Reptile & Amphibian Forums

**Disclaimer**
I'm *relatively* new to the herp/leopard gecko/breeding scene about 2 years, not breeding yet, but planning on it) so forgive me if I don't know certain things people would consider obvious.

I spend vast amounts of time browsing breeders' websites, analyzing each and every gecko they have. I've noticed, though, that prices don't necessarily match the product. I see a quality Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot-tail, for example. Hypothetically, let's say it costs US$150.00. It comes from a reputable breeder who keeps track of his/her pedigreees. The animal is a paragon of its morph. There are no discolorations, patterns that shouldn't be there if it was a "true" SHTC, etc etc. I then browse another breeder's website. He/she also has a SHTC priced at US$150.00. It has qualities of a SHTC, but its coloration and patterning aren't as pure as they could/should be to match the price of the "perfect" specifmen. They offer no pedigrees or information about their breeding projects.

That was a long-winded way of asking if it was really fair to price an "inferior" (all geckos are beautiful, don't misunderstand my use of this word) animal based on what a perfect specimen costs?

I apologize if a system already exists, but I think it would be beneficial to the community to form a standard list of features that go into the pricing of a leopard gecko. For example, take the difficulty in achieving the morph, the purity of the bloodline, the visual appearance of the animal, the general health of the animal, etc.

Is this too complicated to pull off? Is it fair? It's definitely not a black and white issue, but in my opinion there are some breeders out there who are blatantly overcharging.

I wish I could have organized my thoughts into a more coherent point but hopefully you all understand what I'm getting at. If not, I'll try to rephrase it .
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Copyright © Dr. Zoltan Takacs.
All Rights Reserved.

On another note, part of the solution to this would *DEFINITELY* be for each and every breeder out there to put all the necessary time and effort into their website! I know it's time consuming, and possibly difficult, but it increases your credibility tenfold. It doesn't have to be a beautiful presentation, but including information about your breeders, where you bought them/their parents/grandparents/whatever. Some breeders have it right, some could use a *lot* of work.
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Copyright © Dr. Zoltan Takacs.
All Rights Reserved.

I think some people are just greedy for money and dont really know what they are doing. i think that is why they dont offer any info because they dont know what they are doing also.

I'm sure most of the breeders out there without info on their sites are very knowledgeable people who produce quality animals, but don't take the time to cover all bases.

Breeding and selling geckos, as much as we all love it for the artistic and animalistic aspects, IS a business. It may only be a business in so far as people want a self-sustaining hobby (which is the minority by far), but that's still a business.
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Copyright © Dr. Zoltan Takacs.
All Rights Reserved.

Now this is my reasonimg for my website. I don't list heritage of breeders for several reasons. #1 I don't want to advertize for them. #2 I think the animal should speak for itself. I have a low end Urban that cost me $300 and another that was $1200. So saying Urban doesn't necessarily excite me. I need to look at the gecko. The looks of the animal are after all basically what the majority of the cost boils down to. Which is why I list all my breeders for everyone to see. Also I want to establish myself instead of riding on others shoulders. Besides anyone can claim a heritage. Only one breeder I know of sends papers.
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

I didn't mean to sound condescending, I was fairly worked up when I wrote the whole post and unfortunately this forum lacks an edit feature for me to revise my thoughts.

At any rate, it's up to each individual breeder on how they run/present their business, I just think there are certain bits of information that would help a potential customer make an educated choice, as well as "push" them that extra step when they're hesitant about buying.

You're 100% justified in not wanting to advertise other breeders. Your payment and most likely your compliments of their stock were your nods to them. It's somewhat unrealistic to expect a 15 generation pedigree, but at least something like "X animal was sired by a male who was het for Y trait and a mother who was a beautiful Z morph" or something to that effect, and maybe comment on the coloration and future potential (for hatchlings)of the animal. Personally, the breeder who takes the time to analyze and describe each and every animal is a) enjoying the fruits of his/her labor, making it appear as though it's not all dollars and cents, and showing they genuinely appreciate the animals, and b)letting the customer know that he/she wants to inform them on as many details as possible on the animal they're about to invest in.

To me, all of these things add up! My mistake was the desire to apply my morals and standards to everyone else, I apologize for coming off that way.
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Copyright © Dr. Zoltan Takacs.
All Rights Reserved.

It would be wonderfull if breeders of all animals could come together and come up with an agreed upon price for the animals up for sale. Unfortunately you can look at dogs as a prime example....
Breeders themselves can be put down into 4 categories - Kennel breeders - who may be breeding akc/ckc/ukc champions but keep extensive kennels. These people have large breeding plans with extensive notes and make up the majority of top breeders in both the U.S. and Canada. Then you have your quality kitchen breeders who have similarly extensive plans and notes about their dogs but keep only a limited number of dogs and are very selective about their breedings. These breeders have in recent years become the norm - then do the same extensive health screenings that the large kennels do and keep extensive records, but their dogs are more "part of the family" socialized in homes. Next you have your "Backyard breeders" who dont do the proper health testing and often breed substandard dogs or dogs with genetic problems. These people will have some of the paperwork maybe... will have their dogs registered...maybe... and will occasionally get lucky with a certain characteristic that they are trying for, but not usually - these are also people who will often breed random mixes because they are popular and will sell for big cash - many of these sick dogs or mix breed dogs sell for exactly the same amount as their well bread healthy cousins wich gives the BYB's more reason to stay in business. The finaly type of "breeder" is the puppymiller. These animals are mass produced similar to the Large scale breeding kennel without the attention to genetics, health, or improving the breed. These are the ones who are in it for a quick buck and dont care the outcome of the breeding. These are the "breeders" who supply 90% of the petstore dogs. And these so called breeders charge upwards of $1000 for some of these dogs.

Okay basically what I'm saying is your perfect gecko is likely from one of th4e first 2 types of breeders - looking to improve the strain and produce the best possible - doing research and caring about what they are doing. The money is important but is almost secondary to the hobby itself. The animals that are of substandard quality are likely from the last 2 - in it basically for the money and only breeding this strain because they know it will make them more $. They are not foccused on improving the strain or perfecting their lines, their only foccus is on the all mighty dollar - so they charge the same as the quality breeder, but they are only out for a buck. Unfortunately there is no way to regulate any of this and no one who will inspect these animals and put some kind of quality control. If you are looking for a high quality animal, it takes a lot of research to stay away from the breeders who are just out for a buck.

as a side note, both my dogs are shelter mutts, and while I definately agree with supporting the good breeders out there, my animals will always be rescues (including my leopard gecko) I respect those of you with the drive to really get into the hobby, but for me as I do have a bit of a zoo, the foccus is on providing a good home for the remainder of the animals days, and I advise anyone looking for "just a pet" to do the same.

Ah, well put, and understood. I suppose there are too many factors involved to have a system of standardized pricing, but I'm getting very fed up with those who only care about the animals based on their ability to make the breeder money.

I do agree with you about keeping animals as pets. I only want to breed to provide my close friends with their own geckos after they expressed a desire to have some of their own. Kind of a way to keep friends together and keep in touch with whatever offspring my animals produce. At any rate, I suppose when buying a pet, we must all scrutinize to the last detail (if you want to go so far)every aspect of that creature. That seems like the best we can do.
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Copyright © Dr. Zoltan Takacs.
All Rights Reserved.

Another reason I don't go into detail on every gecko is I don't have the time. Most of the breeders that do are working with a group as a bussiness. They aren't doing everything themselves. If you were keeping 30 breeders and raising around 40 babies at a time( besides a full time job) do you think you would have the time to write a paragraph about each hatchling? Then afoord the extra money to pay your web guy to upload the descriptions. If the person is informed they already know what they are looking at. Besides if they have any questions all they have to do is ask me. Answers are always free. I would rather talk to someone and get a feel for what they are looking for and if I can't help them I could suggest someone that could. By the way most of the descriptions sound like car salesmen wrote them. They are usually people blowing up their product in order to influence you. I like my geckos to speak for themselves but I have no problem showing their parents which is why I have a breeder page. Unlike some people I show all of them not just my best examples. By the way, are you under the assumption that the best looking gecko has the best babies? I have a girl named Dot that although covered in her name makes amazing babies.One last thing and I'll quit ranting. Did you contact any of these money grubbing breeders and ask them why they operate the way they do?
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

Prices are what the consumer stes them at. If you look at recent new morph introductions you will notice the fall of prices from one year top the next. It seems as if the half every year in worth. This also depends on the number of breeders that buy into it. It is a supply and demnd game. You have to look at the need/desire for the breed along with the quality. If you have an amazing SHTCT you won't get much if everyone else does too. Personally most of us do this as a hobby. If you think we are making money hand over fist you are crazy. There are some that do but most don't. Also as far as establishing a set number throughout the community , GOOD LUCK. You will never get everyone or even most to agree on anything. I know because I have tried in another matter.
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

First, I apologize if I've hit some nerve with you, as it appears I have. Second, I already apologized for suggesting that my preferences be made into some kind of standard, that was wrong.

However, that's where my apologies stop. I stand by my opinions on web sites and details. You only have so much time and money to do something, it's understandable. I'm a full time student with a part time job, and while I don't have a family (which I know many breeders do have), for the brief period I was gung-ho on becoming a breeder, I took the time to learn a little bit of web code on my own, so that I wouldn't have to spend the money on a designer. I don't mean this as an insult, but it would seem that the older generation is less apt or maybe just less interested in learning computer related skills for whatever reason. I would say that spending money on on a web designer is their own choice.

I definitely understand where you're coming from if breeding is just a hobby, it isn't really realistic to think that anyone makes their living off breeding. And perhaps you're not making piles of cash. And yes the price is controlled by the consumer and competition. To me, that doesn't make it ok to take advantage of consumer ignorance. Informing them, and removing the ignorance, so they understand why a gecko would be $850.00, is something I would respect and commend. Yes, they could ask themselves, but your average consumer probably won't. This is definitely their fault, but they're not the ones losing out on a potential sale. If making sales and making money isn't a business's priority, kudos for holding out for concerned pet owners I suppose.

So a breeder doesn't have the time, the money, or the interest to keep a well organized, oft-updated website. They have another job, a family to handle, etc etc. So? I'm not looking for reasons why they don't have one, I just know it detracts from their business when they don't. It matters to some, doesn't matter to others. Matters to me though, and the breeder who puts the most sweat and blood into his hobby is the one I purchase from. I'm just one guy, there are plenty less scrutinizing perfectionists out there who will (and have) made businesses thrive for the span of time.

I hope my opinions don't anger you further, but we're both entitled to defend our positions.
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Copyright © Dr. Zoltan Takacs.
All Rights Reserved.

No need for apologies. Like you said you are just defending your opinions. I am also just defending my actions.

There is no way I will ever learn web design. Rob at The Hypo Gecko takes care of that for me. He does far better than i ever would at a Very reasonable price. If you weren"t in college still would you really go back to learn web design to make a gecko site? Especially when you can pay a designer to make one for less than the class would cost. Not to mention about three months faster.

Money isn't an issue for me. I was explaining possible reasons for things. I make enough at work that this is a hobby. So any money I do make goes right back into this. I buy new breeders, or even sponsor a forum like this one. That way beginers can learn from experienced owners.

Where is the need for this? What uninformed people are buying $850 geckos? The only people I know that are in that price range are Urban and maybe HISS. (Tremper also but I have never bought from him.)Both of them have excellent knowledge, animals, and service. I would seriously laugh at you if you think that Kelli is trying to rip you off because she doesn't have descriptions.

As for lossing sales it isn't a loss. I am not one of the money hungry breeders you are slandering. I don't need every person on line to buy from me. Most of my sales are at expos and in person. I make sure the person has a clue before I make any sale. I want to be sure my babies won't be neglected when they leave me.

Now for the effort. If you think that someone doesn't put the effort in because they don't share your idea of the perfect web site I think you are wrong. I put my effort into my geckos care. My proffits go to finding the best new breeders to improve my line.When I see a high tech web site I think that is where all there money goes, and that a fancy rapper doesn't mean a fancy product. Maybe I am Old School in that I believe in the product not the presentation.

If you don't like the way I do things that is to bad. I can say without a moment of regret that it will be your loss and not mine.
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

I may be in school, but I didn't take any classes relating to web design. I'm not an expert by any means, but it was an aspect of a business that I wanted to be able to cover myself.

As far as the $850 gecko, that was an example of something the average pet purchaser probably wouldn't understand. Either way I definitely doubt they would buy it. Perhaps I shouldn't have assumed it would be understood as an example, albeit an extreme one, I'll be more specific next time.

What do I lose by not purchasing, exactly?
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Copyright © Dr. Zoltan Takacs.
All Rights Reserved.

Wait a minute, you are in school and didn't take a web class? You learned enough to cover it yourself? This doesn't sound like the all out effort you were claiming before. Where is the passion and perfection you were claiming before?

If I do what you suggest what's next? How about three camera angles of each gecko? Oh wait, we can do a progressive development shoot to show their color development in flash!!! Personaly I have papers on Pedegree for the geckos they were available on, receipts for alll the rest.When it all boils down it comes to the animal and the breeder reputation. Anyone can say they have geckos from somebody. They could also be the next generation from purchased breeders. Does that make them worth less? It should just be about the animals. For someone who is concerned about prices why are pedigrees so important to you?

As for your example it was a bad one. Try to use a better one that is a little realistic next time instead of making things up. You should have used the animal that got you worked up in the first place. That would have been a good example. By the way what are you talking about? You seem to feel the need to blast people when you have not acomplished any of these things yourself. Try looking around and learning somethings before you preach about whats wrong with the hobby. Especially when you have no real examples to back up anything you have said.

As far as what you lose I would say nothing. I hope that you are looking for a SHT this year and go somewhere else, please. I don't want to sell you anything. Best of luck finding your perfect gecko at a fair price from an over developed web site.
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

First of all, I'm not taking blasts at anyone.

Second, I'm *not* breeding, or selling anything. I said that during the brief period that I was considering breeding, I began learning basic web skills, in anticipation of creating a website.

A fairly common defensive mechanism seems to be "well you can't do any better, so don't talk!"

Why would I need to do any better? I'm not trying to. It's my job as a consumer to offer constructive criticism and insight into what would make me, an individual consumer, more apt to spend money on a particular product, in a particular business.

Throughout this conversation, it seemed that you took things rather personally, as if I was attacking you directly. While I had previously seen your website before our conversation, I never had any problems with it. Upon closer inspection, I still have no problems with it other than it wasn't updated even after you advertised in someone else's forum post. However, that's not relevant to this conversation.

I think you may be getting a bit carried away with where I was trying to go with this. I'm not saying anyone should break their back taking pictures from different angles, and writing a full thesis essay on each hatchling they produce. One picture, and a few lines of text, and some pertinent genetic information would be more than sufficient.

Although I believe you're a busy person, if you have the time, I can provide links to every leopard gecko breeder's site and list some constructive criticisms and things that I'd change.

I'm not sure if you've read all the posts in this discussion, but I already recanted on my call for standardized pricing. That shouldn't even be a part of the discussion any more, but unfortunately I can't go back and edit my post. It was made too quickly, out of anger, before thinking it through.

Honestly, your reactions in the last couple of posts were fairly petty toward the end. All I've been offering is my opinion on what would make breeders' sites a bit better, as well as opinions on breeders themselves. These points seem to have struck a sore nerve with you, though. Moreover it seems you took many of my criticisms personally, as if they were targeting you specifically. This is unfortunate.
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Copyright © Dr. Zoltan Takacs.
All Rights Reserved.

There is nothing personal in this. I am enjoying this little debate we are having. I may get a little passionate at time but this is my hobby. Of course I have passion in it. When someone who hasn't passed step #1 is telling me how to operate after five years I am going to get a little passionate.

I never said don't talk. It is your right to have an opinion just as it is mine to disagree with yours. I said I find it interesting that you know how it should be done having never done it yourself.

I agree with your criticism remark. I just don't agree with you calling people who I probably know money hungry and deceiving. Especially when you have offered up no REAL examples of the things that you are claiming. I know of some people that have higher than average prices but there is no standard. They can charge whatever they want. If you look at the cost of feeders and compare the per gecko cost of say three( father, mother, and offspring) and compare that to someone who is buying bulk for 100 geckos. The smaller hobbiest will have to charge more to brake even. I don't totally disagree with you in this but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

If you are refering about my site update I already did. I changes a couple of sutle things. Retired one male and three females. Also I added four new females. My site isn't even 6 months old yet. What did you want?

Do me a favor and go to TUG's web site. I love there animals and have many in my collection. Read his descriptions, not just some but all of them. Do you really think that people need to say the gecko is an illuminating tangerine to let the consumer know it is a orange gecko? Like I said before all they have to do is ask and I will do my best to answer any question they may have. Even if it means send them to someone else.

Hey if you have some criticism for me have at it. I will always take that. You can probably just name the site and I should have the adress already. I think I have forty or so now adays.

No apologies necessary. Like I said before we are arguing. I have rather enjoyed this. It is a lot more fun then reading everyone congrats to each others new offspring.

This is a hard one to debate. I just reread some of my posts. Where I tried to be reasonable I may have overstepped that. It just bothered me that you were making accusations with no evidence. I was more than unnecessary in a couple of those comments . Just don't forget all the broad generalizations you were throwing out there. I would say we were both a little rash in some of the things said.
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com