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Questions about breeding...

waspinator421 Apr 05, 2006 08:35 PM

I posted this in the general forum, but decided to post it here as well, per someone's suggestion.

.......

I am still considering getting a few kingsnakes and attempt to breed them. I was wondering if any here could provide me with, or direct me to, information about selective breeding? I've been researching the best that I know how, and haven't come up with much. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places.

I am especially interested in the thayeri, and would like to know how best to breed for a specific color, trait, pattern, etc. I would probably get some regular california kings as well, but not sure if I'd try mixing them with thayeri at this point.

Also, about how many snakes is a good place to start for breeding? Male/Female ratio?

Any pointers or nudges in the right direction will be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger & Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)

Replies (10)

waspinator421 Apr 07, 2006 12:12 PM

You don't need to tell me everything...if I could at least be pointed in the right direction, or linked to a site w/ information. Any help appreciated! Thanks!
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger & Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)

kingaz Apr 07, 2006 01:32 PM

Thought you would get a better response here, but maybe not. Not too many on this forum, including me, would recommend cross breeding a cal king to a thayeri because we're interested in keeping the bloodlines clean. With thayeri, you can breed for traits like ground color, reduced black, saddle type, etc. but they don't call thayeri variable kingsnakes for nothing. You will get leonis phase animals and milksnake phase animals, and variation in pattern and color all in the same clutch. If you breed two thayeri with an orange ground color to each other, you will most likely get hatchlings that have orange as a ground color. There are not the usual mutations and morphs you see in other subspecies of snakes like alninos, hypos, etc..
As far as how many animals you want to start breeding, that's up to you. Obviously you need at least 1 pair. 1 male could mate with several females, so you could get 1 male and a few females. If you want to breed for several different traits, you may want several pairs of different ground colors, saddle types, etc..

Greg

waspinator421 Apr 09, 2006 01:26 AM

Yeah, I don't really have plans to pair a cal and theyeri, but I am not closed minded to the idea. Thanks so much for your information... it really helps! Have a wonderful week!
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger & Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)

waspinator421 Apr 09, 2006 01:29 AM

When I re-read what I posted... it kind of sounded like I was calling you "closed minded" - I didnt intend that. Just that I havent thrown that idea completely out the window yet. Ha! Sorry if I sounded rude!
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger & Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)

mexicanamak Apr 09, 2006 03:59 AM

Something to think about...

By creating a hybrid, or a cross for that matter... with thayeri or any other kingsnake from Mexico because it looks cool, you are essentially doing your small part in destroying the captive population of those animals available to us here in the US. We can no longer capture and import these snakes from Mexico. What we have now is most likely all that we may have for a very long time.

If you continue to educate yourself enough about this, you will discover that not everyone behind you will honestly represent the offspring from hybrid breeding programs as hybrids; either by simply not caring enough, or just plain not knowing any better. Eventually, no matter how hard you try, a percentage of your hybrid/cross breeding program offspring will filter out into the captive population represented as one or the other, when they are actually both. Someone just beginning like yourself may end up with these crosses or hybrids thinking they are pure, so naturally they will label all offspring they produce as pure, one or the other. I'm sure you can easily see how over time if too many breeders continue to do this, it could really begin to spoil the pot much more than it already has. Matter of fact... unless you are really careful and are willing to pay a good price and buy from a reputable breeder who works hard to maintain pure lines, you just may go out and buy yourself a couple of mixed animals to begin with.

Now, let's pretend and say you already know all of this and don't care that much, you just want to produce cool and unusual looking snakes to sell. Who are you going to sell them to... and how many people concerned about this issue are going to want to have anything to do with your snakes? The majority will know something is up just by looking. It is possible in this scenario that if you decide to, you will have a hard time establishing yourself and building a good reputation.

Worst case scenario is, and I say scenario meaning I don't absolutely positively feel it is definitely going to happen, if the pure lines of these snakes at some point disappear from captivity, that's pretty much going to be it. Continue studying the animals and then make your decision as to what you feel is the best thing to do.

Mike

waspinator421 Apr 09, 2006 02:45 PM

Yes, I do see your point on this subject. Like I said before, I don't plan to start off breeding hybrids. Who knows, I may never do so. I really appreciate your information, I will definetely keep it in mind for the future.

By the way, since I am just beginning, how can I be sure that I am purchasing a pure snake? Are there little red flags to look out for that would indicate a hybrid?

Thanks again!
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger & Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)

mexicanamak Apr 09, 2006 07:16 PM

I'm glad you understand and don't get me wrong on the hybrid issue, some of them are incredibly good looking and personally I don't have a serious issue with crossing native species/subspecies that can be legally collected and replenished. Messing with the ones that are out of reach is what really bothers me.

Finding good ones isn't at all difficult after you've been around a while and get to know a few folks that work with them. One of the best places to learn and start looking is right here in the Mexicana forum. Asking questions is the best safeguard with someone you know nothing about, so don't be afraid to speak up when looking. If a seller can't tell you much about where his breeders came from, that would be a major red flag. And if the seller gives you a good story, go further and check it out to be sure.

Judging by looks isn't at all easy given so much variability and the red flags are sometimes so discrete not everyone can see them. Only the most experienced trained eyes can spot things at times and that's not 100%. It takes years and years of experience to be reasonably good at it. I'm personally not very good at it yet so like you I have to be extra careful. I generally make it easy on myself and only buy from the most well known and respected in the hobby. The animals might cost you a little more but it sure is worth it!

Mike

waspinator421 Apr 09, 2006 11:14 PM

Thanks for your help. There is a reptile show coming here in 2 weeks, and I'm going to see what they have there. I will definetely be questioning the purity of the breeders' snakes, as you suggested. Hopefully they'll be some good ones there!

Thanks again!
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger & Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)

APLAXAR Apr 10, 2006 12:21 AM

Very Nicely said Mike.

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1.2 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA (1.0 ALBINO/ 0.2 HYPO)
1.1 CORNS SNAKES (0.1 SNOW/ 1.0 STRIPEDSUNGLOW)
0.1 REDFOOT TORTOISE
1.0 LEOPARD TORTOISE
0.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 HORNED FROG
0.0.1 TADPOLES

KenCasstevens Apr 10, 2006 06:15 AM

Definately couldn't have said it better myself, Mike. Good job.
Ken

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