Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are the photos of Justin's litter for anyone interested in seeing them. I had resized and posted these previously for Justin on an earlier thread that got deleted so here they are again...

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

In the previous post that was deleted I posted some things and Michael Burton requested that I re-post some of the things that I said. Here is a piece of one of those threads where I was discussing the difference between having the right to name a dead neonate that represents something known and intentional vs. the right to name any strange looking neonate that happens to be dead...

Lets say, for example, that you breed two seemingly NORMAL boas together and have a premature or stillborn litter that yields a few "oddities." You can feel free to draw some theories about what happened with the litter. Maybe the parents were "Hets" (happened with the Scoria Boa) or maybe the odditiy is a spontaneous mutation (happened with the Arabesque). But these are only theories until it is done again, alive or dead. At this point it can't be expected to carry a permanent name because it hasn't been PROVEN. Let's say that you did a second breeding and again, bad luck struck and the litter was born premature or the baby was rolled on and crushed (which happens) can you name the mutation at this point? The animal has been produced on numerous occasions thus proving that it is an inheritable trait. Just because it isn't alive doesn't mean that it never existed.

This has been an interesting and enlightening chain of events. If you have something special dead or alive... CLAIM IT or LOSE IT!

I also gave examples of 2 Ball Python mutations the Pearl (Super Woma) and the Power (Super Spotnose) which both perished after birth for various reasons. I stated that no one would have the right to re-name these mutations if they produced an animal that lived longer.

After weighing the facts, I still agree that Justin has the right to the naming since he did produce the mutation FIRST. It seems that he has tried to contact Mark about the name and chain of events so we will just have to wait and see what is decided. Will they both pick? Will one give the other the right? Time will tell. Ultimately the market place will decide.

I think it is time we cross our arms and wait for a resolution. Celia re-posted the pictures and I re-posted this at someone else's request. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse.

Thank you,
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

I was looking back for those pics for a half an hour, lol. I completely agree with your input on this issue. I hope the two can come to an agreement, and do the right thing. Thanks again.
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I'm just the snake room janitor

If their's no agreement made, they should settle it in a boxing ring. The last one standing gets to name it - haha.

And in this corner -- Justin "The Snowglow" Higgs, and in the other corner Mark "The LocoMoonglow" Miller !! Ding Ding
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I'm just the snake room janitor

np

Ruben Michel

You really cant compare them to this situation. For one Justins was never alive and someone didn't produce a living version of the Pearl or Power ball just days later. If someone did the same thing may have happened. Another point is why did Justin wait so long to speak up about this??? It seems his friends are more upset about it than he is. It obviously wasn't a big deal to him until a select few didn't like the name Mark chose and wanted to rain on Marks parade. The question still remains why all this arguing over a name??? Maybe Justin saw Mark getting all the accolades for being the first to produce this animal and he got a little jealous. Maybe he just feels the name Moonglow is an outrage to the boa community, but somehow I doubt it. We all know there is alot of joy and pain in breeding any kind of animal, and I can surely symphatize with Justins pain of having to see a litter born like that especially with such a unique animal in the mix. I just don't think he is handling the situation the right way. The day Mark posted the first hypo snow born he should have come forward and told us of his accomplishment. We could have congratulated them both and maybe they could have agreed on a name together. To act like this so far after the fact just because you don't like the name seems rather petty and childish. Either way congratulations Justin you should be proud of your accomplishment. Just my .02

It took Justin 33 minutes to post to Mark's thread where we all verified that he (Mark) produced the Hypo Snow by his photographs. Here is a screenshot...

Vincent,

It took you 2 hours and 20 minutes (approximately) to post to that thread with a congrats to Mark. By the time you posted, Justin had already stated that he produced one also and Mark requested photos and Justin said "Will Do!" So it went like this... Mark - Justin - Mark - Justin all before you, Vincent, ever VISITED the thread! I'd say that should fit right into your scenario. Like you said...

I just don't think he is handling the situation the right way. The day Mark posted the first hypo snow born he should have come forward and told us of his accomplishment. We could have congratulated them both and maybe they could have agreed on a name together. To act like this so far after the fact just because you don't like the name seems rather petty and childish.

Vincent... next time please read through all the posts before you make a statement that implies that someone didn't do what they could.

Also... Justin CAME HOME to all of the babies already born. Who are we to say that it wasn't alive at parturition? You say in your post... "For one Justins was never alive" ... if I wanted to be really technical I could say that YES IT WAS! It was alive in the mother! Looking at the color saturation in the skin I would even say that it was alive at parturition because it had nice color which sort of implies that it was a living breathing snake. Stillborns often look dull and the saturation of color is poor. From what I have seen those first breaths change the look of the snake a pretty good bit.

The examples that I provided with the Pearl and Power Balls makes sense. The animal EXISTED! Didn't it? Therefore it was proven and ready for a name.

The problem here is that there is very little respect (if any) being shown towards the first production. There have been statements like "Congrats but Mark named it first!" Personally I find this to be an insult.

My last comment will be about your statement...

" It seems his friends are more upset about it than he is. It obviously wasn't a big deal to him until a select few didn't like the name Mark chose and wanted to rain on Marks parade."

I have spoken to Mark at shows and would consider him a nice guy. We haven't purchased anything from Mark but I'm sure if we wanted something that he had for sale, we wouldn't hesitate (Not that I don't want his stuff, we produce similar animals therefore we don't need anything at the time) We have, however, purchased from Justin but I wouldn't consider us Justin's friend and not Mark's. This is not about favoritism, it's about courtesy! Justin and Mark both started out on the same foot in this, friendly congradulatory remarks from both sides. Then it took the nasty turn. Mine is alive and yours is not... TOUGH LUCK! And statments like "Then MOONGLOW it is!"

I'm just protecting the right of "Ye who produces it first, names it!" I guess this was never written in stone but it has been a constant that I have believed in since 1995 when I bred my first morph (Corn).

I hope that there is a resolution...

Thanks,
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

I did read the whole tread but somehow didn't see where he posted that. It did leave alot of room for interpretation though. He said it was a still born "possible" snoglow and when asked to provide pics he said "will do" but 2 days later still hadn't. Only after the name became Moonglow did it really become an issue. Thats the only thing I don't understand. If you really want to get technical we need to know what day each female ovulated that would really mark the day each life began. I just hope Mark and Justin can work this out in private and both be happy with the end result.

Well we don't know if Justin's was never alive. It could have been alive for hours, and I don't think it matters anyway. You say "It obviously wasn't a big deal to him until a select few didn't like the name Mark chose and wanted to rain on Mark's parade." First, After Mark posted pictures Justin posted that he might have produced the first one. What more could he have done? Just because he wasn't wrting long threads doesn't mean it wasn't a big deal to him. Second, this is not about people who don't like the name Mark chose, it is about giving credit to the correct person. To me, It's really that simple. Third, Noone is trying to rain on Mark's parade. He produced an amazing litter and everyone thinks so. Just look back at the thread where he posted his pics. I read things like "I'm in NO WAY trying to take away from Mark's limelite...but I think Justin Higgs needs a little recognition for his litter," "I'm not attempting to steal any of Mark's thunder." People just want Justin to get credit for producing the first one. Alive or stillborn. Let's not forget that over half of the litter is alive and healthy. I completely disagree with your statement "Maybe Justin saw Mark getting all of the accolades for being the first to produce with animal and he got a little jelious." Frankly, I find this insulting and Justin was the first to produce one. I would think this is why he spoke up, not out of jeliousy. To say that he seems to be acting petty and childish is ridiculous and he did come forward right away. If Mark or anyone produced the first one I would be saying the same things. Mark produced an outstanding litter with a genetic wonder and he should be on cload nine for the rest of the year. But Justin produced the first one and deserves credit.
Michael Burton

No one said Justin doesn't deserve credit for producing it first. I think he deserves all the credit in the world. I just don't think this would have been nearly as much of an issue if Mark chose Snoglow instead of Moonglow for the name. The comments I made in my first post were before I was informed that Justin had posted as soon as he did in regards to his litter. That's why I said "I stand corrected" I suppose you missed that part. Obviously alot of my original statements do not apply with that in mind. Hopefully Mark and Justin come to some sort of agreement soon so they can both be equally recognized for there achievements.

Justin arrives at his shop, finds the dead SnoGlow but he was so distraught that he didn't want to post his miseries to the world?? With the term "SnoGlow" used as commonly as Sunglow is to describe the Hypo Albino, maybe he thought the name was already stuck, he was happy with SnoGlow so why announce it?? Now that Mark drops a post "The first Hypo Snow ever produced" and names it MoonGlow, it throws a sour taste in Justin's mouth, #1 because he produced the first one, dead or alive, #2 the name he "thought" was the accepted term and was happy with was changed by someone who had no right to do so. This is why he's speaking up now, and I don't blame him.. Take care

and now its a tough fix. There are two egos that need to be satisfied. I know if I was or thought I was the first person to produce them I would have been naming them Avalanche boas, and the same problem could have occurred. What is the resolution? I have no idea.

Thank you so much for reposting the pics, for 2 reasons.
First it clearly shows an albino ghost.
Secondly, it reminded me what board I was on. Amongst all the bickering I could have sworn I took a wrong turn and ended up in the ball forum.
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Davey Giltner

I thought it had pretty much been pre determined that it would be called snowglow for quite some time, I know if I buy one in the next couple years, mine will be called a snowglow, lol. I see both parties sides, but has it has already been stated, the market will decide. Remember too there may only be one now, but many people are set up to produce these in the next couple years. What will blizzards be called?? If I produce the first it will be white willy wonderland boa. My point is(Iknow it is hard to follow) the snake is awesome, call it what you want, if people don't like it it will be renamed (pastave comes to mind)

this morph was named long before it was born. It was snowglow, and apparently the type 2 snow will be blizzard. Why change it after it's born?

Just how exactly was this name picked to be IT, before it was born? Who picked it? Why did they have that right?

Caden

From what I understand, all the Type II's poss het Albino that have been produced have been marketed and sold as poss DH Blizzards. The only name that really comes to mind about the Poss DH Blizzards that I know of (dont follow them much) is Jeremy Stone. If I am wrong feel free to correct me but that is my understanding. I too was under the impression that the hypo snows were going to be called Snowglows/Sno Glows, another good name which has recently come up is SnowGhost, I kinda like how that sounds too but I would think Snowglow/Sno Glow would be the more accepted term, either way they are great looking animals.

Are the pics of the hypo snow after freezing? Ifso, why are we not seeing photos of before freezing. I am sure photos muct have been shot before freezing.

Caden