Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Part 1 of 2

If IMG* were proven to be genetic and you crossed it into an albino project would the double morph offspring:

1. Appear as normal albinos and then get whiter?
2. Appear as normal albinos and then get black spots or blacken?
3. It would have no affect?
4. Other ...

*IMG meaning they start out normal looking and darken - no hypermelanistic animals apply to this hypothetical situation.

Part 2 of 2

Which morph would you blend with IMG? And why? (if proven genetic)
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

If it is a true IMG(Increasing Melanin Gene)and an albino at the same time, then this is what most likely will happen. Firstly, normal albino = amelanistic(lacking black). Now if you have both traits expressed in one animal, I would expect that you would end up with adult albinos with tons of yellow/orange blushing and here is why.

Firstly, the albino trait would pretty much negate the IMG for the most part, but in my opinion an IMG isn't just black pigment, but also an increase in the brown pigment. Black washed out by the albino, will leave only the orange(think brown in a normal animal).

This is just what I believe, not proven or anything, but I think that whoever it was that posted the blushing albinos has a line that has IMG's being expressed as well.

-Dan

Since IMG requires an increase in melanin and albinos by definition lack the ability to produce melanin, you could not have a IMG albino. If there is some other trait that these hypothetical IMGs had, that might be noticed...
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

Well.........first things first........the term IMG has been used by just about everyone to describe what they think is an IMG ( increasing melanin gene ). The snakes that we have been seeing a lot of lately...you know.....the ones that start out normal...then shed and WHAM........are axanthic as the definition in the book.....those are not genetic and are probably some sort of nutritional deficiency......the real IMG's (still unproven as of yet?.?.?.?.) are born/hatch as VISUAL morphs.....i.e. they come out of the egg as IMG. There are very few of these in captive collections......most of whihc came from the same breeder....I personally have recieved a few produced by someone local over the course of 3 years...so there is a genetic link in this line........My animals are now in the collection of VPI and I am eagerly awating Tracy's production of some cool new combos..........gotta love double recessives!!!

Here are a couple pics of some of the IMG's that I feel are the genetic line....

These were owned by Ben Seigel about 5 or so years ago.......different from my animals....from the same person I believe....

Here are a copuple pics of one of the color chaging balls that I feel is not genetic....

now to answer your question:

If IMG* were proven to be genetic and you crossed it into an albino project would the double morph offspring:

1. Appear as normal albinos and then get whiter?
2. Appear as normal albinos and then get black spots or blacken?
3. It would have no affect?
4. Other ...

I feel that the answer to this is......they would be born/hatch as very white animals with brilliant yellow highlights......as they aged they would get whiter with more cream coloration to them......

I personally would mix the hypo gene into it.........should make a nice combo...the T- albino will be................blah............as would most other crosses.........the Caramel or lav albinos would be HOTTTTTTT as they would have some weird colors happening....

Jared Horenstein

I am not sure what sort of nutritional deficiency could occur.
Is someone out there feeding their BP's fish and pasta ????????? Do not most people feed rodentia of some form?????? I really doubt it is nutritional. I can tell you that I have one from a gravid WC with the dirty look. All the babies where normal looking. This female turned like the mother. If that is not genetic I am not sure what is. It may have a genetic path more like the paradox trait. Here is the pic of my little girl.

Chris

Jared, I have an animal that I would like your opinion on if you would. I recieved an animal from a pet store a few years back, It was only a yearling but was very bizzar looking. It looked like an axanthic except for the bright yellow spots down its back, It actually looked like one of the one's you have posted in your responce. After a few years have past It continued to get darker to almost a black apperence now, You can still see the shadows of the spots that were on its back. What is your opinion on this animal? And do you have one as dark as this? Thanks Erick
Exotic Designs

Nice snake....it could be....breed it out to see for sure!!!

Jared

because I'm not sure how IMG acts. I can see from the pictures that the snakes seem "dirtier" than normals. But is this effect from more melanin or less xanthin (yellow pigment)? Hanged if I know.

Seems to me that if IMG increases melanin, than an IMG albino would look like an ordinary albino. And if it causes a reduction in xanthin, then an IMG albino would look somewhere between an albino and a snow. Or there might be some other effect. I'd certainly like to see what happens, though.

Paul Hollander

As you may remember I have an dirty looking girl - I've never considered her an IMG because 1. I never saw her change and 2. when I got her at 250 grams she was already "dirty" and from what I gathered IMGs didn't really change until much later.

Anyway ...

My son had her out yesterday and asked what would happen if we bred her into our albino project. My first thought was that we'd have something similar to the Blushing Albinos that we have been seeing - I think I even commented on the first Blushing Albino thread that it looked like the albino version of an IMG.

But then my son started me a thinkin' - if the IMG increases the amount of melanin produced, why could it not make an animal that did not produce melanin - start producing melanin? Or maybe because of the albino gene instead of producing more black melanin - it would end up producing more white scales and white out the snake.

Which then brought about my second question - what (if any) other morph could this morph be paired with - and I came up short - it just didn't seem like there was a morph this could really enhance.

So then I posed the question to those of you that have far great knowledge in these matters than I.

I certainly appreciate everyones theories - thanks for sharing!!!

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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

From what I know, albinos wouldn't produce the melamine at all, as the genetic mutation blocks or prevents the productions of black pigment. An animal that naturally produces more melamin as it grows older would be producing 'blanks'. Whether the animal will start turning whiter, I don't think this would happen. I don't think the yellow that is overwriten by the malenin is actually removed from the pigment in the snake's skin/scales, but just overpowered by increased amounts of black, giving the snake that dirty look. So if the malenin is no longer being produced (due to the albino/amelanism mutation) that yellow pigment would still be there, giving the animal a more typical albino look.

In summary, I don't think IMG albinos would look any different than the current available albino ball pythons.

Then again I am a complete and utter amateur when it comes to genetics, LOL.

If the IMG trait is genetic, and a duo-recessive ballpython with amelanism and IMG can be produced, it may look interesting.....but logic would seem to indicate two mutations that affects the amount of melamin produced cannot both be expressed at the same time. ( a minus and a plus cancel eachother out)
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PHLdyPayne

A minus and a puls cancel eachother out, and thats exactly why the black WOULD show up, on an IMG albino, as white. Like Jared said, they would be born with more white, and would get whiter and creamier as they got older.
Will Wohlers

Unfortunately, genetics doesn't work like that. An albino lacks tyrosinase activity. That is an irreplacable step in the biosynthesis of melanin. Most likely, IMG snakes come from a bad signalling pathway in the production of melanin (such that production doesn't know when to stop and start, so it is just on all the time, building more and more melanin as the snake gets older). However, since the melanin production pathway would be blocked in albinos at a critical step, it doesn't matter how fast or how long the rest of the pathway is going, no melanin is going to be produced, there is not going to be a change in the snakes appearance.

Think of it like an assembly line for a car. Albinos can be likened to cars without frames, because the frame welding technicians are on strike. IMG can be likened to management pushing the auto workers to make as many car as fast as possible, reguardless of the demand for the cars. If you mix the frame welding technician's strike with the crazy managment, you are only going to get a whole crap load of random car parts and no frame to put them on. In terms of melanin, that means no pigment production and thus a normal looking albino that may or may not have serious health issues from the buildup of the other compounds (car parts).

This only holds true if IMGs are really the result of increasing melanin, if "IMG" means something else to you, then the results might be different.
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

okay, not quite age old, but:
is IMG increased or increasing, I have seen it both ways

INCREASED:
the snake is born "dirty"
stays "dirty"

INCREASING:
the amount of melanin being produced increases as time goes on, thus giving us the normal to dirty change that we can account for.

Is there a difference in the two? Maybe there are two subsets of IMG's? This might give us a key to determining the difference between a genetic trait, and something that just happens like "cute" spot here or the letter W in the pattern. Or, maybe, its 3:22 am, and I should not be up this late...

Thank you, Good night

~Johnny