Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Let me preface my post by stating that my first snake was a Cal King. I have kept Pueblans for the past few years.

The other day (on a whim) I went into a Pet Shop in Nashville where in the reptile area I saw, as you would imagine, imported Savannah Monitors, grass lizards, and skinks. In the bottom right tank I noticed a yellow and black banded tail poking out from behind a hide box. I knew immediately what I was looking at.

I called the clerk over and asked that she open the tank for me. It was a malnurished, half dead, very young Cal King. He had loose skin hanging, dented scales, and was incredibly lethargic. Did I mention that they had crickets in there for him to eat and SWORE that he was, in fact, eating them?

I paid the high price($70)for him while in rescue mode, knowing that I may just be taking a bath for $70 because he was on death's door.

I got him home and force fed an adult mouse tail. A few days later I pushed a severed pinkie head in his face. His reaction was an anger bite, and afterward his feeding response kicked in and he ate the head, on which I had put a droplet of Tetra Rid Worm - I assumed that he had worms who knows what had been in that dirty pet store substrate prior to his unfortunate arrival.

I have not tried to feed him for a couple of days. He is much more active and now cruises his tank inquisitively. I know we are not "out of the woods", but I am cautiously optomistic.

Has anyone else done anything stupid like this?

BTW I remembered how much I loved Cal Kings when he chomped into that pinkie head out of anger. I have seen Pueblans run from live prey, and Cal Kings constrict two mice at a time. I know Callis are the small Kings, but Getula in general are awesome. I often feel sorry for new owners that get seduced by the size and popularity of some of the exotic boas and pythons. They don't know what they are missing out on.

Please comment.

Thanks

I have done things like that before. It's called having compassion, caring, etc. Like most herpers, I hate to see the wanted ads asking for our unwanted reptiles. I've never placed those type of ads but I have done rescues before. A rosy boa that I thought was going to die before I got her home. Had to give it water with a syringe and hand feed it for weeks. Adult pueblan milks that were kept together in a 10 gallon tank. Then a couple of live mice were dropped in and the owner would walk away. They were chewed up from head to tail and one was missing an eye. I did these types of rescues early on but can no longer take the risk. Once I was done with the rehab program I would put the snakes up for sale in my annual "Feed the Homeless" sale. I try to have the sale every year, late October to early November and donate all the sales to the LA Mission to feed the homeless during Thanksgiving.
My collection has grown in size and value and I just can't take the chance. In the future I plan on having a separate room for the snakes and a separate room for quarantine. Then I'll be willing to take in reptiles that need proper care.

I have for months spoken to a pet shop in my area about how their reptiles are not kept well...finally a few weeks back I went in and found TWO dying cornsnakes in a cage with two other corns. I have watched these corns the last few months and commented on how they are dehydrated, and too thin. The pet store has grown to trust me and my knowledge, so I had them take them out for me and I tried all I could to save them but they were dehydrated and emaciated and died that night.

That was a big wake up call for the owner of that store and now we have scheduled for me to come in and do a workshop with her employees this weekend about reptile and amphibian care. I created a lot of typed up documentation to leave with them as well to hand out to new employees. I know pet store people are not bad people but lets face it , most of them seem to like the cute furry cuddly animals, not reptiles. So the herps get neglected quite a bit out of ignorance and favoritism to mammals. They do need knowledge though and I dont beleive in complaining but not TRYING to make a difference so I shall try. If stores are open to improving, then great, if not, then many suffer and hopefully more people like you will save them when they can.

Thanks for taking your money, time and energy to save this Cal. I beleive in at least some little ways, our efforts make a difference.

Dawn,

What you are doing is really great. I have found that the care sheets on Kingsnake.com are a good place to start for any beginner - be they pet store employee or newbie to the hobby.

When the clerk at the pet store told me that the snake had been eating crickets, I found it hard not to flip. It sounds like you have kept your cool and been really helpful to your local store.

Thanks for the post.

It's great that you got that type of response from the petstore owner. I tried numerous times to politely bring up issues with one petstore when I lived back in florida and the response was always the owner basically telling me he had a vet who said the animals were fine and didn't care what I thought.

The animals in question included a pair of dehydrated rainbow boas (kept in a cage together with a water dish that I never saw filled up), a juvie blood python with mouthrot and a shed problem, and a boa & burm both clearly suffering from RIs.

Unfortunately at the time I couldnt afford to help any of the animals especially considering how overpriced the owner was attempting to sell them for. In the end, I just stopped going and instead choose to drive about twice as far to get to a decent shop when I needed something.

John,
I appreciate the comment. I put the "stupid" part in to stave off the whole "by buying from them you are perpetuating the practice" schpeel. I still may get it....we'll see.

JP

You were partially stupid. I'm the owner of a major reptile specialty store, and I see that kind of thing all the time. By buying these animals, you're only encouraging these scumbags to do more of the same! Dawn is doing the right thing-encouraging the store to help itself, but not paying them to do things the cheap and easy way. Some stores are like the one she is working with-open to improvement with at least some real concern for the animals. But many pet stores are owned by businessmen, not animal lovers-and usually these folks will not give a flying *expletive deleted* about the herps,as long as they get their cash! If you can talk a store out of a dying animal, fine-but for God's sake, don't become part of the problem by paying them for it!

Brad Chambers

Ha,

I don't know which turns me off more. An ignorant clerk at a chain pet store that thinks kings eat crickets, or breeder elitists that scoff at newbie questions on forums and call others who may have a genuine love, compassion, and fond sense of nostalgia for a particular animal "partially stupid".

We do have an excellent reptile specialty shop in Nashville where I do most of my business. I purchased my first (very healthy) cal king there over 8 years ago. I found them to be more than helpful, and armed with everything from basic husbandry information to breeding tips. I would imagine that had the owners or employees of that establishment called me "partially stupid", I would have most likely very promptly exited the hobby.

Do me a favor and send me an email with the name of your business. I don't want to accidentally purchase anything from you.

Signed,

Stupid and Lil' Half-Dead (the rescued cal king)

I'll admit I was wrong-if you promise me you'll continue to go back to that store each month and purchase each new "starving lil king" that they get in to replace the ones you so obligingly pay them for!

Seriously, this isn't a question of elitism-it's very simply a matter of doing the right thing-taking those actions which will give the most benefit to the most animals in the long run. please, think-what would be the consequences if everyone followed your example??? I feel deeply the pain and suffering of animals like your little king-thats why I strongly disagree with your actions, because in a few weeks there will be another suffering little animal in the cage you left vacant. And a bad store will still be in business.

By the way, I'm proud to say that my store is Animal Dreams, in N. Syracuse NY.

Brad Chambers

Brad,

I will admit that I was wrong if you are able to organize a nationwide reptile purchasing boycott at all General Animal and General Merchandise Non-Specialty pet stores, or are in some way able to convince federal and local governing bodies that they should allow only reputable and/or otherwise “certified” pet stores to sell reptiles.

I think rather highly of myself. However, I seriously doubt that my purchase affected either the store’s purchasing policies or otherwise “kept them in business”. Being a business owner yourself, you must understand that if the success or failure of your establishment hinges on a $70 sale it may be time to re-asses more than just your reptile husbandry and sales procedures (especially since this store also sold supplies, mammals, and fish).

Almost assuredly there would have been another animal to fill my king’s vacated slot whether it went home with me, or died a slow painful death in its dirty little cage.

If you had a customer that purchased a dying king from a chain store, then came to you for advice would you call him or her stupid? Certainly, I am not asking you for advice. I am simply curious as to whether your reaction to my post is indicative of how you run your store.

Ultimately, my decision had nothing to do with business. It was nearly purely emotional. I did think briefly about my potential for monetary loss if the snake died, and even more briefly about how my purchase would (as you seem to insinuate) destroy the valid efforts of reputable breeders and sellers everywhere but one more glance at the “skinny kid” with the cool yellow and black zig-zag pattern washed those dirty thoughts from my mind.

Had EVERYTHING to do with business, whether or not you thought about it at the time. You think as a single consumer that your power is insignificant. But you're wrong. Every dollar you spend is a vote, for or against. Your 70 dollars was actually 70 votes-FOR the crummy store that caused that poor king all its suffering, but also AGAINST the very good reptile store you say that you usually patronize. And if your king had died in the store, that would have been a LOSS for the them-making it that much less likely they would choose to carry herps in the future. You turned that loss into a gain. Of course they'll get more kings in, since they obviously are profitable.

Your emotional reaction and empathy do you credit-I'm not arguing againt that. I'm just asking you to extend that empathy to a lot of other mistreated reptiles of the future, that you DON'T personally see. The choices we make now do haver an effect on their fate.

Perhaps even if NOBODY buys a reptile from that store, they might still remain in business. But I will guarantee you one thing-they won't be using their valuable retail space for reptiles! They'll use it for mammals, or fish, or dogfood-anything that actually brings in income for the store. That's the weakness of bad stores-since all they care about is money, if we hit them in the pocketbook they'll soon stop their bad behavior, one way or another.

Don't take my word for it-go ask the owner or manager of that very good reptile store near you. I bet he or she will have a lot to say on this subject!

Best regards,
Brad Chambers

Brad,

Despite the "heat" at times I have enjoyed the debate. I do understand your point, and as I have stated, I did consider the implications of my action.

This store has been in business for over a decade, and has carried reptiles the whole time. My purchase was probably more like 25 votes when you consider all of the costs involved from cricket feeders =( and the wholesale cost of the animal, to commission for the sales lady.

Kudos to you for keeping a healthy store. Always remember why you got into the hobby.

It is a little off of the subject but.....

Chain stores have more buying power than "one off" of small specialty pet stores. They are able to leverage this to broker better deals from wholesalers. Putting a chain store out of business is extrememly difficult, because they are, in effect, using what relates to collective bargaining with their suppliers - thereby reducing overhead and passing these savings (in a much less dramatic way) on to the customer.

If the owners of small specialty shops within a given geographic area could band together and bargain collectively, they would be more competitive in the prices of their offerings. This would give the smaller store a "leg up" on the competition. They would now have a competitive price and a much better product.

Just a thought.

You're right on in that point. In fact there is such an organization of independent retailers-it's called NexPet, and it not only offers the advantages of mass buying power, but also employee education, marketing ideas, and very good care sheets for herps!

I too have enjoyed this debate. And remember, maybe the reason I feel so strongly about the subject MIGHT have something to do with the possibility that I may be guilty of the same thing back when I was starting out ......

And to everyone-please remember that the pet industry is very competetive right now (even quality independents are having a very tough time against the giant chains)-if you have a good reptile store near you, please support it!

Brad Chambers

Brad Chambers

There is a zonata in a pet shop here that sounds much like your Cal-healthwise. Other than being in terrible shape they have him labeled as a Honduran and in with another Honduran (well he WAS a few days ago) and I almost gave in to the "rescue" thing.
If he's there when I return again maybe I'll offer some help and/or a trade --maybe.
Good luck with your snake. Sounds like he's in good hands.
If I didn't think it wasn't supporting the cycle of abuse by giving the shops $$ to buy more animals to neglect, I'd rescue more I bet.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I agree with you. It is a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. If you buy it to rescue it, they will just use the money to replace it with another one. It is also very hard not to rescue these types of animals. I was at Petco awhile back, and they had FL/Brooksi kingsnake labeled as a Cal king, and I tried to tell them, but they didn't care. I wouldn't buy a pet from a place like that anyway. Those are just my thoughts. Derek

...I try to stay out of shops for that and other reasons. I ran low on crickets (for my kingnake lol!) and needed a few in a pinch. Saw the z. and nearly freaked. The possibility of someone dumping a sick snake to the pet shop was one of the reasons I didn't pursue any farther. I mean, a zonata in a crappy pet shop??
All I would ever do is trade something and maybe not a live animal at that.
There's just too many other and cheaper places to do business with.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Oh yes, I have done that probably a dozen or more times. All but a very few recovered nicely. The only tools I really needed to use in all but one case was hydration and nourishment. I've gotten some nice Cal kings, thayeri, Sinaloans and cornsnakes out of it. The cornsnakes always gave me the toughest battle in these cases. The casualties were cornsnakes in my rescues.

Be careful with Rid Worm. I wouldn't use it anymore until you hear from others regarding what it is and if it is safe. I've heard of a few bad results with its use on certain colubrids. I don't know if the people misused the product (overdose). This can be a good question for this or other forums. Better to know more before you use it on baby snakes.

The pet store where I bought my Cal King is relatively new, but my Cal King may be the only snake that's left that shop alive. The people there listen to me and sometimes do as I suggest. They have a new dog groomer who has experience with herps, and he's making some improvements. My Cal King wasn't in bad shape when I got him. He was a little thin (38" long, about 300 grams), but he was still very active and strong. On the other hand, his last shed before I got him wasn't great.

I thought about not dealing with them, but they listened when I made suggestions. Their "body count" so far is a few corn snakes, a couple of ball pythons, and one or two milk snakes. I think the corn snakes and one ball python may have died as a result of getting loose in the shop and getting into the wrong chemical before being recaptured. I suspect that the other ball python and the milk snakes died to bad husbandry. All of the deaths were of hatchlings.

Most of their snakes look pretty good right now. A few weeks ago, I thought that they were about to lose their desert kingsnake. He felt horrible in my hands, and I've been handling him occasionally for about six months. When I was in the shop last, they had given him a mouse that I think was too big for him, but he got it down. Obviously, I didn't mess with him, but he looked better.

I love my California Kingsnake, but I'm probably still partial to my ball python. The ball python is a little better "lap snake." My Cal King would be better if he didn't defecate or urinate at some point during almost every trip outside his cage. On the other hand, he is an interesting animal and very nice. He eats well and has given me perfect sheds since he came into my home. He's also gained weight to the point that he weighed 425 grams last night (at about 43" in length). He's inquisitive in his own way and will sometimes be staring at me when I'm doing other stuff in the room. I don't think people coming into the hobby can go too far wrong with any of the most popular kinds of snakes.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Im am so sick of these stupid pet stores! Over the years Ive had many incounters such as yours. for instance a few months ago I went in to a local pet store and saw a little W. hog, he was so skinny and lifeless I thought he was dead.

I went up to the counter and asked to see him.the guy rolled his eyes, im guessing he didnt want to do his job.I noticed there were crickets and meal worms in the cage. I told him they dont eat crickets or meal worms, he insisted they do and he has one at home that does. I said Ive never heard of that before. basically calling him an idiot in the nicest way possible. then he brought another employee over and he said the same crap.IDIOTS!!!!!!!

get this; i went into a pet shop in jax and saw a snake i was interested in. the guy at the counter was eyeballing a card game on his pc. when i asked to hold the snake he said it was a $2.00 charge to hold if i bought the snake it would be deducted. well i'm not proud of what i said to the guy i called him a few names and said a few things about being lazy and ...
...well not my best day.
i went back by the shop and saw that it was no longer in business. i hope that due lost his shirt on the investment.
kinda funny though-2 dollars to hold. i did see a sign on the door when i left it read: THIS IS NOT A PETTING ZOO.
i would have liked to write on it NOR A PET SHOP.
later jason wilson

That funny. what a Idiot.

Well I think we have all done it at one time or another. I hope all goes well for your new addition. And whats this about California kings being the small fries??? LOL Here is a pic of my male cal king. He is going on 5 years old and he is a whopper!!! Last measurement he was at 56" and still growing!!!
This pic is from last summer, I will have to get some updated pics and post them for you guys!
Brian

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian