Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I brought this subject up several times in the past but all I got back was bits and pieces for an answear.All those tips were very helpful indeed but they don't seem to solve the problem.I just finished building a 315 gal. screen terrarium for my veiled cham and I am thinking of how to feed loose crickets in the terrarium,is there a way to retrieve crickets from a cage this size?Lots of plants and vines,how can you get them back and replace with gut loaded ones and have your cham constantly eating gut loaded prey?Is there a way that you do this job or you just do the best you can?

PS:How do you think of the size of the cage for a male veiled?

I can't think of any way to retrieve the crickets in a cage of that size...so why not just provide the crickets with a gutload of fruits, veggies and greens in a jar lid on the floor of the cage? Its not a "complete" gutload, but should be good enough when your chameleon would also be getting other "fresh" insects...and it provides food for your veiled too.

Some of my cages (not chameleons...because I use no substrate in them) have a constant population of crickets that feed on the veggies, greens, fruits that I provide for the omnivore lizards and turtles that live in those cages. The crickets seem healthy and so do the reptiles that are feeding on them....so I would think that the crickets in a chameleon cage would be kept healthy enough this way too.

I have catch stray crickets that are loose in my house by putting a container that is tall enough that the crickets can't jump out of on the floor with a "y" shaped branch that touches the floor outside the container, but only overhangs the container...the crickets climb up the branch and fall into the container and eat the food that I have used to lure them there.

Sorry if these suggestions aren't what you are looking for....but its all that I can think of.

You said..."PS:How do you think of the size of the cage for a male veiled?"....sounds like quite a big cage. I'm not good with gallons...what are the dimensions (roughly)?

I would really try bolw feeding dude. Good way to regulate how much crix your cham is actually eating...

If you arent goin' to bowl feed, then maybe place a paper plate in the corner of a cage with apples on it to attract them. There is no gaurantee that they will even go to the plate at all! Most likely they will cause absolute HELL in your chams cage. They will chew on him in his sleep...not good! They will also eat your plants and lay eggs in the soil. When the eggs hatch the baby crix will also chew on your plants and then they will look for any place to escape and then you will have hundreds of little crix hoppin' around your house!

The choice is yours, but ultimately bowlf feeding is the best because any cricket on the loose will just cause bad things to occur.....
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Eric

I'm living in a room without any view
I'm living free because the rent's never due
The synonyms of all the things that I've said
Are just the riddles that are built in my head
Hole in the sky, take me to heaven
Window in time, through it I fly
( Pantera: Hole in the Sky)

I am not a fan of bowl feeding. IMHO it can cause not only lazy tongue but sometimes tongue injuries and doesn't give the chameleon the exercise that it would have if it has to chase the insects down.

Granted, bowl feeding would let you know better how many crickets your chameleon is eating and prevent some of the excess free-roaming cricket problem....but I still prefer allowing the chameleon to hunt the crickets down.

Just my opinion...

Your idea of having plants in there to provide food for loose crix is not a good idea. Like I said before, crix when they are loose can only cause no good. When gut loading crix they should be provided with a variety of foods to eat, not just on estaple food. In a cage, they would have limited access to a wide variety and would slowly deteriorate in their nutritional value.

Loose crix also cause stress to herps. They chew on them, they crawl on them, and they even can get the lizard sick (by biting him and then he gets an infection). Loos crix also destroy plants. They chew on them and leave unattractive dead spots on the leaves. With the soil of the plants, they lay hundreds of eggs and then you have tons of little baby crix hoppin' all over the place and just adding to your lizards stress. The lizard probably wont eat them cause they are too small to catch his attatnion.

Please re-consider your husbandry veiws. Im not trying to attack yuo, but im trying to help you. Please take this info into consideration..........
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Eric

I'm living in a room without any view
I'm living free because the rent's never due
The synonyms of all the things that I've said
Are just the riddles that are built in my head
Hole in the sky, take me to heaven
Window in time, through it I fly
( Pantera: Hole in the Sky)

You would have to have quite a colony of crickets to do the damage that you are speaking of. I find the worst problem with loose crickets is that they stink when the die and are not easily found.

I agree, cup feeding can minimize the problem but not all chams will cup feed. My new little panther will absolutley NOT cup feed and Luna very rarely hunted on her own. As kinyonga said, and I do the same thing, is to leave a small plate of dry gutload and a piece of orange, apple, or other fruit/veggie for the crix. Believe me, given the choice a cricket would much prefer to nibble on food that a sleeping cham. This happens when there is a constant supply free roaming crickets which are not given food to eat during the night (and day - if free ranging there should ALWAYS be healthy food available for them).

As for the crickets laying eggs in plant pots, eating the plants, etc. again, there would need to be many. If the substrate the eggs are in dry out the babies will not survive and they will also need a lot of food themselves for them to get to a point of taking over a cage. Now THAT is bad husbandry, not what K was saying.

anafranil - if your cham won;t cup feed only put in amounts you think he will eat and then leave food out as described above. As for collecting them, sometimes you can catch them by hand, but don;t sweat it if you can't. Just keep them to a minimum.

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she's back!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Eric, If you are not trying to attack someone, generally, it's better to leave it be. If Kinyonga was having trouble with his or her own husbandy, they would be posting their own discussion. The advice was not wrong per se, it was an incomplete thought and your reply was quite insulting.

Also, i'm only posting it, because many of your replies seem to be regurgitated information, or need to be written better. The way you say something is just as important as what you say. I'm sure other will agree with me.

Lastly, you replied on Kinyonga's reply, so the person who started the thread, will not receive an email in their inbox telling them to check their reply. Both of you posts were made to Kinyonga, and only Kinyonga. Keep that in mind when you need to direct your message to someone specific.

Have a nice night.
See you in the Chat maybe.
Will Hayward
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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

It appears that Lele is a much faster tper than I.
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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

I was just givin my 2 cents on the matter....Loose crix are never a good thing....

Hey lele, im pretty sure almost any cham would bowl feed. My little Tamatave, Rufous, he hated bowls, so i used something that was about 3 inches tall and box shaped....I think it wa made by glad...anyways...I would just pinch of the crix legs and they wouldnt be able to get out. He wasnt bothered or anything and he just ate...

Im not sure if that is an in stone rule, but that is my observation....

Guess i kinda over reacted though......
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Eric

I'm living in a room without any view
I'm living free because the rent's never due
The synonyms of all the things that I've said
Are just the riddles that are built in my head
Hole in the sky, take me to heaven
Window in time, through it I fly
( Pantera: Hole in the Sky)

hmmm...think I disagree with you on that "any cham will cup feed". it is not a natural way for them to feed - no big bowl of cheerios - or cricketos - in the trees! lol! But like any animal some will be more pliable than others - and that needs to be respected (in other words, don't starve your cham to force him to bowl feed.)

As for the way you write your posts. May I make a couple of suggestions? Cut down on the "dude." I know you are a young kid in SoCal but it can come across almost condescending (not saying you MEAN it that way, just saying how it can come across at times). Also, lighten up on the exclamation points!!!!!!!!!! It's sort of obnoxious and "sounds" like you are yelling. Something else you may try is write your reply but don't post it right away. Leave it alone, come back, re-read and put yourself on the receiver's end. It might help give you an idea of how you can sound. just a couple tips.

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she's back!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she's back!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Ok fine lele! i cant say dude!!!!!!or use too many exclamation marks!!!!!! LOL j/k

Ah well i wasn't trying to yell i just use loads of exclamation marks cause im an excentric DUDE and i like usin' them to make my typing sound powerful!!!!

They are just habits....if im gonna yell i'll put it like this IN ALL CAPS...yeah? I'm your typical so cal surfer bum and i NEED To use dude! You dont like me usin' dude then fine i can only please so many people. Im not trying to argue with ya, im just sayin that what your askin' of me is just irrational! LOL

Hey see my post up above about computer problems on the chatroom here on kingsnake.....it would be appreciated if you help..if ya help i might cut down on my daily DUDE usage.....
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Eric

I'm living in a room without any view
I'm living free because the rent's never due
The synonyms of all the things that I've said
Are just the riddles that are built in my head
Hole in the sky, take me to heaven
Window in time, through it I fly
( Pantera: Hole in the Sky)

Eric - did I say NEVER say DUDE again? No, I just said cut down. As for habits....well, they are learned behaviors and can be modified.

you said Im not trying to argue with ya, im just sayin that what your askin' of me is just irrational!

Again, these were JUST suggestions for you to get along a bit better on the forum and to be taken more seriously. I am not saying don't be "YOU" just remember your not hangin' with your 14 year old friends - many of us are your parents age - heck I am probably your grandmother's age! and converse more like adults (well, most of the time...)

If you take no other suggestion, take the one about reading your post (before hitting POST button) from the forum's point of view. Just trying to help you out here, not telling you WHO TO BE.

"grandma" lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she's back!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

...Oh, the other Eric...

Eric, (god it's weird addressing some other person with the same name as you)
Crickets running loose is not a bad thing. In fact, for some species bowl feedign is a bad thing. Kinyonga may have had experience with deremensis like this - the suckers will NOT move from tongue range of the bowl. Either that, or they ignore anything in a bowl, like mine do after a while.

Chameleons will usually go to a close range shot, if they know the prey is immobized. I've only seen fresh imports taking full-tongue-length shots at bugs in a bowl. they eventually get closer, and with time, eventually, their tongues will not shoot out their full length. It's like lifting weights, but not extending your arms - with time, it'll be harder to fully extend that joint.

I started cup feeding my veiled a few years ago. Within a few months, I noticed I could not get him to reach beyond 6 inches. So I started to strech his tongue. Hand feeding only, and I'd force him to shoot farther and farther every day. It took less than a month for his tongue to get back to full length. So if you bowl feed - don't JUST bowl feed.

In 13 years, the only part of a chameleon I've ever seen crickets attack is shed skin. Especially in big cages. It's not a huge deal that they might eat an occational cricket with little gutload or supplementation - the majority wil have full bellies.

Regardless of the rules and facts that you see - most everything about chameleon care is NOT written in stone, and there are many ways of doing almost everything.

The best way to free-feed crickets is to devise a slow release cup. I have a plastic container with the side cut out, and I place it next to the screen. The insects (even superworms) climb the screen. They almost always climb up, to the corners, where they feel secure, but are easy prey. I use this every once in a while. Most of the time, I like to hand feed, and then throw in a few crickets (literally, I throw them in )to scatter them in the trees. It takes my big melleri sometimes a few hours to get all of them in her densely lanted cage. But it's worth it to see her refine her hunting techniques. Whent hey ee a bowl, they know they dont' have to hunt, and they just chow down - it's boring.

OK, you will be Eric-A and beardiedude will be Eric-dude lol!

I really like your idea about hthe the container, with hole, up against screen! One of the those "why didn't I think of that" moments! Anyway, glad you did! Do you keep dust and some food in with them? What sort of container do you use? Can you post a pic? Not that I can't come up with something myself, but why overwork my brain?

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she's back!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Cricket usually sit in the top corners of the cage. Since some of my cage have angle bracent supports in the corners, I sometimes stick some cricket gutload cubes in the corners.
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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

I was a real half hearted design - I didnt' have time to do anything really
nice. What I have in mind, for a good design, is a plastic tub, a few
inches high. Cut it in half, and use thin wire to affix it to the screen, tight
enogh that insects can't fit through the gap. A taller tub will work better,
as it's easier to fix to the screen. I don't have any thin wires, so I just
wedged it between a plant and the screen, and it worked. Simple
enough.

I haven't used it in a while, now that I think about it.

What I noticed, was that my deremensis and my young veiled would
ignore food in a bowl, but would eat if it was on the screen or plants.
So, I devided a way to make it easier to throw in insects (just put them
in th econtainer), but give them access to the screen. For crickets, a
stick works fine - they can climb the stick, and get on the screen.
Superworms, if allowed to get to the screen usually climb it .

You could put dust in the bowl, but some may get out through the
screen. I generally don't put food in, as I dont' want to give them
incentive to stay in it!

if you are using the standard window screen you can buy screen "patches" or go to local hd'we store to get it cut from roll (like hd'we cloth). Not HD, I don't think they'll do it, but a REAL hd'we store should

I'll have to experiment since I now have a hunter - no bowl for this kid! Thanks for the tips!
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she's back!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

You said..."Kinyonga may have had experience with deremensis like this - the suckers will NOT move from tongue range of the bowl"...not with deremensis, although they are somewhat lazy about moving around the cage. Years ago, before I had deremensis, I tried bowl feeding and found that I didn't like the lack of exercise that the chameleons were getting and then, I started hearing about the lazy tongues that were resulting, so I just stopped using bowls.

Regarding crickets nibbling chameleons, I have had it happen to a veiled that was in a stupor while laying eggs before I learned not to allow insects in the cage when the female was laying her eggs. I also had one batch of crickets from a different breeder that were terrible for trying to nibble chameleons. I think it might have had something to do with the way they were raised....lacking something in their diet, maybe?

You said..."It's not a huge deal that they might eat an occational cricket with little gutload or supplementation - the majority wil have full bellies"...its a little like us eating "junk food" once in a while...we don't die from it if its not all the time.

Your slow-release cup is an interesting idea...something similar is used in zoos and I know of several people that use that idea with their chameleons too.

You said..."Regardless of the rules and facts that you see - most everything about chameleon care is NOT written in stone, and there are many ways of doing almost everything"...so true! This is why I usually say "this is what I do and it works for me" in a lot of my posts.

I hear people talk about how bad deremensis are with bowl feeding. I have tried to avoid it, they're lazy enough as it is. An interesting thing happened with one of my fresh import female deremensis.

She was 12" long total length, and sitting in her tree in my old free range setup. I was dusting some crickets in a bowl, and went to put the lid back on the repcal. I set the bowl downon the ground, below the tree. As I go back to pick up the bowl, bang, she nailed one. I took out a tape measure, and held it up against her as she shot again - 19". She shot her tongue NINTEEN inches. I was amazed. Deremensis have short tails, so it's not as weird as you'd think. But man... 19" tongue on a 12" animal.

For chameleons in smaller screen cages, I used an exoterra cricket rock that I got for free. Put the bugs in with some supplement, and the come out, one at a time. It works pretty well for a commercial product!

First of all, I did not suggest having plants in the cage to provide food for the loose crickets...I suggested that a jar lid of things that I use to gutload the crickets (greens like dandelions, mustard greens, collards, kale; veggies like diced red pepper, squash, slightly cooked sweet potato, carrots, etc.) be placed in the cage. Its almost the same thing that I would give the crickets as a gutload...so when the crickets eat it they would be almost fully gutloaded...would not lose much of their nutritional value and do not deteriorate. I have done this for years....and no harm has come to my chameleons and my cages have not been full of baby crickets.

Admittedly I could have also said to dust the food in the container with some calcium powder and said that I also provide a branch in the cage that the chameleon can/will sleep on that the crickets can't get to.

If this is done properly, there shouldn't be a build up of crickets in the cage, since the chameleon should eat some of the "excess crickets"...which can be encouraged by not adding a lot of new ones at a time. (I also did not say not to try to keep the numbers of excess crickets down.)

You said..."Loos crix also destroy plants. They chew on them and leave unattractive dead spots on the leaves"...when they are provided with proper food in the jar lid, I have never had crickets destroy my plants. I have had some female veileds that strip leaves off my pothos plants though.

As far as reconsidering my husbandry views...I have been keeping chameleons since the late 80's and breeding them since the mid 90's...my veileds now live for over 6 years (females included), my hatching rate for veileds' fertile eggs is close to 100%, my survival rate for my hatchlings after two months is 95%...I've kept quite a few of them for their whole life and they are/were healthy too. I have had good survival with fischer's, panthers, deremensis, C. chameleons (all WC's)...just to name a few.I have not had a CB chameleon to the vets for over 5 years now (maybe longer)....and that's because none needed to go, not because I neglect them.

Just explaining a few things...no offense intended. Not saying that I do everything "perfect". There are still not things that I have to learn about chameleons....I will always have more to learn. People can make their own choices concerning the advice I give...and take it or not.

Lele and Will...thanks for the words of defence!

how do you manage that? Crickets are acrobats - how do you keep them away from a particular branch? Very curious!! :-O
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she's back!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I live in a cold and dry winter climate.The sides and back of my cage are glass (frosted) because I keep the cages in a row. I know how "everyone" says glass is a no-no because it stops air-flow....but then they proceed to cover the sides of the cages over with plastic or other material to keep the humidity in when they live in the cooler areas and/or to keep the chameleons from seeing each other....which also impedes air-flow. I have never had a problem with reflections in the glass bothering the chameleons either. I think it was on this forum recently that someone said that chameleons learned not to react to a mirror...well, they generally don't react to the glass either.

The glass also gives me extra surfaces to mist without spraying my walls or ending up with water on the floor of the room.

Now...for suspending the branch...I use those things that people use on the end of a dowel to put in the closet to hang clothes on to hang/suspend the branches. They can be bought with sticky tape on the back of them (and a hole for the nail, which I don't use, of course) which will stick to the glass. This way the branch can be placed far enough away from anything else in the cage that the chameleon can get to it but that a cricket cannot reach the branch (or the tail) of the sleeping chameleon...and it can also be placed in an area where the chameleon would like to sleep.

Like Eric(adrignola) said....with chameleon care, nothing is written in stone! I do what works for me (and the chameleons)!

do your chams tend to always sleep in the same place? Luna had a bout 3 or 4 favorites and would change every few days. Cyrus seems to have found a favorite, but I am sure this will change, too.

thanks!
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she's back!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Most of the time my chameleons chose to sleep in the same place. One or two of them will sleep in a couple of different places...it could be a "seasonal" thing with some of them.

It's hard to bring up glass, as so many people will ridicule you for it.

In my experience, airflow can be chieved with good circulation - like a
fan in the room. Also, I've come to believe reflections are not the major
concern with chameleons - transparency is.

If the chameleons can get to the glass, they'll try to get through it, as
they dont' recognize it. If they have a nice cage, and don't have any
reason to roam, you don't have any problem.

The absolute best chameleon cages I've seen were glass or acrylic
fronted, with screen sides. The glass was not near any branches, so the
chameleons couldn't reach it - and they would't spend time stressing out
trying to climb through it.(and it stayed clean - no paw prints!). There
was plenty of airflow with screen sides.

The only time a reflection seems to cause a problem is if the light in the
room is very dark - it makes it more reflective.

As long as you have good circulation and ventilation, and the chameleon
isn't able to paw at the glass - a glass door (or back)is fine. An all glass
enclosure has so many drawbacks, it's almost never worth it, in my
opinion.

Funny story - a guy came into the pet store I used to work at in 96. He was gettign some CB jacksonii to put in his new cage. He built it himself , and put $300 into it. It was 5'x4'x2'deep, with waterfalls, live plants, trees, and 3D background, with plants mounted in it. he showed me a pic - very nice.

I asked "Did you use a large mirror for the back of the cage?"

He did.

The background had several parts that were 3D outcroppings, for plants and the waterfall - like what you'd see in a nice dart frog setup. But the rest was all mirror! My god this guy was pissed. He didn't want to hear it that a mirrored background wasn't the best thing for a male Jacksonii.

You said..."It's hard to bring up glass, as so many people will ridicule you for it"...I used to cringe every time someone asked me about my caging....but then I decided that they should know the truth. When I first started keeping chameleons, I kept them all in aquariums and they even had solid lids. I had many (all WC's) that lived for 5 or more years in those aquariums...with no respiratory problems, etc. It definitely takes some know-how to achieve it though...and I soon started using screen lids...and then progressed from there.

I still don't like all screen cages (for me for where I live) because all the heat is under the basking light and when the chameleon moves away from that area, most of the rest of the cage is not as warm as it should be so they tend to sit under the basking light for most of the day. It makes me think of how we would go to the cottage in the winter time (just to check that the snow wasn't going to cave the roof in, etc.) and just end up sitting huddled in blankets close to the fireplace there because the rest of the room was too cold.

IMHO airflow can still be created in an aquarium with a screen lid by placing the basking light at one end. (I almost always used aquariums that were longer than they were high.)

I can remember many years ago, my vet trying to get a male chameleon to open his mouth so we could look inside by showing him a mirror. He had no reaction to it.

Good story about the mirror on the back of the cage though! I wouldn't try it.