Reptile & Amphibian Forums

has anyone here done this or know who has. I would like to see pictures.

Yeah. Nature did it. It's called a thayeri, lol.
BDR

I about lost it and bit my tongue off on that BR.

That's probably the funnest thing I heard today.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

Thaks, both of you, but you know, it is probably real closeto the truth. Clearly, thayeri is a wild occuring example of hybridization that has not stablized yet. It is in truth probably a hybrid between alterna and triangulum, though certainly mexican may be involved. After all, they are just to "variable", right?LOL.
BDR

It is definitly not "clear". Graybands are theorized to be mimics of Crotalus lepidus (for alterna phase) and Copperheads (for Blair's phase). It is just as likely thayeri is mimmicing lepidus and coralsnakes.

ok, whatever, thanks for straightening me out. Glad to have such an authoritative lecture on the subject. All the best.
BDR

>>Thaks, both of you, but you know, it is probably real closeto the truth. Clearly, thayeri is a wild occuring example of hybridization that has not stablized yet. It is in truth probably a hybrid between alterna and triangulum, though certainly mexican may be involved. After all, they are just to "variable", right?LOL.
>>BDR

Yes i also think that could be closer to the truth, as for the mimic factor we all know thats only a theory. iv been hybridizing the mentioned groups for quit some time and to be honest im never really surprized by the results, their isnt much of a visable hybrid factor ie everything turns up no more varible than what you would expect from pure strains.
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************* Oh no its Me again *************

I would like to see what happened if you told your theory to the guys in the mexicana forum. Most of the thayeri guys seem to hate hybrids.

When doing this cross do you still get the color variability? Like the really orange thayeri? or the white ones?

>>I would like to see what happened if you told your theory to the guys in the mexicana forum. Most of the thayeri guys seem to hate hybrids.
>>
>>When doing this cross do you still get the color variability? Like the really orange thayeri? or the white ones?

kirkpatrick , i know what you mean, and i wouldnt even bother.

And yes the the variability is just the same, and you still get the distinct colour change from sib to adult.

A couple of young first timers

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************* Oh no its Me again *************

I wasn't suggesting I start anything. I just was just thinking about how it might go over. I don't care for all the arguments about hybrids

Hey Grinch. Thanks. I have thought that about thayeri for a long time. Animals that unstable genetically are not a homozygous gene pool and represent some form of intergradation/hybridization fromthe past. Such things are not so uncommon in the wild (as so many want to pretend). Just like Grinch said, I wouldnt bother even mentioning it to the grayband people. They have a belief system (belief system = something you are willing to hurt other people over, but have no hard proof of), and thus they are not able to discuss or listen to other viewpoints. THey know everything. They have seen the light. Moses brought the pure, sacred thayeri down off that mountain, and they know it! As Frank Herbert said in Dune, "When dealing with fanatics, your miracles must be better than theirs>" LOL, and I just cant be bothered. That's why I am on the hybrid board and never go on any of the others. I dont want to have to produce miracles for the masses, lol, but that doesnt keep me from seeing the writing on the wall and the thayeri's message is written in blood (genes). I agree that the "mimic" theory is weak. That implies some kind of genetic intelligence on the part of an animal population. While animals that look like another animal that is dangerous might be avoided by other animals, these are the ones man is most likely to kill, and man has been in that area for at lest 13,000 years, so why havent they enmasse change dto notlook dangerous to avoid man's predation? Any mimicry would be purely accidental parellel evolution and to say that a species is mainfesting two forms of it or more, specifically as mimicry, is just stretching the argument a bit thin for credulity, to my understanding of populations and genetics, at least.
BDR

These are semifossorial snakes, they are very secretive. They live in very rugged terrain some of which man has probably not even set foot to this day. Man has not been seeking them out to kill them. Mortality from man has only occured on a sporadic basis to individual snakes that just happen to cross their paths.

My example didnt have anything to do with thayeri in particular, but really cool how you twist it into that. Thats a really cool talent; putting words in other peoples mouths. Many other forms of "mimics" do live in close relation to man and do get killed because they are mistaken for coral snakes. I lived in florida for years and I saw that happen several times with scarlets, but hey what do I know, right? I just saw it. Now let's see what you can twist this into. Here is what I am going to do. I am going to agree to disagree with you and leave it it that. Maybe you can do the same?
BDR

You started off your paragraph with "I have thought about thayeri a long time". You continue with "animals this unstable..." basicly are defacto hybrids. You then say "grayband people have a belief system" and equate that belief system with other belief systems in which people "are willing to hurt others" for.
Then you further equate grayband people with religious zealots who think they recieved divine revelation like the 10 commandments.
You then say people have been "living in this area for 13,000 years...". What area? Since you started your paragraph with thayeri I reasoned you were still refering to them.
I never even said thayeri couldn't be a hybrid. I said it wasn't conclusive, that an alternate theory was dual mimicry. There are many possiblities, few of which have even been explored in depth. I would even say a legitamite theory is that hybridzation with thayeri is responsible for the milksnake phase in thayeri and that mimicry helped retain it. So no cannot agree to disagree because I never disagreed with you. I only said the claim that thayeri is positively a hybrid was not true.

In my defense I would also like to say that not once here or on any other forum have I said I was opposed to hybrids. I have always tried to make it clear that hybriders should be respected and allowed to persue their intrests like anybody else. While I have often said that hybrids have permeated the hobby I have always said it is "purists" responsiblity to make sure thier animals are "pure" and that the standard of purity is relative.
I have also always liked your posts but this one has taken me by suprise because you have made a simple statement with minimal suppoting arguement and when questioned have resorted to name calling. I would be very interested in hearing more about why you think thayeri's polymorphism indicates hybridization, perhaps some examples are known in other animals?

Kingmilk, With all due respect. Your theory about thayeri is hogwash. Where did you get your information?