Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey everyone,

I've recently acquired three MHD's that were in need of a new home after being purchased by a rash college student a month ago. I rescue and rehome animals so I took them in. I beleive that one is A.capra and the other two have me stumped....I was told by some that they were crucigera, but I've recentley seen pictures similar to mine on this forum that turn out to be lepidogaster. I am also wondering if my female is gravid? I can feel a lot of lumps in there! I was just wondering if I could get the opinion of some experts?

SUSPECTED GRAVID FEMALE:

SUSPECTED CAPRA:

SUSPECTED MALE CRUCIGERA

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

hey I am receiving lepidogaster tomorow, they cant be mistaken for crucigera as they dont look the same, even brown females can be mistaken, heres a male lepidagaster.

yours all looke like my crucigeras, the only possible mistake is the green male witch cauld be capra? however both mine where id as capras and are in fact crucigeras. it seems to be a common mistake even some academic do.

I love these dragons mine have all nested and alredy gravid again. in fact all my agamids seems to be breeding like flys.

this one is nesting as we speach

rgds

I ´d say the male on your second pic is a crucigera from a "new" location.
A stunning animal.

BTWo you receive so many gravid females, or do you keep your breeders since years?

Ingo lets get this clear once and for all, crucigera X lepidogaster.
Iv seen so many mix match about them its not funny, personally its doesn’t bother me witch species they are, but when I see my old friends R Spracland and others mixing these species on there web site, I feel we have an identity problem. Hec even Manthey mixed them up (other species too) in some of his work.

This animal in my photo was trapped in Laos so is this red lipped male (photo) they are prime example of lepidogaster, pleas show me what you think is a lepidogaster and tell me what’s your reasons to believe they are lepidogaster, you will learn to know me as one individual who just doesn’t settle for pictures in a book regardless of who the authors is.

Its not a matter of who’s right or wrong, its about proper identification of species. This to me is vitally important as I often fund the expedition to capture some of these animals, in doing so I get accurate locality data from very competent trappers, these same individuals must provide there governments with species nomenclature and locality facts.

As for my lizards some I get gravid others I obtain half dead, but most start cycling very fast, my aculeata’s bred in my care, 2 females nested.

As you already know I started my agama collection only few months ago, before that my work and time was given 100% to varanids, these agamas are the first lizards other then varanids iv kept these past 25 years. This is why I have many questions and why I appear enthusiastic, witch I am. But this is work for me not just a hobby.

Incidentally these animals posted by Mcrescue where exported by a friend of mine, they where trapped and exported from Ho Chi Minh Vietnam

Rgds

Mmmmk, So I'm sort of Confused now

So, one person says they're all Crucigera. The other says they're lepidogaster and capra. I saw a post....this one... http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1028433,1028433 ...in which the person thinks they are crucigeras and finds out that they are lepidogaster. The one in the middle has the same designs down the spine that mine do. So isn't it a lepidogaster?

Are their vast colour variations within each species?

These are my first mountain horned dragons I've ever had.

Fallowing the thread you made reference too, I made a few phone calls to indo, the verdict is crucigera. Lepidogaster throughout there range look pretty much the same, even brown females have the same patterning and are easy to identify, crucigera on the other hand are quit polymorphic and have many locality morphs, I am told that even within a clutch, variation can be amazing. This makes them even more interesting for me.

Iv asked other lizard expert about crucigera, some say these are lepidogaster, when ask to show me on what basis they classify one or the other, they vanished in thin air.

You have to understand I don’t go around telling these peoples they are wrong, all I ask is for them to show me, this is legitimate and should be addressed. Until someone helps me understand I have to agree with the most experience person that I know (the trapper)

I have been in this situation with varanids, and believe me many experts are way off when it come to the identification, even more so when dealing with locality morph.

But what’s really annoying and pitiful, is that some of these authorities are old timers that will fight you to death if you dare challenge them, it’s often a matter of decades before simple errors be corrected, and some will stay regardless.

Theirs nothing funny when you talk with an expert that’s in denial, I don’t settle for the it’s this because I say so mentality, show me! Make me understand and see! I have the right to be educated!
I mean are we so dumb that we gobble everything without questioning? Ask Manthey about some mistake in agamid lizards, some are flagrant even for me. Will he say yes it’s a mistake, I didn’t know better then, or will he argue till your blue in the face?

Rgds

Wow, well, it seems that I've come to the right place for information then! I really appreciate you putting in all that effort, to fined out what species my dragons are. Are crucigeras relatively hard to find in Canada? The United States? I'm in Alberta, Canada. I haven't seen them before, I've only seen the A.capras I beleive, and one lepidogaster...which I only think is Lepidogaster because it's owner told me it was.

So, forgive me if I sound like a newb, but I am I guess. I haven't had MHD's before, although I've had a lot of other reptiles and such. These were rescues and I wasn't expecting them. I have all three of them together in a 55 gallon tank....that's all the space I have ATM and they were previously in a 29 gallon, before I acquired them.

They have a repti-rapids waterfall as well as a small pool of water on the opposite end of the tank. The usual temperature of their tank is 75 degrees although I have a small basking bulb in one corner that reaches 90F. The humidity has been 85-91% all day but I am letting it dry out a bit. I went a bit crazy with my new Rubbermaid all Purpose Sprayer, which I swear is the best thing I've ever bought!! (insert ad here)

They didn't eat for a few days and were quite lethargic and stayed in basking area. I force fed them each a cricket and gave them a small dose of liquid calcium. They all soaked in their waterfall for quite some time and they've started eating mealworms and waxworms. I've learned on this forum that they don't like crickets, which I've been offering and wondering why they won't take them. I plan to buy nightcrawlers and earthworms tomorrow at a bait shop.

The gravid female isn't very active but she is alert. She isn't eating. She's very lumpy. Is it normal for them to go off food while very gravid?

Is it alright for them to be together? They don't seem stressed out at the moment....the cage is probably to small, I realize, but how big do you reccomend?

Thanks!

I really don’t know how common they are in Canada, for decades iv pas by all reptiles except monitors without seeing them. I tend to stay focused on my project.

I keep mine in my budget cages (http://www.reptilescanada.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7330 ) in groups of 3 or 4 males and females. Don’t know if this is ok, but will leave it as is until I have reasons to make changes. One thing I can tell you, mine will run after crickets every morning regardless of my presence, in fact I can clean there water without them being disturbed at all. Even very gravid females will jump or run after crickets. I don’t plan on offering them anything other then crickets and worms, don’t see the need.

You seem to be keeping them the same as me, other then mine sleep on suspended branches so that crickets don’t bother them at knight. I use 7w fridge bulb for them, and its seems to work good. I cant offer more as I am still experimenting with my husbandry.

I have talked to several hobbyists in Canada who are finding it hard to find any MHDs in Canada. I also know of a few who have kept a few for some time so perhaps it depends on the area you are in. I don't know since I am in the USA.

I think that given plenty of climbing space you should be OK for the time being with your 55 gal, it is certainly better than the 29! I have 2.2 lepidogaster or crucigera, which ever they turn out to be ; ), in a reptarium that is 4 foot tall and 30 x 30 inch base. They run all over in this using every square inch!

I found that getting mine to eat was tricky at first but once they started they are pigs. This species does like crickets, the capra aren't as fond of them preferring the larger nightcrawlers. Your capra is still small though so should still be interested in crickets. I also feed a lot of roach nymphs.

It is very normal for the gravid female to go off feed. Her abdominal cavity is filled with eggs and not much room is left for food. If she has been fed well before the eggs reached maturity she should have built a fat reserve and will be nourished on that until she lays the eggs. Keep in mind that she will be depleated when she has laid the eggs and will need lots of good food and calcium when she is done.

As long as there is no conflict between the species you should be ok with them sharing a viv for now. I did have one young capra female housed with my leps for a short time but had to remove her because she was attacking the leps. As long as you don't see any aggressive behavior you should be fine.

Do let us know how the female does.

My larger, I think younger, female laid 7 eggs in her clutch.
-----
Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

If you are in doubt, look at the pholidosis and count scales.
These may also be of help:
Chan-ard,T.; Grossmann,W.; Gumprecht,A. & Schulz,K. D. 1999
Amphibians and reptiles of peninsular Malaysia and Thailand - an illustrated checklist [bilingual English and German].
Bushmaster Publications, WŸrselen, Gemany, 240 pp.

I believe in Grossmanns IDs of the lizards depicted there and
the pics to me are pretty indicative.

The same holds true for this one:

Cox, Merel J.; Van Dijk, Peter Paul; Jarujin Nabhitabhata & Thirakhupt,Kumthorn 1998
A Photographic Guide to Snakes and Other Reptiles of Peninsular Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand.
Ralph Curtis Publishing, 144 pp.

and this:

Ziegler, T. 2002
Die Amphibien und Reptilien eines Tieflandfeuchtwald-Schutzgebietes in Vietnam.
Natur und Tier Verlag (MŸnster), 342 pp.

and if you want to count scales, get a copy of this:
Werner,F. 1904
Beschreibung neuer Reptilien aus den Gattungen Acanthosaura, Calotes, Gastropholis und Typhlops.
Zool. Anz. 27: 461-464 (acanthosaura fruhstorferi depicted there is a synonym for A. lepidogaster.

And a medal goes to those who have a name for this one

Ci@o

Ingo

Thanks I will search for this literature. But we both know that if these literatures where in agreement, there would not be any confusion between these species.

That’s one nice lizard
How about.
Acantosaura pseudo hipsylurus

>>Iv asked other lizard expert about crucigera, some say these are lepidogaster, when ask to show me on what basis they classify one or the other, they vanished in thin air.
>>

Jobi,

I do hope you are not referring to me in this statement. I believe that I told you that I am no expert. I only base my opinions on the literature that I can read. I speak only english and most of the literature that I would need to research is written in German. There is a gentleman in Kansas that has offered to do some translation for me if I can find what books I need. Perhaps I should do that!

I am not a resercher or a scientist. I am a hobbyist. I love these animals, I am doing as much as I can to try to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Ingo has been a great help to me in helping me to understand the different species of Acanthosaura. He was also very helpful with some of the husbandry as well in the beginning.

I have stayed away from some of these topics simply because I have had other matters at hand right now. Establishing a group of 3.5 A. armata, trying to get my income tax records together for my business, marrital problems, health issues, working 9 hours a day 6 days a week, remodeling our home, and the list goes on. Today is the first in over a week that I have even checked this board. I feel this was an arrogant comment!

>>You have to understand I don’t go around telling these peoples they are wrong, all I ask is for them to show me, this is legitimate and should be addressed. Until someone helps me understand I have to agree with the most experience person that I know (the trapper)
>>

I also know that I have seen many animals in shops and at importers that are mis-identified. Could it be that some of the trappers don't know what they are trapping? Not to say that the ones you deal with don't know, but do they all know? Do they all care? I have to wonder about that.

I even told you that I was waiting to find out what you could tell me and for you to explain to me why the old information was wrong. I am new at this. I am open minded. But I can't accept that these are crucigera just because the trapper said so any more than you can accept that they are lepidogaster because Manthey said they are. There has to be some defining factor, as Ingo said, a scale count or something that identifies them as such!

Until I have that information, I will not put any other name to them.

And yes, that female is very definitly ripe with eggs. You can see the shapes of them through her sides. I would say she should be laying them soon.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I am sorry FroggieB that you tot I was addressing you, I was actually addressing renown herpetologist, those responsible for this mix-up. They choose to do there thesis in this field but seem to lack our passion and cut corners, the end result is that we can’t follow there route ( doing the same mistake repeatedly and expecting deferent results)

Don’t you ever take any thing I say personal, I admire your love for animals and will not say or do anything to hurt you deliberately.

I am known for a guy that says it like it is, on these forums I address peoples buy there names, however I know the science community and some of them prefer not to be sited, so I respect this, but still speech my mind.

I do understand some of my posts are in disagreements with your experience, this is alright don’t worry about it, I am new to these lizards even more so then you.

Stagnation is herpetocultures enemy, stagnant animals! Stagnant pairs! Stagnant information! Any thing that doesn’t move and allows progress is useless in this hobby.
The point in sharing information, good or bad! Is to get ideas and experience moving. If you don’t try something deferent you become stagnant, if you don’t share or help others share, this is stagnant information. I like to be provocative because I know many experienced keepers simply do not share, some don’t share out of greed, others simply think they have nothing to offer. I know this is not true, we all have something that can benefit others in some way.
I know for a fact that some breeders reading these forums have the knowledge to take your armatas and mass produce them with disconcerting ease, you never see these peoples get involved or sharing there experience. They are the ones I try to provoke, they are the ones I get in trouble with, not the passionate keepers trying to help.

Have a good day
Kind regards

Ps. when I am referring to The trapper, I am referring to a man with extensive reptiles expertise. I know many of the world’s top herpetologist, and they don’t even come close to him. It’s terrible to say this, we should all have access to such knowledge.

I do understand where you are coming from. I have been slammed by some old timers. In fact, on one snake board I was told off because I didn't have to go through the processes they did in learning from the ground up how to care for my animals. All I had to do was pick up a book and read because they had already done the groundwork.

They didn't know how far from the truth that was with Acanthosauras but no matter. Some of the older herpetologists need to get their heads out of the sand (or elsewhere ; ) ) and see that there is still much to learn and that not all of the younger generation are lazy and ignorant!

As for those out there who could take my armatas and mass-produce them with disconcerting ease, I am sure that is true. In fact, when the call went out that there were armata available, I was the first on the list to get my pick, but there were others who showed up asking for them who had been working with them. One had purchased a group of 10 but only 1 had survived. Too bad for him that he didn't talk to me, perhaps I could have helped!

I have been sending out pleas for support for years trying to find others who are working with these animals. My though is that 2 heads, or more, are better than one. Shared information’s can only make for better processes. But nobody has stepped forward. Then from time to time I have someone tell me that they just purchased a captive bred capra from a pet shop and that they know it is cb because they know the breeder and he has been breeding them for years. They never give a name or email or anything, all very secretive. I don't get it!

I figured out how to breed the darn things and when the authority that wrote the breeders column for reptiles magazine said they couldn't be kept alive more than a year let alone bred I wrote an article and shared what I know with the whole world. I don't get the reasoning for so much secrecy.

Since then there is an importer on the East Coast here in USA that imports with some regularity. Now they harvest the capra eggs and sell the hatchlings at 2 months. These hatchlings at that age are a sure kill in the hands of the in-experienced keeper. But then, what 2-month-old reptile isn't! That is greed. Yes, it costs a small fortune in feed to raise babies up to a good age before selling them. You never get it back in the price you have to ask. I do it anyway, but most of my babies do survive and most have gone to enthusiasts who gave up on this species many years before I became interested in them.

So, I guess it is worth a try to attempt to provoke those whom you would like to see get involved, but I don't expect to see them here on this forum.

I do know there are a few who watch and are interested in seeing results, but to get involved? No, they are involved in other things! ; )
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I would like to share with you a few unrelated anecdotes out off 1000s more that iv witnessed thru the years.

First lets take one related to this thread, at least in some way. R G Spracland iv known this man 25 years or more? Cant remember, he is one of the kindest peoples and most devoted that I know, however he is also one who makes numerous identification mistakes, in fact I challenge you to find one of his publishing without them. I have never called or email him to report such mistakes, I simply could not bring myself in doing so.
I know and understand that the science commune write in stone, nothing should ever be wrote in stone as evolution is constant, we cant stop it from progressing, the observations we make today will change no mater what’s written.

Next, I know a few professional breeders, peoples with a far better understanding then most of us combined. One in particular is my best friend, this man hatches 1000s of eggs every year from many species, his collection keeps growing sins his début 30 years ago.
You will never hear about him and he will never come to any forums, why would he ever? These peoples are the reason these forums exist, his advice to me is to keep away from forums, leave the hobbyist alone and focus on your animals he says, peoples don’t care, they will buy reptiles for other reasons then you and me, they will kill them in mass and blame it on the next guy he says, it’s a business where breeders must compete with products companies, if you support the products they support you, if you don’t and like me prefer to help animals, then you are on your own. For them a good customer is a good consumer, buy the products pay the vet bills and buy an other reptile, the sooner the better.

Now the scary part, perhaps this is still out of you comprehension, but eventually you will get there and understand what I am saying here.
Often the most successful breeders are those who says the least, when you visit a site and greeted with words like, we strive in producing the finest … we have the largest blood line in … our goal is to supply you with the best captives in … then your eyes sores from all the photos, but No information! No care cheat! No breeding data! But why? Its clear they have lost of expertise to offer.
The reason is simple, they operate a business and have secrets like all industries, we as animal lovers cant understand.

In closing, lets take your capras sins this you can relate to easy, you see them as a none profitable breeding subject, you have bred them many time and understand the implications and involvements. However in my reality and that of many breeders, things are quit deferent. I give capras as an example but this can apply to many many species regardless of origin or biotope and food preference. When you first started I am sure you tot they would breed once a year, then with experience you realised they can double clutch only 2 months after nesting. Hers where it gets unreal, professional breeders can have them nest anywhere from 8 to 12 clutches a year, furthermore they will perfect incubation and reduce incubation time by half if not more. Yes I know this sounds unbelievable but I assure you its for real, I will prove it to you via private emails.
Its been 43 days sins her first clutch, and she’s a fresh wild collected female, the ugly egg is one I forgot 43 days ago. She nested in the same spot, this is a clear indication that a cycling pattern taking place. I can assure you that this time will shorten and incubation time as well. So when all the husbandry is fine tuned and little problems solved, to a breeder point of view, your capra is an investment capable of producing more then 100 eggs per female a year with little space and power demands. Hum an investment well worth secret protocols.
Rgds

What are you calling that one?

>>Fallowing the thread you made reference too, I made a few phone calls to indo, the verdict is crucigera. Lepidogaster throughout there range look pretty much the same, even brown females have the same patterning and are easy to identify, crucigera on the other hand are quit polymorphic and have many locality morphs, I am told that even within a clutch, variation can be amazing. This makes them even more interesting for me.
>>
>>Iv asked other lizard expert about crucigera, some say these are lepidogaster, when ask to show me on what basis they classify one or the other, they vanished in thin air.
>>
>>You have to understand I don’t go around telling these peoples they are wrong, all I ask is for them to show me, this is legitimate and should be addressed. Until someone helps me understand I have to agree with the most experience person that I know (the trapper)
>>
>>I have been in this situation with varanids, and believe me many experts are way off when it come to the identification, even more so when dealing with locality morph.
>>
>>But what’s really annoying and pitiful, is that some of these authorities are old timers that will fight you to death if you dare challenge them, it’s often a matter of decades before simple errors be corrected, and some will stay regardless.
>>
>>Theirs nothing funny when you talk with an expert that’s in denial, I don’t settle for the it’s this because I say so mentality, show me! Make me understand and see! I have the right to be educated!
>> I mean are we so dumb that we gobble everything without questioning? Ask Manthey about some mistake in agamid lizards, some are flagrant even for me. Will he say yes it’s a mistake, I didn’t know better then, or will he argue till your blue in the face?
>>
>>Rgds
>>
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Justyn Miller
Intense Herpetoculture
www.IntenseHerp.com (Proudly hosted by Fauna Net)

Hi,

sorry for the confusion...you are absolutely right. The back pattern clearly identifies the animal on your pic as lepidogaster. The first pic was somewhat misleading to me. Sorry.
But I stick to my opinion that MCrescues animals are lepidogaster as well.....these animals do look exactly like the typical lepidiogaster I know of and which have been proven to belong to this species by pholidosis parameters.
Here are examples from teh www, whioch depict, what I´d consider to be typical specimens:

A. lepidogaster:

A. crucigera
[img]http://netportal.de/images/content/tiere/nackenstachler/nackenstachler1.jpg[img]

What do you say???

Regards

ngo

Your "crucigera" are lepidogaster, definitely. Crucigera looks very different.
And yes, the female looks gravid and the "capra" looks like a young capra.

Hope that helps

Ingo

By the way group pictured in the thread http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=971664,971664 further down are mine. I candled the eggs the 2 females laid in December last night and saw the babies moving around. What an awsome feeling knowing that they are alive! Two months to go yet as they aren't due to pip until June!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

So is it generally beleived that I have two lepidogasters and a capra, then? I apologize for getting a bit lost! haha.

I got ahold of the guy who had these dragons beforehand. He purchased them from a store that gets their stock from an import/export company in Ontario. I've found their website, and they are claiming to be importing A.Capras and A.Crucigeras. They have four pictures of each species.

Here's their gallery:

http://www.massasaugaimports.com/lizard.html

What do you think?

Any opinions?