lanka molurus do. Additionally, the arrow pattern on top of the head is typically almost absent in the Sri Lanka and is usually missing the front 50% in the Indian. This arrow pattern is always at 100% in the Burmese. One thing I have noticed is that newborn Indians show almost a full arrow pattern at birth, and then it recedes with age. Sri Lanka newborns usually only show at best half the arrow, and many times less. Activity level as you said is different, and I have never seen a completely calm molurus of Sri Lanka origin. Head coloration can be similar, as I have seen some Indian molurus with a slight peach coloration, although Sri Lanka specimens typically have more peach. Head pattern is more critical than head coloration for distinguishing between the two. And as a last point, it must be remembered that there is still a lot of coloration variability even within different specimens that originate from Sri Lanka. Below are a few individuals in my collection that illustrate that point. Note that even with the extreme color variation, all still retain the characteristic absence of an arrow pattern on top of the head.

Kelly

Good lookin molurus to be sure. But you said "a few of the ceylonese" you were/are working with. The female in the first picture is the same animal as in the last. Do you have any besides these two? This pair? I would be interested to see all of them if you don't mind taking the time to post the pictures. I curently am working with 7 females and several males and when my holdbacks reach maturity this number will be much greater. And the diversity in even fully related individuals is amazing.

So how many ceylons do you have total? And do you have any pictures of indian and/or ceylonese eggs hatching? I'd be currious to see if your babies look similar to mine.

As always thanks for all your input.
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David Beauchemin
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David, I wasn’t attempting to mislead anyone with the photos I posted. I was not really paying that much attention to which ones I posted, just trying to show some variability in color. I am currently working with 1.2 individuals and have posted a photo of the other female below. Unfortunately the lighting in my basement isn't exactly conducive to photography. I acquired them as hatchlings and have posted a photo below sent to me shortly before I purchased them. The key characteristic H-pattern of Sri Lanka specimens shows up well in that photo. I have been researching the Python molurus complex for over twenty years now, and have obtained a lot of first hand information over the years on Sri Lanka specimens from several experts working with them in captivity and in their natural habitat in Sri Lanka (University of Peradeniya staff). As far as temperament, it is common knowledge among these experts, and what I have seen myself with other specimens, that Sri Lanka molurus, captive born or wild caught, are many times more nervous and active than Burmese or Indians, and some individuals can be quite aggressive. That said, I hope I didn’t imply that this meant they were all aggressive. I use the term calm, as in sluggish, and they are by no means sluggish as many Burmese can be. It just means, as John Light put it, that they are much more alert and active than molurus from other locations. The ones I am currently working with have never attempted to bite, are easy to handle, but are definitely more alert and active than other molurus. To illustrate this, I have a photo below of myself holding one of the females. She is 4 years old, at 10.5 feet in length, and about 60 lbs. in this photo. Their growth has slowed considerably, and I do not expect them to get much beyond 11 feet as full-grown adults. That is pretty small in comparison to the adult size of the other molurus. I never attempt to breed any of the large constrictor species until at least their 4th year. I feel that pushing them by breeding early only increases the chance for reproductive health issues, and so I am looking at this coming winter for this group.

Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Thanks so much for posting this extra picture. She sure has a wild looking pattern. I can't wait to see pictures of her when she's bigger.

Your big female is one heck of a tree trunk. She dwarfs my larger females in just sheer heftiness. Big momma you got there. Bet she's never missed a meal.

Thanks again for posting. If you can drop me an email I have something I would like to discuss with you privately concerning the sri lankans.

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David Beauchemin
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I can only dream about my ceylonese at that size!!! I can't wait!!! Just purchased a 4-5ft yellow conda that was very nice looking. I need to find it a mate! Looks like I'm done with my collection for awhile....but I will be looking for a nice male to pair her with!
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John Light
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that first pic is awesome that is 1 hell of a snake

Just thought I'd show you some pics of some completely calm pure ceylonese. Neither bite and both have had kisses on the nose. I'll have more pics by tomorrow.

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John Light
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Great looking ceylons John. I can't wait to get some babies from them.

The vast majority of my ceylonese are entirely calm and laid back too. But roughly half of each clutch are skittish and need some work for the first several weeks of their lives until I can gain their full trust. But I have some females that come right out of the cage slow and with a straight neck, up to greet me and smell my face. They usually recognize me by sight and are not on guard at all. Out of all my ceylonese I only have one female that is skittish and one male that is hissy/huffy and only until I pick them up and reassure them.

Thanks for the pics John

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David Beauchemin
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I gotta get some new pics! Anyways my male has come a long way. He used to be very skittish!
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John Light
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Hi Bill,

That is a very nice looking female in the foreground. I am getting some of my stock from the East Bay Vivarium this year. They are one of the few places I know of that I trust to have pure stock to offer.

Please post pics when you get hatchlings. I'm sure I am not the only indian fan here that would love to see them.
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
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has the classic color and pattern. Let me know if she produces, as I would be interested. I got my annual permit report done just in time, about missed the cutoff date. Just curious, do you have the age, length, and weight on that female? Thanks and I hope she comes through for you. Please keep us posted.

Kelly

for answering my questions.I have learned alot.I really enjoy the reasearch aspect of our hobby.It really fascinates me.You can never learn enough or too much.I am currently studying how to breed bloods since I finally will have a adult pair for next season.My female boa is ovulating as we speak.Only time will tell if I studied enough.Thanks again.
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Ashley Lopez's Black Forest Constrictors.
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