Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I got to read your post on GA laws before the post was deleted. If it is not too much trouble could you please repost some of the info you shared, or maybe at least give the info where people can look into it for themselves? It is a shame when people have to worry about their hobby and business being ruined by strict laws concerning reptiles, especially since so many play by the rules and are all for conservation. Tom Stevens

Yep Buzztail....ie..Karl Betz
Karl I was meaning to reply to the info you had given but was in a hurry and when I returned it was gone.
As a Georgia boy the info you gave was great and really helped. Several things you had mentioned in the post I did NOT know and was glad to have heard about it. I back into reptiles as a hobby....I love the animals. Theres no better feeling than to see one of your animals laying eggs, The first ones when they pip the egg, the little guys when they take their first food item. I do it because I love everything about them.
I dont do it for the money, like my carvings, I do it for the love of it. I have always known that I could not keep easterns and dont, But I like William did not know about the floridas. I had been looking forward this year to buying some of the floridas (Brooksi) But will not now just to stay legal.
It is still my thoughts that the state is backwards in thier laws. I will go by the laws regardless.

Now again thank you Karl for the info, I REALLy learned some things from your info!!
Toby
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

I will try to remember most of what I posted.
Georgia law prohibits the keeping of indigenous nonvenomous snakes without an education permit which is very reasonably priced and carries the caveat that the permitee conduct a certain amount (can't remember how many) of documented public education hours using the snakes for which they are permitted.
The Lampropeltis which are indigenous to Georgia are available in a list from GA DNR. It coincides exactly with the range maps from the Peterson Field Guide by Conant and Collins.
They are:
Eastern kingsnake (L. getula getula)
Florida Kingsnake (L. g. floridana)
Black Kingsnake (L. g. nigra)
Mole Kingsnake (L. calligaster rhombomaculata)
Eastern Milksnake (L. triangulum triangulum)
Scarlet Kingsnake (L. t. elapsoides)
I know that recently we had the big discussion about the differences between kings and milks but in my experience we (kingsnake keepers) tend to branch out to milks and ratsnakes.
To that end, the ratsnakes that are indigenous to GA are:
Black Ratsnakes (Pantherophis obsoleta)
Yellow Ratsnakes (P. obsoleta)
Grey Ratsnakes (P. obsoleta)
Red Ratsnakes - Corn Snakes (P. guttata)
One important thing to note:
GA does not recognize albinos (or any other morph) as being anything other than the species listed.
Therefore albino Corn Snakes are still not allowed.
Hope this helps,
Karl H. Betz
Buzztail1@hotmail.com

It's my understanding that those are the species that they choose to enforce the law upon. As the laws are written they are only to species level. So they could in fact stop you from keeping any subspecies of L. getula, and be well within the law as it is written. Same goes for triangulum etc. There has been an "understanding" in the past that the types you mentioned were the ones they did not want you to keep.....

There has always been a great deal of confusion as to what you can and can't have in this state, oftentimes it had to do with who you knew, where in the state you are located, and other factors. I personally know of people who keep native non venomous and exotic venomous without the proper permits and the local DNR people know it. Most DNR officers are great people, they will treat you with respect, most realize the laws are not necessary for the protection of the state's common species. Most can't tell the difference between a Scarlet Kingsnake and a Honduran Milksnake and don't want to. They are underfunded, understaffed, and have large regions to cover by themselves.

There is no reason a permit system cannot be put into effect similar to so many other states, this would provide (through the funds received for permits etc) for extra personel to police the permitholders. But that would require a solid base of people to work with DNR and legistlators to change the laws and make things as easy as possible for all parties involved...unfortunantly most herpers (and I do count myself) are too lazy, busy, or individualistic to join together to provide the united front required to get things done....This has always made us easy targets for overzealous agencies or officers with an agenda.

Horridus@aol.com

Very well spoken !!!
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Why would you support paying a tax just to ostensibly give the government permission to invade your privacy? The real problem is existing regulations that already infringe on your liberties. Advocating a further level of beauracracy will not help, it will only exascerbate the problem.

It is foolish to believe that government will cede any control/power for more than a momentary slight of hand conducted while grabbing power in another area (entering your property without cause at any time).

Be careful the deal you sign with the devil.

Caveat emptor.
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Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.4 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana super peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic

VERY GOOD POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(For those that thought the Government is an Angel with a halo!)
Of course there were other good points said last night in reference to OUR national parks & wildlife areas!!!

Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Well, I may be busy and a bit lazy, but joining a herp club in your area is one of the only ways I know of to get some publicity about the herps out to John Q. Public. When the t.v. crew came over to do the story, it was great but the editors put a rattlesnake as the background and the anchor gave the old well I'm glad it was your story and not mine. I would ask for a reporter that would be interested and compassionate to your cause and choose your own backdrop! Other than that it went quite well, as they came when we had a sea turtle expert and they got awesome information on a subject that the general public was passionate about. But yeah, I couldn't live in Georgia or Florida, 'cause I'm getting both easterns. kings and indigos dammit! But no Texas indigos (we have stupid rules here too, lol!
Todd Hughes

Bob and Rainer,

I don't know if you realize it or not but we DO NOT have any rights here as it is. My thoughts of government invasion into our lives are parallel with yours but your thought process will get us NOWHERE here in this state. We already CAN'T have any native non-venomous. A permit system would be a nice change compared to the blanket prohibition we have now....so what would you suggest....civil disobedience? I can't afford it! It's easy to sit from afar and tell others what you think is best, but if it were YOUR kingsnakes they were going to come in and confiscate you might sing a different tune. Do you honestly think that the law could be taken off the books completely and we would just be able to keep what we want? Get real....I am a libertarian, but I am also a REALIST. The fact is as it stands now a permit system is the BEST we could hope for. What you don't seem to get is....we have already lost our rights to keep these animals back in '77 (i think)....both of you made statements to the effect that government doesn't de-regulate....and you're right.

So here are the scenarios:

Keep your getula now.....post a pic, tell someone you have it, have a neighbor see you bringing in mice...they come to your door, you go to court lose your animals, pay a fine. Deal with the psychological effects of your house and privacy being invaded.
-OR-
Work toward a permit system.....If you CHOOSE to keep a getula, you can take the proper steps (within reason, the steps as they are now are NOT within reason) pay your money for your permit just as you would with a hunting license. And keep the animal legally....did you give up anything???

You can't lose what you don't have

If it were up to me (God forbid) it would be government's job to deliver the mail, defend the shores, and Keep the roads passable. But this just isn't reality, and neither is believing that you will get to keep getula legally in GA without a permit system....

Bart Borchert
Horridus@aol.com

Horridus, I am in a lousy mood as I finish my taxes.

The way to resolve this is not through open or covert defiance, but through politics. Here is the secret 3 step formula:

1. Organize your group, herp society, whatever.

2. Raise funds, gobs of $$$cash$$$.

3. Contribute enough campaign $$$cash$$$ to a couple of State Reps and they'll introduce legislation for you.

It is not easy, nor is it fast, but it is the only realistic way around the regulators.

Of course you'll have to schmooze upto some nasty pit-vipers (as opposed to the really cool pit-vipers) in the process.
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Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.4 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana super peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic

Bob,

After I re-read my message I realized I sounded somewhat more "venomous" than I had intended, I guess that it's a sore subject for me since I have had personal experince with the DNR here and my general dislike for government and all related agencies. Once very ten years or so the local herp society "gets it's act together" so to speak and moves are made to enact changes....but seemingly when resistance is met efforts falter and things remain status quo. All of us (us meaning past and present members of the Georgia Hep Society) are at fault for our situation....I am deeply envious of societies that have a large membership and a great deal of "pull" with thier state agencies...of course this could be us...all it would take would be some good old fasioned work. Starting with, but not limited to the suggestions you mentioned....but it seems that for whatever reason GA herpers would rather stay under the radar and do our own thing, maybe this can change, since I have some years on me now since the last time I paid dues I guess I could do as much as anyone. But as it stands I will probably just go back to keeping all native venomous since they are my first and foremost interest. I can remember being 15 and since I happened to be most interested in keeping southeastern crotalids I didn't mind the laws as "my" animals were not prohibited, but it seems a cyring shame that a young kid can't go out and catch an example of a common non-venomous species...Like an Eastern King for example and expand ones interests in herps and the natural world as a whole without being in violation of the law....Isn't that how most of us got started in this?

Bart Borchert
Horridus@aol.com

Hey Bart,
We are all feeling the sting of the encroaching regulators. Here in PA they almost did the same thing (proposed to add all sub-species of a native species to the proscribed listmeaning no kings, no hondurans,...)but a very dedicated group of breeders/businessmen (not hobbiests, they get overlooked as a group) sat down with our fish comission (Yeah snakes are fish in PA, who knew?) and the comission pulled back their proposals and ultimately delisted the eastern kingsnake as occuring in the state which means that it is no longer illegal to breed and sell.
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Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.4 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana super peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic

Va. also has some crappy laws.You cannot legally breed an eastern hognose but,if you are an idiot you can kill them all day long and call them "moccasins". jeff

respond to this because I wanted to but know you can but it better than I could. Your thoughts are inline with mine,you cant lose what you dont have to begin with.
The permit system would work out same as it does for hunting and fishing. And yes my taxes my go to pay for things and maybe I shouldnt have to pay for a permit BUT just like in hunting if the money would go toward the conservation and education of the hobby it would only help. People said the same kinda things when they first started letting us deer hunt in this state but that system seems to be working pretty good.
I hope I got things to come out right, Ive never been very good at expressing myself in type.
Just my penny and a half
Toby
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Bart,

Thanks for this post and the clarification of your position. I agree with your position given the reality of your situation. In Louisiana, I still have hopes that we can win our fight and not need a permit system at all. If we're stuck with a permit system, I'm hoping that it will be as non-invasive as possible. A $10 fishing license allows me to collect all of the snakes that I want. I don't really want to take any snakes out of the wild, but I buy the license anyway in case I see something, pick it up, and am questioned by fish and game people. I think I'm supposed to buy the license every year if I keep a native species. I don't really have a problem with that much regulation on native species. There are too many other issues in the world that need attention.

If the current law ends up in my having to buy a permit that's equivalent to a fishing license, I'll be thankful to have escaped with that little damage. I'll still be angry at the increase in regulation in our society, but I'd consider that minimum regulation to be a better bargain than others that could be made.

In any case, I wish you well in finding a workable solution that would allow you to keep the kingsnakes that you want. It's sad that we're having to have this discussion at all.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Great post and with well spoken points. I have to agree with you. I am going to send you a email as well.

Later Jason

Offer them less instead and nothing will ever get done. Offer them more (your idea) and something will get done. Sounds like they hold all the chips and we are going to lose no matter what. We should at the very least hold onto the few rights we have left rather than giving away more.

Sorry Horridus but I am going to have to totally disagree with you on this one. Bob is right.

Gov't as it exists today is all about regulation and never about deregulation. They may very well take such an offer. Matter of fact I can hear them licking their chops at such an offer as I write.

Posted by: BobBull at Mon Apr 10 18:36:44 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Caveat emptor.