Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just got a chance to se the thread this morning. The two little blacktails that Kerby mentioned actually both turned out to be males. I had previously guessed one to be a female just on appearance at birth but probing after witnessing the combat behaviour verified the sexes. This behaviour was observed on the tallest rock in the cage. As soon as I saw them I got two quick pics but they immediately stopped the behaviour and just coiled up next to each other until mamma discovered their escape and chased them back under the hidebox. My wife witnessed the "combat" behaviour several nights later when I wasn't home, again on the tallest rock. Once again upon being discovered they just coiled up together (they are best buddies, just like Frank described with his atrox males) From what I have learned of rattlesnake intelligence I feel pretty confident that this was play, and was truely a game of "king of the hill". Playing in baby animals as we all know is natures way of preparing for the rigors of adulthood. I have learned over the years that I can pretty accurately sex my baby molossus just by their behaviour. My broods are usually pretty evenly split. They are just like elementary school kids. Mom usually coils up just outside the door of the hidebox to block the babies in. She will rest her head on a coil with her nose just inside so she can keep an eye on them. The girls just huddle in a corner and generally never miss-behave. The boys will sneak out as soon as mom falls asleep and go wandering the cage together. As soon as mom wakes up her head jerks around as soon as she realizes they are gone and she does a quick double-check of the box (very comical to watch) She then hunts them down and actually nudges them toward the box. often have to run a block as they try to do and end-around. I never tire of watching rattlesnakes. As FR stated, there can be many reasons for just one behaviour. There are most likely many variations in the behaviour, all with different meaning too subtle for us to read. A buddy of mine had a large male atrox that would assume the extremely elevated "combat" position when he entered the room. If he approached the cage the sanke came to meet him and would follow my friends hand around the glass as he imitated the behaviour with his arm. This behaviour was reserved for the keeper only, never demonstrated towards anybody else. We both felt pretty sure this was actually an affectionate greeting. I would post some pics of the baby combat but I am having computer problems and can't get pics to upload to the gallery (actually this is the only forum I can even post on, with all the others I can only lurk)But heare's a couple atrox that were already up before the probs occured. Keep the interesting threads coming FR!

Rich

It's Chris G. over in Albuquerque.

Very interesting stuff there on the blacktails. Its good to see you posting on the forum. Keep lurking around here and the mexicana forum. Alot of fun stuff here.

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

Hope all is well on your end. Your really producing some killer thayeri these days! I may just have to get back into them when I retire,lol. These days the rattlesnakes keep me busy enough. I think I will actually be able to make the Albuquerque show this October. Work has kept me from the last couple. TIme for a big dose of the Owl's enchiladas con muchas cervezas! Keep in touch!

Rich

Here's a few combat pics I was able to take. Not the best but they weren't exactly posing for me. This occurred on the sidewalk in front of my house just before sundown.
Enjoy !

not something you get to see often let alone on your front sidewalk! Any sightings of them since? I think it would be neat to be able to keep tabs on an urban or semi-urban rattlesnake population. I have some in my immediate neighborhood but I only find occasional individuals, I never seem to be able to locate a den. It would be fun to be able to compare their lifestyles with my densites outside of the city limits.

Those are awesome pics! Very interesting behavior, thanks for the info!
Todd Hughes

Hey Rich,

Great stuff and I am not at all surprised. My willardi and lepidus did (currently not producing any) very similar stuff with their babies. I love that you are openly promoting the idea of babies playing!!!! I am with you. I believe that they are smart, social, quick learners, and react to a wide variety of situations with a wide variety behaviors dependent on individual needs at the time. What any population of snakes do is not simple. FR is, and has been, onto these thoughts too (but with some of my ideas, he looks at me like I cooked my noggin' too many times at work!!). He keeps me honest and somewhat on track.

Have you ever seen your adults teaching their babies anything?????

Cheers, Hugh

Hey Hugh,

How's everything? The one teaching /learning scenario I am sure of with my snakes is about food choices. My molossus broods used to be a BEAR to get feeding. I was aware of parental guarding at teh time and left the babies in with the mom until the first shed, but then I would remove them. She has such a strong feedeng reflex that I would hold off on feeding her until I removed the babies as I feared she might accidentally bite one of them. The babies would refuse even lizards, and just forget about mice. I would hibernate them and in the spring maybe one would take a mouse, another a lizard and the rest would refuse. It took a lot of time and work to get them all feeding on mice. Then I learned that Greene and Hardy were of the conclusion that in their study animals, the babies, although not directly with the mother or father would actually remain in the vicinity of the parents for up to a year, having frequent contact and learning both through example and by picking up scents of what the parent snakes were feeding on. With my next brood of molossus I left the babies in with the mother while I fed her. She was very careful never to strike near the babies and they would appear very attentive and exhibit a lot of tongue flicking when she fed. Every baby accepted mice at their first feeding with no hesitation and every brood has since. I do know they have tendenccy to follow her and get into her patterns, for example coming out of the hide and coiling up in the basking area around 0700 each morn and going back in around 1400. I know when she is in a relaxed coil they are usually in a relaxed coil and when she is in an ambush coil so are they. One year I had a baby with a deformed head. While the mother was very attentive to the normal babies she snubbed the deformed and so did the siblings. The deformed knew it wasn't wanted and while the mom and siblings stayed in the hidebox it always stayed wedged between the glass and the substrate dam at the far end of the cage. Of course this made my wife cry and she nursed him along for almost a year until he died. I often get the feeling at my cerb densites that they babies are are staying near and learning not only from the mother snake but from the group as a whole. I could spend my whole life trying to unravel the mysteries of these guys!

note the little young of the year snake peeking through. The female is his sibling from a couple years previous.

Really very excellent for you to share your observations! That is very fascinating stuff! The only thing I have to offer is a getula found 2 days ago at my Calhoun site therming under a sheet of plywood I laid out. It regurged 4 baby birds and part of a five lined skink. These guys were difficult to find so far south but this is a good sized population. Just across the river the pattern changes dramatically to the more splendida type rather than the holbrooki type.
Todd Hughes

Hey Rich,

great obs. I have very similar with both lepidus and willardi, although with willardi being so semi-fossorial it is hard to see a lot of these behaviors. In captivity I have similar obs with babies learning feeding from parents, and have even reintroduced a separated "problem feeder"* to it's parents, fed the parents while the baby watched, and had it feed without incident after that (this was before I left broods in with parents until it became unmanageable). I also had lepidus sit in basking positions as a group, hunting positions as a group, and have easily predicated feeding success in advance by posture / positioning. I also regularly have males equally involved in attending broods, and with willardi, often more so than the female.

How far does it go???

I have seen parents copulating with all their babies attentively watching at extreme close distance.

Oops... I hit enter too soon!!!!

As for the babies watching the copulations, it could be several things from imprinting scents, observing actions, etc etc, but it is anything but coincidence!!!

the * by problem feeder was to say, in my opinion, a problem feeder is only a problem feeder because WE have not provided (or allowed for) some necessary option for it's individual needs. Options need not be restricted to the various physical characteristics of a cage. In this case, it appears that a social, or at a minimum, an educational component was the missing link.

Later Rich!!! Thanks!!!