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Hatchling Problems

beachbeardies Apr 12, 2006 04:52 AM

ok this is my 2nd full season of breeding beardies. i have had the usual newbie mistakes happen and all. but this time its different. i have at least 3 hatchlings with feet rotting off. 2 have the left rear foot rotting off and one has the front right foot rotting off. the toes of these babies dont look like they were ever seperated, sorta like a "webbed toe" thing going on. the foot turns black and dries out and falls off. i have put quickstop on the wounds of all the dragon this has happen to so it doesnt spread to the legs. i have never had this happen with any other clutch. i also had one baby who had an arm totally cut off, didnt look like a bite from another dragon, it was clean cut off. i tried to save the little one but it didnt make it. id like to know what is going on? is this a normal thing happening or something that im doing wrong?

also does anyone know or use a humane way of uthenizing a dragon other than spending alot of money to have a vet do it? i know its a hard thing to do and i dont look forward to ever doing it but its better than having a dragon suffer.

Replies (13)

mystical-dragons Apr 12, 2006 10:28 AM

It sounds like you have a nipper in the bunch.. Even a toe nip if not taken care of can get infected/gangrene and spread up the legs.. How big are the cages, how many to a cage, and what type of feeding routine are they on? Any food items being left in throughout the night?

unfortuntely I do not know of any cheap ways to put down. I suggest a vet for this. I heard many crock pot ideas of how to put down over the years, and all of them have not been to kind or in some way caused pain/suffering before death.
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

beachbeardies Apr 12, 2006 12:09 PM

i have 23 dragons seperated them half in one cage half in another. they are in large size rubbermaid containers, used as rearing bins. i keep greens in overnight. crickets are usually gone as soon as i put them in the cage but i remove the ones that they dont eat.

as for putting down fatally ill or hurt dragons i have heard people putting them in rthe freezer is an ok way but id thought id ask others. they said it just puts them to sleep. if anyone knows a better way other than a vet please let me know

Mystical-Dragons Apr 12, 2006 01:12 PM

Yeah, reason I asked about crickets being left in is they will seek a source of moisture even if it's dranage from a wound or an open sore. They will go back night after night and reopen wounds of sleeping dragons.

other then the normal feeding issues or overcrowding issues which would cause one dragon to nip another either accidentaly or on purpose I'm not sure what could cause your problem. I haven't heard of anything other then infected wounds that would cause infections and necrotic skin like what you described.

The freezer method is one of those inhumane crock pot ideas that have been thrown around threw years.. The thought thinking cold would put the dragon to sleep, and then soon after death.. The fact is just like an ice cube freezes it freezes from outside in.. meaning toes feet arms leg freeze and splinter before any organs that would lead to death.
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

Mystical-Dragons Apr 12, 2006 01:21 PM

in most cases if you brought in a group of tiny baby dragons to put down they will do the whole group for the price of one. I mean each baby needs a drop of that liquid. I know my vet charges $65 dollars. I can't see them going alright $65 x 5 you owe me $325. call them up see what the deal is. In my opinion this $65 is worth the piece of mind it was done right.
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

beachbeardies Apr 12, 2006 04:09 PM

thanks for your help. i think i will be lowering the number i put in a rearing bin on the next clutch. probably do 6 dragons per cage next time. and yes i also do think the problem is a nipper dragon. went to check on them earlier and had another baby with a wound on the leg, this one looking like a bite. no missing limbs yet but a nice gash.

ya i figured the freezer method was a horrible idea for putting a reptile down. didnt sound to great. i guess ill have to stick with a vet until someone comes out with a humane way to do it yourself.

mystical-dragons Apr 13, 2006 12:25 PM

Ohh Man sorry you had another nip. That one has to be separated out. Try to find him a home early where he'll be the only dragon in the tank. I start my babies in 65 quart rubbermaid/sterlites then as they grow (about 2 weeks)I separate them by size into larger 95 quart bins. I try to keep as few as possible to a bin. I made a shelf system out of a wire rack they sell at home depot. It has 4 shelves, and I can fit 3 bins per shelf. The lights get attached to each shelves bottom, and the shelves can be raised and lowered depending on what sized bins you use. Works well and gives lots of housing options.

it's not done in this picture but you'll get the idea. The top row of bins are 65 quart, and the bottom two rows are 95 quart. As they age grow and new clutches hatch I move them down into larger bins. I use dual 4ft fixtures with UVB bulbs, and found incandescent fixtures that attach to the wire shelving. Each levels fixtures are run together, and I use 75 watt halogens for each, and each row gets plugged into a dimmer. The dimmer lets me dim the lights of each level, and helps me get perfect basking temps for the babies.

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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

FireDrake Apr 13, 2006 07:30 PM

I know you said the whole thing wasnt done, do you have any pictures of one that is done? I am curious how you get a heat source to each and every bin. BTW this is a great idea... I might have to copy you, I have been searching for a better way to raise my babies.

Thanks!

Sarah
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FireDrake Exotics
www.FireAndLilac.com

Mystical-dragons Apr 14, 2006 12:44 PM

The reason I didn't post the finished product yesterday was because I actually took it down yesterday morning. LOL figures. I'm actually moving this week so everything is getting packed up and moved. Finally going to have my own reptile room!! I'm as happy as a pig in mud.. yeah something like that. That's a huge plus with this rack. If your done for the season you just break it down, and put it in storage till next time.

It's basically fairly easy to attach lights. I found these awesome fixtures that hook on to the wire rack at home depot.. i actually got a pic of the part number, so that should help you find it.. just take that number to the store, and ask where they keep it. Of course it'll be in electrical by all the other fixtures, so you can just go and look there too LOL.

I'll do my best for you anyway. Basically I just take a regular extension cord run it from one side of the shelf to the other and mark it where it is in the middle of each bin. Then these fixtures are cool... you just split the cord in the middle where the fixture should go. you put the fixture through the cord so each side of the cord runs on each side of the fixture.. then you spin the fixture causing a razor to splice into each side of the extension cord, and bingo you got light!!

everything gets run to one side of the unit where they all get plugged into a surge protector and timer.


This picture shows the fixture top open. you put the wire so one is on one side, and the other on other, then you just twist and snap it shut


ahh and why not.. freshly shed Myah babies

if you'd like drop me an email, and I'll get a picture to you when I have it set up again.
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Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

FireDrake Apr 14, 2006 08:27 PM

I'll show this to my boyfriend, he is more electricity minded than I am!

Sarah
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FireDrake Exotics
www.FireAndLilac.com

beachbeardies Apr 13, 2006 11:03 PM

this is a great idea. i will be doing the same someday, hopefully soon. right now i have a closet in my "dragon room" set up simial. i built shelvs in he closet where the bins sit and the pole that was in there where you hang clothes, i hang my heat lamps off of that over the bins. and the bottom underneath or the shelf i have the UVB florescents mounted. this is the first clutch i had with so many hatchlings and i just put too many in one bin not knowing this would happen. i have learned and will do better on my next clutch. i guess everyone has to learn from their own experiences and sometimes mistakes. thanks for all your help though, i appreciate it. alot of breeders are willing to only help and give advice to a limit so they do not give away their "secrets" i appreciate all your time and advice

PHLdyPayne Apr 12, 2006 04:16 PM

Seems to be a combination of problems. Bites from cage mates certainly can get infected easily, especially given nearly 14 are in each cage and babies do poop alot. I would separate into groups of 4-5 in roomy cages and isolate those who are showing any sign of injury to legs or tail.

The fact some appear to have webbed feet or improperly grown toes, could mean defects in the hatchlings themselves, either from fluctuating incubation temps (if it got too hot for a short period of time, birth defects can occur) or genetic defects. As all North American bearded dragons are genetically related to some extent or another, it is possible to have recessive negative mutations come up, if both parents carry the recessive mutation. If this is the first clutch that showed any such problems, (and I do beleive you mentioned you have bred them before, though not sure if the first clutches had simplar problems) it could be a problem with the incubator you use. However if you have more than one clutch in the incubator and they all hatch up fine, then it could be a genetic problem that doesn't come up all the time. May be a good ideal to switch the male with this female next year to see how that goes.

You can always call your vet and ask him how much it would cost to get X amount of bearded dragon babies euthanized. He may give you a good price. The only other method I can think of that is humane and should work with bearded dragons is building a CO2 tank. Many people (especially snake owners) who breed their own feeder mice/rats use these tanks to humanely put down their feeder rodents. It takes a bit of money to set up, but typically fairly cheap to maintain. You basically use a tightly sealed jar or small sealed box (made of acrylic or glass sealed tightly with a tightly fitting lid) with two hoses coming out of it. One on top and one near the bottom. The top hose usually goes into water, so air can be pushed out of it, but not be sucked back in. The lower hose is attached to a CO2 tank (like the propellent tank for paintball guns). SOme people also use dried ice to produce CO2 but I don't know for sure how that is setup (if the ice is put directly into the kill jar or in a separate jar). THe biggest cost is the refill hose used for the canister of CO2 and the canister itself. I have included a link on how to make this kill tank below, as I was just goign by memory above and may not have all the details right.

If you have friends who own snakes and breed their own feeders, ask if they have a kill tank you can borrow, to put your bearded dragon hatchlings to sleep. They may be happy to let you borrow it, or offer to put them down for you. Maybe offer some money to cover the cost of CO2 used, which shouldn't be very much. ($5-$10 is probably all it costs to refill the CO2 canister)

www.junglemistreptiles.com/co2.html
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PHLdyPayne

jmarchon Apr 12, 2006 09:21 PM

I agree that it sounds like there is a nipper in the bunch. For me it was a matter of getting my temps right in the hatchling tanks before I eliminated all but the occaissional nip. Check your temps.

Some vets will adjust the price based on the amount of material needed. Then you pay for a small animal vet visit and very little extra.
J. Marchon Reptiles

beachbeardies Apr 13, 2006 01:04 AM

thanks for everyones help and advice, i appreciate it alot. this is the largest clutch i have had hatch. only 1 egg didnt not hatch. ive had smaller clutches in the past from this pair and the larger clutches about half have been unfertile or just not made it. so its been a bit of trial and error, mixed with some bad advice from other people. but i glad im getting the good advice i need through this website and through everyone here. thanks everyone

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