Reptile & Amphibian Forums

is 115 grams a ok breeding size for a female cal king or should i wait another year? i have another female thats about 210 thant im going to breed with the male thats 505 grams. the smaller male is 145 grams. and all the rest im going to wait another year or 2.

I think that your getting into this way to early with these animals. Yes, people have succesfuly bred at lighter than normal weights, and in the wild they breed at all different times, but we dont know how that turns out. Whats the rush, Give these animals another year.

thanks so ill just breed one pair this year. The 210 gram and the 505 gram.

Yes, I must be old or something, as this all escapes me. You do not breed kingsnakes, they bred eachother. You do not cycle kingsnakes, they do so when their ready. That is, unless you stop them by providing unsuitable conditions.

Reptiles will produce ovum(eggs) when they are ready to breed. The reality is, its far harder on them to absorb ovum, then to lay eggs. Consider, they are designed to lay eggs when THEY are ready.

They have gone tens of thousands of years reproducing when they are ready. No matter how young or small they may be. Thats their choice.

All you do is provide support or withhold support. I simply do not understand not supporting an animal doing what its designed to do. They they cycle at ten months of age, then so be it. Thens their choice. My job is to only support their choices.

If a female is to young or small to breed, she will not produce eggs. Its all that simple. Cheers

FR,
I agree with your last post - but wouldn't you agree that you should not put a 115 gram female King in with a mature male King - even if the female is physiologically able to produce eggs?

I don't know, I just think that these snakes are not in the wild - they are captive animals under controlled conditions and we should not force them into breeding at such a young age.

Also consider that a King in captivity will reach 115 grams at a much younger age than a King in the wild. Personally, I wait until female Kings are at least 350 grams. That is my benchmark.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

....peter you'd be surprised how fast snakes grow in the wild....i used to think the same thing-as we keep them in (what we perceive as) ideal conditions/temp/feeding schedule,etc......what more could they want?until i saw living proof opposing my notion...i have seen several different species,genera and even families of snakes that were growing fine in my opinion in captivity,and was shocked to see there siblings in the wild outgrowing them...obviously the result of limitless thermoregulating,as opposed to being restrained in a 3'x2'x1' sterilite,etc....
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Justin,

How do you know that the snakes you saw in the wild were the same age? Were they tagged or something?
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

yeah they were marked peter....adn let me say,i was really surprised...kind of made me reconsider,that perhaps i'd underestimated/figured out 'mother nature',lol....and how i may be doing so now in other ways...i.e. it was an eye opener.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Justin,

Why do you say that it is obviously due to thermoregulating?
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

n/m
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Peter, a guy you know down here (as well as me in the past)found a FL king that was probably around that weight and had eggs in her. If I remember, one or two eggs were bound in his snake but later passed.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Are his initials "LP"???
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Yes they are. One lucky dawg finding any getula in our neck of the woods these days!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Heres the point, a snake is immature, a baby, or juvinile until its ovaries develop or its gonads mature. Then when they mature, its a full functioning adult.

When a female develops eggs/ovum, she emitts phermones that signal males that she is ready to breed. She is attracting a male. There is reason for this. She is READY to breed. At this time, she is overtly asking to be bred. When you fail to allow a male to breed a cycled female, you are interfering with normal behavior.

If you are experiencing failures with young or small animals. Its not their fault, its your fault. YOU(whichever keeper) is FAILING to support that female.

Its very easy to see that a very large individual with lots of bulk(reserves) can overcome your errors. And a young small female, may not have the reserves to overcome your errors in husbandry. I have to wonder why many think its better to alter their activities then fix your husbandry.

What really bothers me is that sick attitude, It animal fails, so keepers blame the animals. OH my, how sad is that? Sirs and sirettes, its your/our stinking fault it an animal fails, get over it. Our job as keepers is to attempt to provide support. Its always an attempt. We can succeed and we can fail. But to automatically fail to avoid addressing your husbandry is not to good is it?

In captivity, reptiles give us signs that we are doing something wrong. These signs often end with their death and failures. That sir is how me measure our success. Its not to blame the animals. If they fail to do whats natural for them, they we are at fault.

Also, no one said you have to put a small female with a giant male. That is very odd. Try pairing a small female with a suitable sized male. Now normal does that sound?

All in all, if you have young ones fail, thats an indicator that your husbandry is marginal. No more, no less. Cheers

That sums it up rather well, wouldn't you say?

Good job Frank.

Kerby...

I agree with Kerby and FR in that there would be no harm for a female breeding at a young age. If she is too young then she simply wont produce eggs nor breed. In other words if you put your small female in with a male either she will breed because she is ovulating (if she is ovulating then she is ready to breed, arguement over) or she wont because she isnt ready. I simply believe a female will only copulate when she is ovulating or she doesnt waste her time and/or energy. Ive observed breeding many times and if a female doesnt want to breed she wont I dont care how small are big she is that male will be rebuffed lol.

Keith
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FR,

You have many wise inputs of advice, but I don't agree with you here. Just because an animal is capable of producing offspring does not mean it will reproduce successfully. There is a difference. If you don't mind a dead female in exchange for a couple eggs, then that is what you may end up with. Many mammals' reproductive systems are capable of beginning reproduction, including humans, at an age where the rest of the physical body will be seriously comprimised if pregnancy and birth occurs, with the real possibility of death.
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Matt from Minnesota

I have bred cal kings at 18 months for quite awhile now and NEVER experienced a problem with any of them. Like Frank said, some won't breed at 18 months (not produce any eggs). I have NEVER had any egg laying difficulties at 18 months of age, NEVER had a cal king have their growth stunted because of breeding at 18 months, etc...

The only 2 snakes that I had be egg-bound were: an old Mex-Mex in the 1990's, and an older Newport Cal King. Both eventually passed the bound egg months later and continued to breed the next year.

I find it rather humerous that people will post on here asking questions because they are breeding for the first time and then a few months later they are spewing crap that they "have heard" as advice to the other newbies. TOO FUNNY.

Cheers

Kerby...

Kerby,

Do you feel that breeding a snake at a small size stunts its growth? Also, do you think doing so shortens the snake's lifespan.

Tim

Kerby...

That stuff is such very old wifetails.

The problem is my title, from what to what. I have multiclutched kingsnakes for 18 strait years(many females) then they became inconsistant, that is, they stopped multiclutching every year, then stopped breeding every year, then at around 25 years of age, they stopped breeding, then lived for a few more years.

So I guess they could have lived for 40 years, so if that was the case, yea, it shortened their lives from 40 years to the late twenties. In all reality, who cares. Over twenty is plenty long enough.

Now consider, the vast majority of you worried about his are going to lose your kingsnakes long before that even twenty years goes by. Your going to have them die, get away, sell them, etc. So what the heck are you worrried about.

To me, theres only one fear. Your afraid of you lack of knowledge. So your not allowing things you do not understand. Hey, at least be truthfull about it. Cheers

Frank or Kerby,
How big do you get a female in 18 months? I'm just curious as to length/size of the animals you are breeding for the first time. I have never tried to power feed my snakes like crazy, and I have always had success with breeding females after their second winter. I have never had an eggbound female. Do you think that they can go earlier then this? I don't cool my snakes for there first winter and even with a shortened light cycle, they feed and grow right through winter. As a result (I think) I find that not too many females ovulate at 18 months. I probobly just dont feed quite as heavily either. Do you feed or do you cool them to induce breeding at such a young age?

Also, what is the smallest that you have seen gravid kings in the wild?

cheers
zach

a sick term.

What does power feeding mean? Does it mean feeding more then an animal normally eats? Does it mean feeding it when its not hungry? Does it mean using a mechanical device like a caulking gun? I am not sure what that is suppose to mean.

If it means I feed my snakes more then you or someone else, and my grow larger and faster. Then I am not sure the term is accurate, maybe it should be reversed. Like maybe your underfeeding.

Again, the cart seems to be pulling the horse. Wild snakes feed when hungry. Lets understand that better, they feed as soon as they are hungry. If foods abundand, they feed at will(which is normal. Just look at the health of the snakes. Of course there are times when food is not abundant and the snakes suffer and sometimes die. Sometimes its inbetween, so the snakes feed but do not progress. Is that what your doing? hahahahahahahaha Just offering a poor feeding season.

Lastly growth is not all about how much they eat, but as much about how they use their food. Remember, they are cold blooded. That means they need to seek the temps that fit what their needs are.

A snake like any other animal will feed until its no longer hungry. Do you feed your animals until they are not hungry? I am guessing you don't. How would you like to be fed a cupcake, once a day. Who cares if you go around begging for food. Don't worry, we will bring you another cupcake tomorrow at the same time. Wait. what is tomorrow? Its Sat. How about I will bring you a cupcake on monday. That is, if I am not busy.

So power feeding should not be confused with underfeeding. Should it? Cheers

I have seen lots snakes that people have fed endlessly to get maximum growth. Frequently they look like a sausage. They are short, have tiny heads, and imense body fat. I'm sure you have seen these snakes as well.

So you are saying that with optimal husbandry, a snake should be able to use (healthily) as much food as it chooses to eat? (without looking like that)

I have some that are bottomless pits and I don't feel too bad about cutting them off after the 5th mouse in a week. I feel like all animals including my dog, my cat, and myself will eat more then is good for us if given the opurtunity. Am I anthropomorphizing? Does this idea just not apply to snakes?

I try to feed my snakes based on when I see them out looking for food, and partially by when they deffecate. And I THINK that I am satisfied with the growth that they show. Thats why I was asking about the size of yours. You have obviously had success breeding snakes at 18 months and having them go on to live long productive lives. I just wanted to see how their growth compares to mine.

cheers

But of course use common sense. They eat like pigs when they need it. Then they can go long periods in convervation mode, like winter or spring, or midsummer and not feed at all.

The problem with people is, they have no understanding of animals, they only understand schedules. They surely can tell its tuesday, but cannot tell a snake needs food.

So AGAIN yes, snakes require the use of a range of temps to control the use of Calories. This people should understand, its taught on the first page of the herp section in biology. OK, maybe the second page. Nope, the first page.

As I have babbled ten thousand times, WILD(real) or allowed to be real snakes, spend their entire lifes picking the right temps for the task at hand. Yet yours are givin a five degree range?????????? oh yea, its very easy to understand why captives can get fat, lack of temp choices and a constant food source.

Just think, what you would feed like if you were starved most of the time??????? Seriously, you should think about this. Cheers

I don't know why you think this is "TOO FUNNY" but it's not. 18 months is a fine age to breed a king if its big enough. Were yours only weighing in at 4 oz??? 'Cause that's how big this guys king is. Most kings lay more eggs than that snake weighs...

I think you and FR are far too concerned about your own theory rather than answering this guys simple question regarding his king. The advice and theory that I threw out there in my original post was in regards to his 115gm animal - the female in question. It sounds like this is his first season breeding, and he's looking for PRACTICAL and SAFE advice for his young kings. He's mature enough to openly express interest and concern for waiting 'till next year. I've had corns accidently breed at very small size such as that and the effects are disasterous for a PET snake. It seriously stunts their growth and puts undo stress unto a small snake - my particular female was egg bound for months and luckily passed them. In the wild if that snake can throw out a few eggs and die she did her job at reproducing the species ... is that what you think this person's (Fighterpilot) goals are with this 115 gram snake?

Go ahead and tell this guy to breed his king and tell yourself that's good advice.

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Matt from Minnesota

In response to your demeaning last paragraph aimed at me regarding breeding:

I've been successfully breeding my corns since 1999 - every year except two in which I was deployed overseas in the military.

Yes, this is only my second season breeding kings.

I'll leave it up to you to say things without knowing someone's background.

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Matt from Minnesota

**I've been successfully breeding my corns since 1999 - every year except two in which I was deployed overseas in the military.**

Great, and what does that comment have to do with breeding 18 month old cal kings? So, you've been breeding for 4 years (2 years on deployment)... like I said, you have very little experience in breeding snakes.

**Yes, this is only my second season breeding kings.**

And your answer shows that.

Kerby...

Well, here's your last paragraph which I already referenced to-

*I find it rather humerous that people will post on here asking questions because they are breeding for the first time and then a few months later they are spewing crap that they "have heard" as advice to the other newbies. TOO FUNNY. *

That's why I simply mentioned to you that your comment is inconsistent with my experience.

Kerby - if you want to continue to give me slander in the topic subject how about you just send me a personal note and we can talk about my attention levels and inexperienced comments. If my small female almost died then how is that not experience?

In the words of my dog - chilllll

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Matt from Minnesota

So exactly what got your dander in a ruffle?

This??...**I find it rather humerous that people will post on here asking questions because they are breeding for the first time and then a few months later they are spewing crap that they "have heard" as advice to the other newbies. TOO FUNNY.**

I stand by that 100%...because it is TRUE LOL

It is true..if you feel that it applies to you...then maybe it does...but please refrain from throwing "crap advice" around when you have little experience..or just go to the Cornsnake Forum where the "newbies" are now giving advice LOL

Or you can go around repeating what you've heard over & over...and over...and over..and over..again without anything to back it up...besides a data base of one (1).

I'll continue breeding cal kings at 18 months (most of them) like I have for the 100's of clutches....

Cheers

Kerby...

... is to hold off another year for a 115 gram female king in regards to breeding. I don't care if you breed at 12 months, 18, or whatever. 115 grams, regardless of age, will probably just not be worth the time, especially seeing that it is a young snake that will probably produce a nice clutch next year.

So, my simple question to you is - what crap advice did I give???

I'm assuming you're reccomending he breed this 115gm female since my advice not too is "crap advice" ??

Every post I've made my view very clear to this question.

Kerby, what is your view on breeding a 115gm female king? I'm very curious...honestly... I'm always looking to add other's experience to my "database". Notice how I'm not hitting you with slander...

Another question - how much do your 18 month old snakes weigh? I'm simply curious.
- Mine weigh many times more than 115 gms....

Here's a 16 month old Lampropeltis of mine...

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Matt from Minnesota

**If you don't mind a dead female in exchange for a couple eggs, then that is what you may end up with. Many mammals' reproductive systems are capable of beginning reproduction, including humans, at an age where the rest of the physical body will be seriously comprimised if pregnancy and birth occurs, with the real possibility of death.**

Need I comment on that?

**It seriously stunts their growth and puts undo stress onto a small snake-my particular female was egg bound for months and luckily passed them..**

No & no, there is no direct correlation (positive or negative) between the age/size of a snake and being egg bound.

**Personally, I don't double-clutch anything. It isn't a natural process for most snake species....**

Totally untrue.

**...my hypothesis is that what I come up with will include that this shortens the lifespan on adult females.**

Totally untrue.

p.s. 115 grams could be a short fat snake or a long thin snake.

Kerby...

I don't know where you found half of those quotes but I never said them. Is that what you were getting at?

So, I ask for the 3rd or 4th time - do you and would you reccomend fighterpilot breed a 115gm king female?

If you shy away from answering this time, I'm gonna call you out!!
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Matt from Minnesota

They are on this forum..get a clue bro.

You might be ignorant on some topics, but please don't be a liar. The whole world can see you in this lie. YOU MADE THOSE REMARKS ON THIS FORUM...JUST SCROLL DOWN AND ONTO THE OTHER PAGES.

What a joke...at least stand behind what you say...how can you just act like you never said these when YOUR NAME IS ALL OVER THESE STATEMENTS IN POSTS THAT YOU MADE?

Still clueless?? LOL

Do you want me to hold your hand and repost your posts for you? Maybe that will jog your memory. Ya know//

Kerby...

Posted by: mattcbiker at Thu Apr 13 11:39:43 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

FR,

You have many wise inputs of advice, but I don't agree with you here. Just because an animal is capable of producing offspring does not mean it will reproduce successfully. There is a difference. If you don't mind a dead female in exchange for a couple eggs, then that is what you may end up with. Many mammals' reproductive systems are capable of beginning reproduction, including humans, at an age where the rest of the physical body will be seriously comprimised if pregnancy and birth occurs, with the real possibility of death.
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Matt from Minnesota

Posted by: mattcbiker at Thu Apr 13 13:10:21 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I don't know why you think this is "TOO FUNNY" but it's not. 18 months is a fine age to breed a king if its big enough. Were yours only weighing in at 4 oz??? 'Cause that's how big this guys king is. Most kings lay more eggs than that snake weighs...

I think you and FR are far too concerned about your own theory rather than answering this guys simple question regarding his king. The advice and theory that I threw out there in my original post was in regards to his 115gm animal - the female in question. It sounds like this is his first season breeding, and he's looking for PRACTICAL and SAFE advice for his young kings. He's mature enough to openly express interest and concern for waiting 'till next year. I've had corns accidently breed at very small size such as that and the effects are disasterous for a PET snake. It seriously stunts their growth and puts undo stress unto a small snake - my particular female was egg bound for months and luckily passed them. In the wild if that snake can throw out a few eggs and die she did her job at reproducing the species ... is that what you think this person's (Fighterpilot) goals are with this 115 gram snake?

Go ahead and tell this guy to breed his king and tell yourself that's good advice.

There is another user name with "Matt" in the name. Two of those quotes came from the other Matt.

My bad

Kerby...

Kerby I sent you a PM.
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Matt from Minnesota

**If you don't mind a dead female in exchange for a couple eggs**

Kerby...

It is perfectly fine to breed cal kings at 18 months (and corns too). If they are too small, they won't breed. It does not affect them BECAUSE they are too small.

Kerby...

Humans are not a fair comparisson. In the US girls start menstration much earlier than in say Africa. Our food is the reason. In humans puberty is directly realated to fat content in the females. It starts when she has enough.

Later Jason

Good point Jason - and isn't that the point you were trying to make regarding CB vs. Wild snakes? What do you think the breeding of a 115gm king? Yeh or Neh?
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Matt from Minnesota

Matt,
The weight means nothing to me. I have no idea how big a snake is at that weight because I have never weighed a snake. I would go by the condition of the snake. The fact of wether it ovulated or not would also play a role. This is what I think the other guys are saying in much more agressive wordings. LOL

If a snake is too small it is too small. It will not ovulate and it will not breed. I have seen really small wild snakes gravid. The thing is the wild, snakes have control of their conditions and the captives are subject to our choices. This is what I think is the problem with breeding to small. The snakes don't get the options of food, heat, and humidity that they get in the wild. They get stuck in to small a cage and to few temps choices.

I don't think a ovulating snake in the wild will go without breeding, but I also think a small wild snake is less likely to ovulate because of the lower fat content in their bodies. SO I would need to see the snake in person or next to another snake. I did skip a chance to breed last year on a snake I felt was to small and she had ova like lumps all year and is now gravid... I don't know what stress this caused for the poor little girl.

later Jason

Jason,

I agree with your comments. This milk snake in my hand is about 70 grams.

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Matt from Minnesota

Jason, I'm really stupid here so forgive me. What do you determine is the right "fat level"?? Is fat necessarily associated with ovulation etc. in snakes??
I have so little data on stuff like that. Where can I get the info or papers??
Thanks.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

... I got a kick out of the "I never weighed one"
It made me think of the time I went to buy a scale...
well..picture me...then picture me asking the clerk for a digital scale to weigh in grams... "it's to weigh baby snakes..I swear!" uhh hmmm
I love to see them roll their eyes.....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Ha ha that is too funny.

Mark I will be in Daytona this year and I guess you will be there - so i will look for the guy with dreadlocks and a shaggy appearance?
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

hahaha..Well, if I have any hair at all by then it won't be in dreads...
I will be there but I gotta say I'm gettin' antsy about my breeders this year. Seem a few weeks behind normal and I like to time them (babies) for the show.
See ya there.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Well first off, yeah I don't have a digital scale because I just don't want to explain it to a cop. LOL Not that I have ever had one in my house, but I do have a big mouth and I can just see it now. Besides I don't have ball pythons, who else needs them??

As far as fat content that is more of a assumption. The fat percentage increases as the growth slows. Our snakes reach a certain length (variable) and start to slow length growth and fill out. At about this size the females are ready to breed. That is most of the time. If the female reaches an appropriate length at the right time of year and has a good feed schedule then she will more often than not ovulate. To ovulate she needs to have the calories available to produce and feed the eggs. If she has not put on any fat she will not have the calories to full fill her needs as a mother.

During the first stage of growth the females of say a eastern go from about 12 inches to about 24-30 inches without putting on much fat at all. From about 30 inches and up the snakes seem to put a little more in girth than length. ie fat. For me a well provided eastern would be ready to breed at about 36-40 inches. But that means she was feed well and got to about 24-30 inches the breeding season before which will allow for enough fat storage over the next year to be able to produce the big ole eggs that easterns do. It is more about the size the year before for me than the year they breed.

The thing I look for is the ovulation. Last year one of my easterns was right at 36 inches and she seemed to ovulate. She was put with multiple males but I never got any eggs. What I thought were ovum stayed all year and about 2-3 weeks ago they really swelled. So now I am sure she is ready. What does that prove??? Well she never produced eggs and she was still very thin last year and despite being with males she was not ready so she didn't breed. The animals figured it out. At the end of the day we can look at all the things we want to try to control our animals, but they still decide.

Later Jason

**To ovulate she needs to have the calories available to produce and feed the eggs. If she has not put on any fat she will not have the calories to full fill her needs as a mother.**

I disagree here. I believe that ONE OF THE FACTORS for ovulation is the frequency (not caloric intake) of meals after brumation, thus indicating an ample food supply. This has been shown in rattlesnakes.

Kerby...

If the female does not have the proper mass before she comes out of brumation then she is not going to ovulate. Yes you can feed every other day but I have not tried to do that. As I said in another post I will know what I am going to be able to breed next year in a couple of months. Post brumation feeding frenzy is not what I would rely on. I think in this case you are just arguing the point even though you would not power feed a female for 3 weeks to force a breeding out of her. I could be wrong though

later Jason

The reason I say this..is not what I do with my captives..as they have plenty of body mass going in and coming out of brumation..but because I have seen in Arizona during drought winters, rattlesnakes going in with good body mass but coming out looking like crap..and with a wet spring (not our strong point in Arizona LOL)..producing more food during the spring time..that they will breed and produce.

Kerby...

Those would be adult rattlers not 2nd season female kings as was the point of this thread. But yes a wet spring can mean that almost every adult rattle snake will be breeding even if they just produced the previous year. But rattle snake reproduction is far from kingsnakes.

later Jason

Have you noticed a higher number of small captive females producing ovum versus wild females. I ask this because I have noticed captive females are fattier (broad statement) from a captive diet of fatty mice. Where as a wild snake taking wild mice and reptiles and eggs and birds and umm .. what do you call it... variety lol. Well they would be less fatty and leanier as they should be.

So with that as a basis, what do you see?? I have a much better idea of this in corns but with the body differences and ranges I don't know if it correlates with california kings (snake in question). If we are talking corns my experience is look for ovum and then decide.

Later Jason

There are several things here that you are basing your thoughts on, that may not be realistic.

First, fatty mice, what are you feeding? I would do not feed overweight mice. Normal mice are fine.

What your missing here is not about mice. Like in the above, your blaming the wrong culprid. Snakes metabolism is temperature based. If they cannot reach full active temps, they tend to store fat. Think underactive thyroid in humans. This is a very easy subject to test. You can take two or more snakes and keep them at different levels of suitable temps. And feed them exactly the same. The one with has temps that allow full use of food, will grow long and skinny, The individual in using the middle will grow slower and thicker. The individual in the cooler range, if low enough will not grow much at all, but if warm enough to feed will get fat.

Thirdly, and of importance. Wild reptiles are often thinner because they have parasite loads, at all times, with every meal. Yet in captivity, we must eliminate parasites or the snake will fail. Hmmmmmmmmm they don't fail in nature, normally. Whats that all about?

So you have temps that effect the use of food. Then you have parasite loads. Then you have the quality of the food.

About varied diets. Nothing beats a good diet, and mice have proven to be a great diet, as are rats. A varied diet is necessary when the food items are inferior. So it takes several different food items to cover the gaps.

It seems to me, fat captive snakes are products of this marginal husbandry I mention. Offer a wider range of temps and you may not recieve fat snakes. Cheers

Also, fat is absolutely needed for reproduction.

Well I did say fattier mice but I don't see how you would argue that except to go to the extreme and use ex-breeders as a example. Like snakes wild mice are going to carry parasites and be leaner because of it as well as having a bigger area in which they live and less available food compared to mass produced mice. So yes I would say side by side a lab mouse is fattier than a wild mouse.

My point is more that captive snakes have a higher calorie diet than wild snakes and that would give them the ability, if caged properly to put on more fat. If you add in the lack of parasites that would make it even easier.

I just believe that we have a higher percentage of young snakes that are able to reproduce in captivity than in the wild. I was asking if what you have seen correlates to this belief or if you have seen something far different.

Later Jason

We have already reported finding gravid snakes that were close to a year in age. Rick Shine, reported finding 9 month old gravid water pythons.

About which does it more. Billions of snakes are gravid every year in nature, I am sure there are far more young ones gravid.

If your talking actual percentage, then who knows, as most wild snakes meet their maker very quickly. Thats the design of nature. Only a few strong and LUCKY ones survive.

In captivity, we have the ability to offer optimum conditions, but I fear, we have to know what that is first. Cheers