Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can anyone think of a good evolutionary reason why almost all kingsnakes have white (or at least some white) faces? I have been pondering it for a few days and I can't think of anything.

Thats the way God made them.

Thats a beautiful king you have there! BTW, I saw your post on my picture... what do you fly?
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger & Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)

i fly cessnas i want to fly jets later after i get my licence

Cessnas... what kind? Or do you fly a few types? You say you've been working on your lisence for a few years... why so long? I got mine in 9 months and I thought that took forever! Where abouts do you fly?
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger & Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)

i fly cessna 150, 152, and 172's. i started when i was 10 (my 10th birthday so 5 years on thursday) i have to be 16 to get my solo license and 17 to get my pilot license. i fly out of oxnard.

Ohhh... ok. That's why, I guess I didn't realize you weren't old enough for it yet. That's awesome though, getting a head start on things. I started flying when I was 15, lots of fun! I'm 21 now, and what I still can't get over is that I can rent a plane without a problem, but I'm still not old enough to rent a car! Get that!

Keep up the flying!
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger & Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)

thanks...if the california rule changes on driveing i can get my pilots licesence before my drivers. :0

I like your style, kid! Good answer!
Todd Hughes

i like to keep things simple and i like to let people see the kind of person i am even if the disrespect me for it...thanks...1 more year untill i fly solo! i have to go to arizona and do some herping.

Keep learning fighterpilot and I'm sure you will!
Todd Hughes
P.S. Take me with you I want to find a green rat and a crazy pattered splendida like this one!

kinda like..this one my dads friend gave it to me..its a wild caught from greenvalley arizona

Let me try this one. From the pespective of an eastern.

I dwell near the streams, wetlands and waste places. In my prefered habitat the vegetation grows very dense. The light from both sun and moon penetrates the vegetation in a dappled and splotchy effect. Whether moving or waiting silently my overall pattern blends with the splothces of dabbled light. The damp vegetation shines as does my skin. A chipmunk intent on foraging passes near slowly I start toward my mark. I emerge from the vegetation as the chipmunk turns to stare. With searching gaze it fails to see me. It sees only the shadows and dappled light playing across the trees, shrubs, and sedges. My eyes are well hidden and my outline obscured with erratic white markings that confuse and hide my form from the color-blind prey I seek.
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Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.4 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana super peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic

That does make some sense. The overall dappled/striped pateren makes sense to me but why would the face be white across the board. I would think white would be more conspicuous for even colorblind prey.

Why is it only kings and not rat snakes, milk snakes or other colubrids within the same habitat?

At first I was thinking that it might alow them to keep their head cooler then the rest of their body... but that doesn't make too much sense. Especially since the top of the head is normally black and the area around the mouth is white.

Then I was thinking that maybe having white around their eyes would help catch more light in dim lighting... But thats pretty week too and especially because most kings have a black scale under the eye like a football player.

My last idea is that it could have to do with species recognition. I know that they are probobly much more in tune with smell then sight but maybe? I couldn't think of many geographic areas where there are more then one species of snake with a white face. (although the southwest has a few)...

hmmmmm.....

anyone else?

Several species and sub-species of lampropeltis have some white markings on their face, but I don't think you can say they almost all do. MBKs and Desert Kings have almost all black faces. Some nigra and holbrooki have very little white at all on the face. Calligaster, Mexicana, Alterna, Zonata, and many subspecies of triangulum have little or no white on the face. Almost all pyros do have white faces. I think that you are basing your judgement on getula only. I like getula, but let's remember there are 7 other species of kingsnake out there.

I know of at least one person who thought that the black/white markings on cornsnake heads are "tooth markings" that give the impression to predators of large teeth....don't know if I agree with that but here's an example of a Cornsnake with white facial markings along with an Eastern King photo for comparison

Where is the cornsnake in this pic from?(just curious)It looks like some I've seen in Va. jeff

...zebras exibit the same effect - their stripes make it hard for predators to follow motion and pick out an individual. This works well against visual predators, as lions are to zebra. (The US Navy used a similar camo pattern on warships during WW II in the Pacific theater.)

Perhaps the best analogy would be hawks that prey on snakes. Hawks are almost entirely visual predators, if the hawk had to hesitate in order to pick out the snakes head amongst all the flashing bars, the king would have more time to escape - a survival advantage to the barred/chain patterned king.

As to why there are white face kings, I think that from above, the contrasting white and black markings breaks up the outline of their head (against hawks), and from the side, makes it harder to spot their eyes. (The stripe through the cornsnake's eye serves the same purpose, and is utillized by human commandos (at least Hollywood thinks so)). But the king's tactic appears more effective to me. I often find it difficult to spot a king's eyes in photos - perhaps if a rat can't see the king's eyes, the rat may not realize he's being stalked.

Like so:

/ / / / / / / / /
/ j o h n d/ /
/ / / / / / / /

Well, maybe not....LOL
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0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"

To the contrary. I think that these colors are meant to be obvious. The zebra theory only makes it hard to pick an individial out of the group. Kingsnakes are solitary.

This is a very interesting topic!

Zach wrote: "The zebra theory only makes it hard to pick an individial out of the group."

I agree, the dazzle theory applies on a large scale (e.g, a herd of zebra) and an idividual zebra sticks out like a sore thumb, at least to a lion.

I would liken the entire snake to the herd, and individual bars/chains to individual zebra. By analogy, when in motion, the solitary king's bar/chain pattern may make it hard to pick out and attack a particular part of the snake, such as the vulnerable head. If a hawk can't find the snake's head he may hesitate, miss, or not attack at all. Its the same priciple, on a different scale.

However, even if this theory holds water for the barred/chained races, it doesn't explain L. g. holbrooki, nigra, and nigrita. Further, why does californiae appear in both barred and striped patterns?

I agree about the "want to be noticed strategy" this is highly effective for the coral snake, which has been known to kill attacking birds of prey. Hence the widespread mimicry of the "warning colors"by our cherished L. trianglum. I don't think this holds for the chained/barred kings, since they are not venomous and don't resemble many venomous snakes.

Like I said above this is a great topic, with lots of room for interpretation and theorizing!

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CHEERS!_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_(:>-< John D
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0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"

You bring up another interesting topic. Stripes vs. Bands...

Striping is much more heritable (dominant if you'll use the mendelian term loosely). So why don't all cal king populations shift towards more stripers. Based on genetics alone that should be the case. Clearly there is some selective proccess that allows the bandeds to survive with higher frequency, and thus maintain the advantage over a genetically stronger striped trait. Personally I think that the bands break up the snakes outline better, especially in grass/twigs ect.

All of this still does not really explain why most getula have strikingly visible white faces. So far the two best ideas I have heard are that it may be involved in conspecific species recognition, and it may also act to deter predators by making the mouth look bigger or have big teeth.

It's from Northern GA. Nice animals, too bad they can't be bred into some of the mutations out there to provide better contast without the lizard feeding, small adult size that the "miami phase" can exhibit...There are of course other areas where similar animals can be found...VA, Okeechobee and surrounding counties in FL, the sandhills of NC to name a few....here's the whole animal.

Here's a couple of shots of some Easterns to keep this on topic

except for the reflected light on her labials this girl has no white
Seriuosly, I can't think of any reasons.
:Mark

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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

First you should consider the task of color and pattern. In many cases, its cryptic. In other words its intent is to blend in with its enviornment.

Then you should consider what a certain species or color types enviornment is. Many snakes such as kingsnakes are fossorial. That is, they predominately live underground or inside of something.

Snakes that work the surface a lot tend to be cryptic. Snakes that live underground do not need to be cryptic. These snakes often develop patterns and colors that go in the opposite direction. That is, the color is meant to be seen. Many highly fossorial snakes tend to have highly contrasting colors. For instance bi and tri colored. They tend to be banded. Alternating lite and dark colors, is to be seen.

Its my opinion that this alternating of contrasting colors is a means of identifying themselves to other members of their group(family, own kind, etc)

Many species do both, they can have highly cryptic patterns, then mess up that approach with highly visable areas. For instance, diamonback rattlesnakes. They are highly cryptic, but have black and white banded tails. They use this tail to be seen, they will raise it and wave the tail, and of course heard, they will rattle. I know this is used to comunicate with members of their own kind. But it also works for predators. You heard the rattle, then see, a moving black and white section. I dare you to go after what you see. There are many reptiles that have cryptic pattens, and black and white tails. One monitor does this, the Kimberly rock monitor. These will raise their tail strait up and wiggle it, to get the attention of another Kimberly rock monitor. There are mammals that do this as well.

Also consider, colors and patterns are not a one purpose type of creation. I am sure, its more complicated then that.

Also, kingsnakes are polymorphic, which means, they use many color and pattern approaches to succeed. These approaches may be localized or even individual. Other species have very uniform color and pattern. These species may not have a lot of behavioral choices.

So, in my opinion, black and white bands are to be seen. Particularly in low lite or almost no lite.

With the above said, colors in reptiles are also envolved in absorbing and losing heat. Black snakes absorb and lose heat faster then lite colored snakes. Lite colored snakes tend to be nocturnal and fossorial. White or lite colors not only reflect heat, but they also enclose heat as well. We have coachwhips, that can be all black, or lite orange or anything inbetween. This most likely means, each has its advantages.

Just some thoughts. Cheers

Cal kings have a white face because it goes along with thier pattern. Their banded pattern blurs while they are on the move making it harder for predators to pick up where the snakes head is located. There's a term for this, I just have forgotten what it is.