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I have a question for all you cal breeders. At what point are the females breedable? I have never bred a female under three feet, but a friend swears he has bred them as small as two feet. To me, this seems a bit small, but maybe I just feel more secure with older and larger females? So what's the consensus on it? Is it size or age? I never breed females under three to four years and 3 feet. Am I just going slow, or is my friend full of it and going early? I'd really like to hear some opinions, especially from the well-experienced. Thanks
BDR

Three feet or longer is your best bet in the long run. Yes, they'll breed at smaller lengths than that, but in my experience breeding early stunts their growth (I suppose the energy used to produce eggs cannot be utilized for growth). As with most snakes, age is less important than size when it comes to breeding.

Tim

Third Eye

I breed mine really small. I have two 2" footers right now that are gravid.

I think FR has answered this question before. Maybe he will chime in and refresh everyones memories...

Kingsnake growth and age/size at sexual maturity are highly variable depending on many environmental conditions. Obviously as your friend can attest, kingsnakes can breed as soon as they start to ovulate, which can be as small as 2 feet. The questions are:

Is it healthy for the individual snake to breed at a small size?
How long should it take to get the snake to that size?
What are your breeding goals? (maximizing profit? having fun?)

Your question brings up a slew of others involving the effects of power feeding, the morality of breeding snakes for profit, and others.

I will throw this out there. All of my largest cal kings (and the ones who produce the largest clutches) were kept as pets for many years before I started breeding. I still dont power feed my snakes and usually wait until females are at least 30 months before breeding them, but I have noticed a decrease in size from females that didnt breed until 5 or six years of age. Now is it worth it in terms of overall fecundity? I don't know. My larger females produce slightly more offspring per clutch but the smaller females had a 2 or three year head start on total offspring produced.

I guess the point is to do what you like. Your kings can breed either way and there are many breeders with healthy snakes who do it differently. If you are not in a hurry breeding cutting edge morphs, personally I would take it slow like you have been.

Hi Zach. Thanks for all the info. I did have a question. In your post you wrote;

"but I have noticed a decrease in size from females that didnt breed until 5 or six years of age."

Could you elaborate on this? What decreasees in size? The female or the offspring? Do you mean size of clutch or size of neonates? Thanks for the clarification and all the great info you posted.
BDR

What I meant was that my adult females that didn't breed till they were older, are larger then the females that I bred when they were three. I like to try to think about what would be going on in nature. There is probobly a lot of variation, but I sincerely doubt that there are too many 18 month old kings that have found enough food to be sexually mature. (then again it most likely doesnt take 6 years eaither)

Another interesting note...

The body proportions change depending on growth patterns. Snakes that are power fed tend to be short, chubby, and have a relatively smaller head. Snakes in the wild are leaner, longer (at least proportionally) and have larger heads. Again personal preference keeps me somewhere in the middle. I have not disected enough snakes, or had enough die of old age to have personal experience with the longterm effects of all this. Maybe someone else will chime in.

Hi Zach. Thanks for explaining.I get it now and re-read your original post and it fit right in. Thanks. Sorry, I was having a dense moment, lol.
This makes perfect sense. I would also add that I find your assessment of captive, powerfed snakes as opposed to wild snakes interesting and true. I actually like something in between too. I like snakes that are muscular looking, rather than slug looking, lol. I also like the bigger heads. They just look more robust. My oldest snake ever was a black kingsnake(L. G niger) which was wc when very small, probably about 18". She died last year, having been in captivity for 19 years, and must have been at least a year or two when caught. She laid her last clutch of eggs (7, all fertile) the year before she died. It was her 13th clutch. I had her for 5 years before I bred her. I dont think, though, that this is actually exceptional. I think many snakes could do this if they are given the chance. I have certainly heard of snakes living much longer. I dont know anything about reproduction later in life than this, though I'm sure it is possible. I never fed this animal heavily, never double clutched her or tried. For me, I am convinced that slow growing (after the first year, which is crucial)is better for long range health, but I am not asking anyoe else to believe it, just my opinion. I dont have enough empirical data to make a definitive statement on the subject. It's just my gut feeling and it's always worked out well for me, but then again, I dont sell, so it doesnt matter if I produce in huge numbers or not. I will note though, that there have been some animals that I have fed heavier if I needed to get a breeding or a test mating off. I did that with a BEB male, because he was the only one I had. He is still fine. I have now slowed his feeding down some, since I have gotten breedings from him and now dontr have to worry about loosing the line and buying more (touch expensive, for me, but I'm cheap, lol). The females I bred him to were older individuals. However, the f1 from him and those females I did feed heavy and bred from them when the females were about 30" and the males a little less. I didnt like doing it and felt like I was potentially hurting them, but I wanted those homozygote BEB. I got them and now I am not powerfeeding them at all. Since I have enough animals, I can take my time on them.I will be interested to see how those heavier fed f1 and the originalmale do over time as compared to the slower grown animals. I'll get back to everyone in a couple of decades on that, lol.
BDR

Those are some mighty fine insights. Since the breeding of snakes by hobbyists on a relatively large scale has been going on for less than 20 years, I don't think we can accurately assess if power feeding or breeding at a small size affects the long term health of reptiles.

In addition, I think it would be a safe bet to say most people don't keep accurate, long term records of their snake's sizes, ages, clutch sizes, weights, etc.

We can make educated guesses, but that's about it. I think most breeders would agree that breeding and egglaying puts a significant amount of stress on a female snake. I think they'd also agree that a larger female is better able to handle this stress than a smaller one (assuming they are both equally healthy).

Tim

PS: Here's a little guy I found while road hunting near Las Vegas last summer.

Third Eye

I think that there is only one regular on this forum who has been doing this long enough to maybe help us out with this thread.

Frank, what are your thoughts on captive snakes metabolism and growth patterns vs snakes in the wild and how to you think it effects their long term health and breedable lifespan?

thanks in advance

This is why I asked Frank to chime in on my earlier post.

I think he said that powerfeeding does NOT effect the overall health and size and neither does early breeding.

..but he says it with so much more authority than I

"Mighty fine insights"? I am really nt sure how to take that, or how it is meant. It sounds somewhat condesending? I would stress first that I am not a hobbiest. I am actually a genetic researcher. Go to my website linked below to look at my range of study. My snakes represent one little part of what I work wtih. As to your list of record keeping points. Yes, I do, as amatter of fact, keep very good records, because I was trained to do so, for all my work and study. Finally, I would point out that in the posts I made, I was simply sharing observations and thoughts. I have been keeping and breeding snakes since I was 7. I am now 37, so I actually have a decade on your "twenty year" assessment, lol. Yet, again, I was only sharingobservations. Did you not note tha part where I said that? And where I said I would get back to everyone in a decade or two on some of these points. I wasnt being to facitious, as I realize it would take that time span to really get a grip on any real solid trends. So, I hope I am just not able to interpret your tone in your reply. Thanks.
Brian Reeder
Panoplia Geneticus

"Mighty fine insights" means exactly what it says. Take it at face value, rather than try to twist it into something negative.

I also stated "most people don't keep accurate records." Do you want to debate this?

The hobby of breeding snakes is about 20 years old, do you deny this? Most people have been breeding snakes for 20 years or less. Just because you've been doing it longer doesn't mean that everyone else is in the same time frame.

If anything my post reflects some pretty generally accepted guidelines.

You stated "I was simply sharing observations and thoughts."

So was I.

Get over it.

Tim

Im not upsetabout anything nor am I trying to twist anything into anything. I just came on this d*mned board to ask a simple question. I got answers that went differentways and that was interesting. I shared some of my own observations and so did others. I just didnt want to offend you. I am sorry that these boards have degenerated over the years to such a sad state that everything mentioned is an offense of some kind. I really tried to stay as neutral with this question, my questions to you and my observations as posible. I am not part of the hobby, so I cant answer your questions. From what I have seen with the one simple question I asked here, I wouldnt want to be part of this hobby anyhow. It's like your all three year olds in some sort of race to the fini$h line. I am sorry that you took me out of context. I had no idea what you meant and I just wanted to be sure. So there is nothing for anyne toget over, but liooks like there is a lot of growing up to do on these boards. I am really so sorry for you all and for your hobby. Thanks for all you have taught me here.
BDR

Actually, I believe it was you who took me out of context, not the other way around. Also, you ought to invest in SpellCheck. If you're going to refer to those who post on this forum as "three year olds," then maybe you should spell like an adult.

Tim

Can we stop making sweeping generalizations about everyone who uses the forum? It attracts all types.

Thanks for turning an interesting thread into a cat fight.

Really very worthwhile.

Zach,

I did not make any "sweeping generalizations about the people on this forum." I did share my observations of snake breeding and snake breeders though - which is the purpose of a forum like this.

I don't think defending my post constitutes as a "catfight."

I didn't see you contribute much to this thread, other than whine for your "guru" Frank to post a reply.

Tim

I just find it funny how defensive people get on these forums.

Hahahahahahah.

Its a few sentences typed on a screen. Someone has a different idea then them and people can't hang.

And no you did not see too much useful info from me in this thread. I proposed what relavent knowledge I had and no more. You know why? Because I have only been breeding snakes for 10 years and this thread is about very long term health effects, which for obvious reasons I have no first hand experience with. And unlike some people on this forum I try not to spew 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge as fact. So yes I tuck my tail, curb the pride and ask people who really know.

And you know what... There are a few people on this forum who have been breeding kings much longer then 20 years and they have kept good records as well. So i ask you, whats the harm in asking a question? And why bite my head off about it?

have a wonderful day... its nice out... snakes are feeling the love in the air, we all can too
-zach

Thank you all for your opinions and observations. I feel more comfortable with the older and larger females, but that may just be my feelingand not reflect reality, but interesting to know this guy isnt just telling a nice story, lol. That happens way too often.
I think the comment about the older females not bred till five or six as interesting. Could you elaborate more on this. I tend to not like to breed my females until they are four or five. I feed strongly in the first year and then cut back and slow grow the snakes until they are about three-four, then feed up well, hibernate and breed at four or five.I have laways gotten the results I wanted. No double clutching, I just dont need it. I dont breed comercially and dont sell, so no need for numbers. What I do find that I really like about this method is that my females live to be quite old, are reproductive for a long time and I rarely get any egg binding. It works for me, but might not for others.
Thanks again all for the input.
BDR