Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone in here double-clutch their kingsnakes? I am having trouble identifying when the males and females are ready to go again since none of my females are going into shed after they lay.

Anybody have a routine that they use and will share?

Thanks.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Personally, I don't double clutch anything. It isn't a natural process for most snake species. And those poor girls are being drained to death of their available energy. It takes a lot of energy to produce one clutch every year, much less two.

Matt, please - I hear you but I am trying to solicit responses on how to get the snakes to do it... not responses about how I am going to hurt my snakes.

Thanks!
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

I usually feed the female as soon as possible after she lays and introduce the male shortly after that, sometimes within hours. I have snakes that have double clutched season after season and my female MBK probably would have triple clutched last year, but I was glad she either put all the weight back on or resorbed the ovum. If the female appears exhausted and looks like she is not ready I take the male out immediately. Same goes for if she has her usual strength but resists the male and goes nuts upon introduction. Sometimes a day or two makes a difference and that female will readily accept a male when she is rested. Trial and error....that's all I do. I feed my snakes a lot more than the average keeper, so maybe this is why all mine do not seem to have any ill effects from it? Can't say really, but to date all my females recover fine and look great when coming out of brumation Tom Stevens

Tom,

Thanks.

So, you are saying that you do not wait for the female to shed after laying eggs - you feed her and put her right back in with the male. I appreciate the info.

Some of my Corns and Rats doubled up last year; but none of my Kings. I guess I was waiting to long before re-introducing the snakes.

Thanks!
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

I have had a female cal king double clutch without being re-introduced to the male. All of the eggs were bad though. I don't think double clutching is a huge problem as long as your kings are always fed twice a week and have good fat reserve.

If I am not mistaken in the firts Corn Snake manual Kathy mentions offering a snake a small f/t mouse even before it is finished laying eggs, or immediately after? I also have heard of hognose eating eggs and boas eating young, as if they're starving from the fast before laying or giving birth. I have not had too many snakes in the "trance-like state" I had heard about,....occasionally yes they ignore everything including me removing the eggs, but in many instances they're alert enough to get pissy with me. Like I said, try to get the snake to eat right away, and also experiment with introducing the male. Once in a while my males bred females wehter they want too or not for the first clutch, but I do not let them be too rough for clutch two. If I see that going on I will wait a bit. Another thing worth mentioning is if my snake looks like a deflated tire, I offer maybe 3 mice and then introduce the male. After they breed I offer the female many more mice. Once the bulge in her goes away a little I will put the male back in. I try different time frames for everything but really pay attention to what is happening for clutch two. I realize laying eggs takes a lot out of a snake, but if the snake is healthy I see no problem going for it Tom Stevens

That's fine. I'll just keep my opinion to myself. I didn't expect such a defensive response from you. Words speak volumes my friend.

Matt, I have a question for you, and I'm not trying to be condescending. Have you or anybody else you know of, or anyone in the scientific community, done any research to prove that some species of colubrids do not double or triple clutch in the wild, under ideal conditions?
-Phil

I'm currently in the process of researching this topic as we speak. If I uncover nothing I stand corrected, but my hypothesis is that what I come up with will include that this practice shortens the lifespan on adult females.

Now I will admitt that I firmly believe captive environments offer alternatives that snakes do not genrerally experience in the wild. BUT, just because they can and will breed multiple times in a season doesn't mean it is beneficial to them, now does it? But you guys may not have to worry about it all anyway. Sometimes I feel as if this is a very closed forum, and quite frankly I don't really feel like I belong here anyway. I have better things to do with my time. If I find anything I might post it later, or you can just dig it up and find out for yourself.

...they are able to recruit and produce more offspring. Frankly, I think we are anthropomorphizing (sp?) the issue by arguing that multiclutching is detrimental to an individual because shortens life span. I personally don't think these critters are interested in collecting their entire 401K. I think they are interested in making as many babies as possible while they are on this rock, for the purpose of continuing the species....period.

As I'm sure you know, most wild individuals never have the opportunity to reproduce. So, it seems that the ones that are afforded this opportunity will take full advantage and make as many babies as they can, in the short time that they are able. As I stated earlier in this thread, I have witnessed wild N. red-bellied snakes gravid twice in one season, on a few occasions. That is what I call success. Just my opinion though.

Will

Look, I was asking for help on how to do something. The 1st response on the forum was from you - and you basically listed a bunch of reasons that made it sound like breeders that try to induce a second clutch are irresponsible. Take a step back and look at it from my angle

Matt - no need to get defensive or talk about "words speaking volumes". I just wanted some help (like the posts that FR and Jason wrote).

I appreciate your answer, just not as a response to this specific question.

No hard feelings.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

...not that this has to do with the question at hand... But I'm pretty sure that wild colubrids can and occasionally do lay more then one clutch in a season. I will be trying it for the first time with my female kings this year. So I would love some more information on methods as well. They are laying their first clutches now and are all looking great!

First there is a basic understanding of husbandry. If you meet their requirements, they automatically multiclutch. You do not do anything. Its nothing you do, other then provide support. Its what they do or better yet, what they are allowed to do.

Also, If allowed the right choices, you can hardly tell a female laid eggs, immediately after she laid, and within two days you really cannot tell. This is in captivity and nature.

If a female looks beat after laying, its a sign that husbandry is not up to par. Its not a sign of what she can or cannot do. Its only what she can or cannot do under your support.

About not multiclutching in nature, thats a bunch of huey. How do you know? Better yet, how does science know or not know? I think its about method of study. I ask this. Why not put radios in someones captive snakes and see if they single clutch, and then see if they multiclutch. You know, in the females of someone who commonly has their snakes multiclutch. To me, that would be interesting. But to science that would be horrible. It may just show there is something wrong with that method of study.

The point is, you do not single clutch or double clutch a snake. You support your snake to single or double clutch. If you keep the sexes seperate, then you are actively controlling the situation. You are stopping them, not supporting them. With that in mind, I fail to understand why you think what you do. Cheers

FR, every once in a while I have "personal issues" whith the way you address questions and situations on this forum. Then there's times like this post, where I admire your strait to the point and matter of fact handling of the issue at hand. I agree 100% with what you just said! Who the H#ll knows how many clutches a healthy king would have in the "wild" as opposed to captivity? I love this forum! We can all state our opinions, and be shot down, just like the real world!(LOL)
-Phil

I don't like the way I post either, but darn, its the way I post. Whats a boy to do, hahahahahahahaha.

The thing is, my post are non personal. As I do not know the person posting. The reality is, it makes no difference who is posting. As my responce is off only the information posted. As that is all I have to work with.

To "work" with animals is to analize behavior. The funny thing is, I "work" with animals. I base methods on the results of behavior. Most here do not "work" with animals, they make the animals follow a regime(caresheet husbandry). That sir is the punchline. Many get mad at me because I do not work with their behavior. Better yet, I do not message their behavior. I treat them in a non personal way. Kinda like they treat their animals. They get mad at me for treating them like THEY treat their animals. How funny is that? Cheers

Hey Matt
Don't take responses too hard. Its learning.

More info:
When I started breeding Cal kings, the females would look very thin after laying, and it would take a few weeks to make them look back to normal for my captives.

Before I stopped breeding them, I had 2 females that would look great after laying a 1st clutch, and within a week were super robust such that they laid a 2nd clutch later on whether I bred them or not. The secret for my setup was a larger cage, a larger temp range and lots and lots and lots of food. That was it as far as I could tell. Those were my changes from my original setups.

I would bet that in nature, if the conditions allow a female to multiclutch (food availability, temps, etc) and she is capable of it, she absolutely will.

...but I totally disagree. Who are you to say that snakes don't normally do this. I know of many wild, live bearing snakes that have produced two clutches of babies in a season (N. red bellies). Most of my easterns produce two clutches each season whether I want them two or not. As Frank has stated, it is all about support. If you give them what they need, they will do it. It is well within their abilities to safely double or triple clutch. Support them with food and temp. choices and you will see the girls getting full with follicles again within two weeks of laying. Add the male as needed. Good luck Pete.

Will

There is no secret. It is simply a response to food being offered. If there is enough food for the female to do it she will. The male may or may not be important depending on the first breeding and how viable the sperm was. In short if you feed right after they lay and feed multiple small meals a few days apart you will get a second clutch. I got to go but if you have more questions I can get to it tonight. I got to go work(:

Later Jason

To fill in the gaps of what I said. In nature a snake will not multi clutch unless it has enough food. Pretty simple if you think about it. To make the eggs it takes energy which is food. If there is enough food it will do it a second time. The problem is keeping the snakes in good health the rest of the year by not overfeeding them.

This is where a lot of keepers get lost. They get fat snakes that will not double or even single clutch sometimes. This tends to come from too small a cage in my opinion. I am also against the whole under tank heater thing but I am heading that way my self it seems. I think the UTH does not offer a high enough temp range but I see how you don't have much of a choice with a bunch (50 ) of adults.

Back to double clutching. As far as the males are concerned Tom is right on with going case by case. All snakes are individuals and your way of keeping them is going to affect what they do and when, so there is no answer that is 100%.

Later Jason

Thanks for your responses.

Will one of you email me your phone number? I would like to talk about this further on the phone. Last year was the 1st time I ever put snakes together for a second clutch and it was a total failure - mainly because I waited until the female Kings had undergone an after-lay shed (postpartum???).

I can't be too hard on myself because it is not like you can google the topic of double-clutching King snakes!

I have some more questions and would like to talk to either (or both of you). You two were very helpful to me on this.

Thanks.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

In your post you made it sound like you don't reintroduce the male and you get a second clutch just by offering the female good supportive care. Is this true or did I misunderstand?

Hi Zach,

In answer to your question, sometimes, yeah, you don't even need to introduce a male, but fertility will obviously be compromised.

I don't ever go by the female's shed cycle. After she lays, I feed her as much as she will eat. After a week or two I will throw the male back in if I want another clutch (If I don't, she may drop one anyway) I then observe, and if she tries to get away, I take the male out for a couple of days and try again. Within a couple of weeks, the females are usually ready (eager) to go. Remember though, the eggs come quicker the second time around.

Will

Do you think the eggs come quicker? Or is it that the start date is more accurate than in the first clutch. In other words do you think the females tend to be breed before they ovulate the first time around and end up storing sperm for a short time?? If you were to only breed once and take the first breeding as the right one then you should be fine. Unless that is the first breeding is too soon and the female is not ready yet. In that case some sperm may die before she ovulates and you will get lower fertility. Most of us allow multiple breedings for the first clutch, in my keeping far more, than for the second clutch. I am just wondering if we may be able to fine tune the breeding thing a little more. But as Keith said last year, why change it if it works??

So for now I am just asking

Later Jason