Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This guy is growing like a weed Tom Stevens

Beautiful snake.
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1.2 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA (1.0 ALBINO/ 0.2 HYPO)
1.1 CORNS SNAKES (0.1 SNOW/ 1.0 STRIPEDSUNGLOW)
0.1 REDFOOT TORTOISE
1.0 LEOPARD TORTOISE
0.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 HORNED FROG
0.0.1 TADPOLES

Those Sulfur Lavenders are really hot looking...

Blasphemous calling them brooksi, though...

I thought you'd get flammed for that comment but I, for one, agree with you. The band count is not right, and in a Brooks, it would be so faded by the time it got that big I don't think you would hardly be able to make it out in the picture. That is classic "Florida" king pattern. I wish those that knew the real story on those would start a thread and really tell the tail of their origin. I think they are a selective bred captive creation. There is controversy in the name "Brooks" even, now they want to call the Brooks the Florida king and what we called the Florida king is the Penninsular intergrade or something, but I think I know what you meant by the comment. Not to take anything away from the snake, it is great and beautiful and all that, just maybe I agree it isn't a Brooks and shouldn't be called that. Please someone who knows tell the tail on their creation.

Seems like you've made up your mind before you know the facts, something very typical of this forum. If you are that interested search the archives, I am sure it has been posted on here more than once. I expect it will be posted again now since you had to begin things with a nice dramatic subject line. How many times will we discuss the Floridana / Brooksi debate? As recently mentioned on here....many of the morphs that may have began as Brooksi were bred into less attractive Floridana. Since it is a morph we're usually discussing....what's the big deal? According to the "experts" there's no such thing as Brooksi anyway. Let me ask you this, do you think we should call them all Floridana now? I would not be bothered by that in the least...how about you? Tom Stevens

I didn’t start the drama with that line, I was just responding to it from the post above that included it. I don’t believe there has ever been an albino Brooks to start this trait. It is a creation. If that is correct then that guy was right to say it is blasphemous to call them Brooks and I agree. I really do sincerely want to know the facts. Maybe it is common knowledge? I admit I do not know. I use my eyeballs and see that there are typical Brooks traits and typical Florida, and that looked more like Florida. As far as the names, I think there are two different camps. Those from the academia side that want to be pure taxanomic correctoid bla bla and the casual herper type that knows a Brooks when he sees one. I have no problem with Floridana or different traits being Floridana ssp. or whatever. If you’re the academic type, that thing is most probably Floridana. I’m the casual herper type and I say it is most probably Floridana too. But I wonder if it has its albino origin in something besides either Brooks or Floridana. I have heard that it does, you sound like one of those guys who probably knows exactly. I admit I’m a little lazy and I am not going to search the archives for it, I figured there are guys on here who love to go on about it and was hoping somebody like you would. I would read a forty-post thread on this subject, or any Goini topic, that is just something I never get tired of. Certainly no intent to put down that snake or the breeder, you or anything like that. What the heck, maybe I will search the archives for it.

I honestly did not have the info you had hoped for or I would have posted it. Rainer came on and cleared things up now anyway. Have you seen the regular Sulfurs??? Tom Stevens

Adults at that.

Brandon Osborne

For God's sake man, put on your sun shields! AAAAHHHH! MY EYES, MY EYES! HEHEH! Those are freakin' awesome!
Todd Hughes

Upscale,

The snake in questuion on Toms pic came from me. Tom got it from Jason and I originally sold it to Shannon Brown who picked the abberancie out of several clucthmates. He sold it to Jason and then Tom acquired it. So it indirectly came from me.

The sulfur is a result of breeding the high yellow sulfur brooksi into the Lavender strain. The sulfur is not a recessive trait. Just an unusual yellow phenotype. The sulfur is a true s. florida king (aka brooksi).

I have no idea what the lavender trait came from. They originated from Time Ricks who used to post here but is a recent Katrina survivor and is living snakeless somewhere else in the US so I doubt he can comment on his lavenders. The lavender gene may have come from regular floridana. I don't know for sure. I have heard from Chris Culatta (southern reptiles) that the lavender and whitesided strain are both man made. But then there was a rift between the once two partners so, who knows..? Thing is by me saying this and posting can caiuse doubt and that is the problem with open forums like this is that any know nothing (meaning me) can post any such drivel as he or she seems fit. BUt I have been particularly hard on myself by calling something pure and unpure. I have some T- (ie red eye albino florida kings) florida kings I bought for a heavy price and have said they don't appear to be true pure floridana. This is after I researched the lineage and history to a great extent and they came up as 100% pure . I have my doubts so you could say i am raising my own doubts even to a fault.

I do agree that Toms picture of the sulfur has an unusaul band count. But that is why Sgannon picked it. Most of the other sulfur lavs do not have this. With morphs we can and do get abberancies from years of captive breeding. I have seen all sorts of things from one end of the spectrum to the other hatch out of a given clutch. About the only morphs I have seen remain true are the ones that are consistently bred back to its original parents. A good example is the New England line I have been working with for years. I bred them back to the parents for years and then I was left with just the offspring. The patterns and such remain true. Until I raised up some unusual ones I held back and they do not keep the traditional "NE" look. I am speaking of normal "HET: NE's and ones that I kept back are turning a solid bone white. If you have seen Brandon Osborns WHITE BROOKSI you will know what I mean. Bottom line is breeding morphs and choosing for abberancies or anything unusual will bring new and undiscovered patterns and abnormalities. If you want plain Jane (boring IMO) done to death , run of the mill. ect ect . Then thats fine. I and some of the herp community has evolved past this. Nothing worng with either forms. They are all pure as pure is when raisng snakes in a deli cups and rubbermaid tubs. Just because something does not match what one finds in the wild does not mean it is a cross. Herpers such as myself have been working for years to keep certain lines pure and mix and match new recessive traits to come up with something that nobody has seen before. Now that is all I am going to say about the sulfur lavs.

Bottom line is start breeding for sevaral years on a given trait and try picking (unnatural selection) for the color, shade and abberacies and you might discover that 10 years down the line and a couple generations later you may find out you have something a little different or A LOT DIFFERENT. If you are good at it and have the eye. I know it must be a surprise for some of you that nature can and does do this as well . But then again to make it totally natural breeding you would have to put 20 snakes of say the south florida kinsg into a bag. Shake them up and then kill the smallest and the weaest. Then shake the bag again and pull out two . No peeking now...okay now breed those two together and that would be closer to natural selection. No picking for shade, color, abberancy ect. Thing is in nature abberanceis and morphs (especially double triple morphs is a impossibiliy.

Here is an interesting pic:

It is a natural cross. It really has nothing to do with the s. florida "brooksi" or anything to do with the above comments on the sulfur lavs.. Just something to chew on for those that beleive in certain looks and other beautiful man made crosses. Nature does cross and it makes new and unapreciated forms to this generation but that does not mean the next few years certain abberancies don't happen and that people like yourself or some other here won't take a liking to these forms. Just a observation I took of people who have been in the hobby and just wanted textbook forms and have since taken a liking to the newest and most unusual forms that some of us have strived for many years.

This guy here is definently a Florida King but is also an old "Brooksi"?? What do you guys think?? He's definently VERY different than a typical FL King, and I would be mad if they were all called the same.

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Matt from Minnesota

very well put imho ,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Can we talk? Thanks for the post. Now you know you are “one of those guys that loves to go on...” Just between you and me... I became partly obsessed with the hypo Brooks from the moment I saw them listed on a price list from Vince Schiedt ?? They were listed for $600.00 each. I ended up getting hets for $300.00 each. At was around that same time I got price lists from both Tim Ricks and Chris Cullotta. Both were listing axanthic and albino Brooks. I thought what’s up with all these new Brooks, like, overnight? The thing that bothered me at the time, both Chris and Tim sent pictures, and it was the exact photo. I learned they were partners or somehow connected. I was basically told they were from a project from Tim Ricks and Steve Osborne. The Professional Breeders website says the lavender Brooks was produced from wild caught parents probably caught around Lake Okeechobee. (Florida King, not Brooks) Of the axanthic trait, they say the locality of origin is unknown. Wasn’t Lloyd Lemke the first for these? Sulpher? Lavender? Where are these from? I want to trace these further back than this, if possible, before it is too murky for anyone to remember. If it goes back much further you get to a time when we were like, “no yellow- it’s a weird one”. We didn’t know from axanthic. These dream Brooks we take so casually today were a real prize back then (actually, I think we did call them dream back then) We certainly didn’t confuse them with Florida kings. We would find some fairly dark, or regular Florida types even in extreme Brooks territory, as I am sure not every corn is gorgeous in Okeetee Hunt Club. We would say we caught a Florida king, not a Brooks just cause that’s what was suppose to be caught there. I wonder if these can be traced to wild caught Brooks ordered from Glades Herp way back when they had nice ones. These were probably the founder stock of most breeders, and in a way, would have a limited gene pool and these odd traits could have easily popped up in someones line. I would like to know if anyone knows more about the lineage. I would love to know these are at least not mixed with albino California or albino something else (isn’t that what Chris says?) I don’t mind bringing it up cause I admit I do not know for sure. Maybe we will find out they are real Brooks. That would be great. I haven’t gotten around to searching the archives yet...

Since you mentioned searching the archives I should tell you the posts you'd be searching for were by Rainer. So you don't have to waste any time digging, you got him right here. A few years back at a crummy pet shop near Davie Florida I saw some of the most purple Axanthic Brooksi I have ever seen, I think they were $300 a piece. I still have never seen any quite like those....wonder where the heck those came from? Tom Stevens

I recall a posting from you that said they came from "Dream Kings". Dream kings are an Andy Barr creation from near Tampa locale Florida kings... at best. The Sulfur kings that Len Krysko sold were also supposed to be from near Tampa.

Lavender brooks/Florida kings are known or said to have originated in 3 or 4 ways - cal kings, canefield kings, Holey Land kings (near canefields), and near-Tampa kings.

None of the localities mentioned are places where brooksi would have been found. Brooksi are from southern Dade and Monroe counties.

The sulfur did not come from the dream kings which are a goini x floridana.

They are from the yellow sulfur kings.

Here is a pic from Brandon osborne. The yellow one is the sulfur. The ones I saw were even yellower than this:

I had the dream kings that andy barr and Mike falcon partnered together. Bought them in '92-93 I beleive. I raised them up and sold them to a calif breeder in 2000.

Andy bred a lot of things. He pioneered a lot of hybrids. Unfortunatly some people discounted the fact he bred pure as well as hybrid stuff. Most of the cool hybrds carried by big name breeders like Mark Bell came from Andy Barr stock. Andy also bred a lot of pure stuff. It was just hard to nail him down after asking him questions, LOL! To bad he is not around the hobby any longer.

It's too bad he's not in the business any longer, I'd meant to get some stuff from his lines.

While we're on the subject though, what's this all about http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=537328,537328&key=2004
?

Oh okay okay . Now I get where some of this confusion comes from.

I used the term Dream king because I liked it. As the '04 post says the dream = a sulfur brooksi. I guess since Andy had made up cool names like Fruition kings, Dream kings that the like I liked tham and used them myself. Some of these names like "snow" in rosy boas and Calif kings mean different things as well. For some a true snow is a white snake that is from w/c animals and can be a naturally occuring morph yet it lacks yellow, red and black pigments. Or it can not be a morph but as an example a calif king that has been selectivly bred through the newpry line to eliminate all yellow and procing a white or mostly white snake. To others a snow could be a double het reccessive trait resulting from a or - albino x axanthic or anerythristic. The trouble with slinging these terms around it confuses the masses. Since then i have decided to always use the very best defintive way to identify a morph or hybrid. I no longer use terms like Imperial, Dream, Painted, Jurassic ect . Instead just mark em for what they are . Except for the sulfurs ..heh heh. Hey marketing is a big deal in selling snakes.

EX:

Jurassic= honduran x fl. king - cal king
Imperial= Pueblin x albino banana king

well at leat most know the origins of the bannana coming from a newport cal king. Anyway I am on another tangent. Doesn't anyone go to sleep around here?

I'll check back in a couple days. Its my Birthday tommorow (today actually) and we are going to the beach.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

...as Rainer said, when they're a product of breeders' selections things change. After a few generations none are from a locale other than someone's snake room.
Now, what is/was Brooksi? Can you show me a pic? Can I find one on the KS classifieds? How about a FL king? Comparisons?
To me they're all floridana. I use FL king and brooksi on the same snake sometimes (not to intentionally mislead anyone but in conversation)and I use "peninsula intergrade" only sparingly because I'm too lazy to spit it out or type it.
Then there's Pinellas, etc.
Anyway, I've certainly seen some of the highest band counts on animals from around the Lake. Higher than most from farther south. Believe me I love the high band counts. But I don't think I'd ever call those brooksi. Most are too dark as well.
So it would be a combination of a very light creamy snake with a high band count that fades into the ground color and from the locale of the "originals" along the limestone canals, and (in a perfect world) to me that would be a brooksi.
I've hatched out snakes from adults fitting the bill above and still had a fairly wide variation. Should you cull the best, call those brooksi and the rest floridana?
Here's one that I particularly like (not mine but I have sibs)that has it all except the high band count.

The biggest problem is not with the snakes but with people who intentionally, usually for monetary gain, deceive others.
I would say that most, if not all, on this forum would not be in that group!
Maybe we could get some really nice pics posted now, huh?
:Mark
by the way, that is a vey nice sulfur Lav!

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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I tell ya Mark, I call many of the morphs Brooksi by habit. I have quite a few hets, and if I raise them and they stay dark I still catch myself saying Brooksi....and then follow it up with but it looks more like a classic Floridana or something. I totally agree with you question.....where are the Brooksi? If a snake is very brightly colored,....I will tend to say Brooksi. That is it for me...not to go off topic but when discussing things like inbreeding, breeding too young, defects in hatchlings,,,I ask where the people are who have experienced these things first hand? I almost never hear anything...and if I do it is I knew a guy who knew a guy who had a friend that bred sibs together and they were defective or something to that effect. I got a real nice female from Mark Lucas, the males he had were even nicer and I regret not buying one now...I bought a Hypo instead. I have to wonder how yellow those babies would have been...here's a pic Tom Stevens

When I first came into this hobby, I was expecting everything that came with the tag "brooksi" to be a true Southern Dade county locale kingsnake that would grow up to look like a big banana... well you know what I mean, I expected them to fit every word of the old definition "brooksi".

Very Nice tom...I Like that one!

Very nice Tom! I can't believe my male has lasted as long as it has....especially priced at hatchling prices.lol. Again, very nice!

Brandon Osborne