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Motley x Hypo Litter Outcome (VERY LONG)

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 12:01 AM

This year, we bred our Hypo female to our male Motley Boa. This is one of this sesaon's breedings that we have been anticipating most. This is the same female that gave us our awesome litter of Hypo Jungles last year and those babies came out looking SO great that we were hoping to have the same kind of results with the Motley!

We first ultrasounded the female Hypo on October 19, 2005. She had 17mm follicles so we threw our male Motley in with her ASAP. On October 21, 2005, we witnessed a copulation. On November 2, 2005, we ultrasounded again and she was now at 23mm. The male stayed with her and we witnessed courting activity on November 16th and another copulation the very next day. We ultrasounded her again later on that day and she was at 26mm. One more ultrasound session on November 30th revealed follicular size at 32mm.

On December 9, 2005, she ovulated and had her POS December 27, 2005. We ultrasounded her again later on that day and were able to confirm that she was indeed gravid from the ultrasound results.

So then we started counting and waiting. I had her 105th day POS marked down as April 11, 2006. As the months went by, she swelled quite a bit and we had our hopes up and fingers crossed for a nice litter of Hypo Motleys.

The season got off to a very rocky start. Our female Albino Arabesque that was bred by our male Motley unexpectedly and suddenly died at the beginning of February. We're not quite sure what happened with her although we think it had something to do with complications during the pregnancy. Her follicles were odd appearing on the ultrasound. They looked the way follicles did after they were already fertilized but, they only appeared to be half the size of a normal fertilized follicle/egg. I looked in on her one evening and she had her back end rotated to the side like we often see gravid females sitting to relieve pressure on certain areas of their body or to adjust the babies inside. The next day when I checked on her, she was dead.

So we were very upset at not only the loss of the babies, but the loss of the female.

Our first female for the season was due on March 29, 2006. She had been bred by the Jungle and was a first time mom for us. We aquired her from someone locally who could not keep her but didn't have any history on the animal so I don't know how old she is or if she has ever produced babies before.

On her 100th day POS, she gave birth to a litter of slugs - 28 slugs all together. We were very surprised by this because she went almost completely full term with a litter of slugs. We would have expected her to give birth much earlier since they were all slugs. Another big let down. But this time, I said, "Hey - at least the female is okay and we can always try again with her next year!"

On to litter #2 - this litter was from a breeding between our male Sharp Albino het. Anery to a normal female. We were looking forward to some 100% Het. Sharp possible het. Anery babies.

On the 101st day POS, she gave birth prematurely or accidentally - 1 slug and 7 stillborns with some of the babies not fully formed. We think this might have been an accidental premature birth because she also released her waxy stool at the same time. We think she was possibly just trying to pass the waxy stool and wasn't able to hold the babies in.

On her 106th day POS, she gave birth to the rest of the litter - 18 slugs, and 10 babies. Of the 10 babies, only three made it and the others were stillborn. Of the three that survived, one has a slight kink, one has a very miniscule underbite, and the third is perfect. All three are female and will be staying here with us!

Whew - that was rough!

Now back to this litter. So as you can see, the season was pretty rocky to start out with and we were REALLY hoping to turn things around with this litter!

Today, the 107th day POS, our Hypo female gave birth! The final count for the litter...

Hypo x Motley litter results =

8 Hypo Jungle

7 definite Jungles

2 Normals

3 kinked/deformed still born Hypo Jungles

3 kinked/deformed Jungles

14 slugs

No, the above is NOT a typo! Apparently, the female Hypo retained sperm from her last breeding with our male Jungle back in approximately January of 2005! Even though we witnessed copulation between her and our male Motley on two separate ocassions, she used the retained sperm from the Jungle male for whatever reason.

I have heard of this happening in the past with several other breeders. However, it just blows my mind! It certainly would account for the high slug count in the litter though!

We were fortunate enough to be able to see the entire birthing process. As the babies were being born, I remember thinking, "Wow, she's got an awful lot of slugs this year." And then I remember thinking, "Hmmm...I don't see any Motleys...??"

At first, we thought a couple of the Hypo Jungles were possibly Hypo Motleys because we weren't exactly sure what the Hypo gene would do to the Motley pattern. I know some of the Hypo Motleys that were produced in the past have some pretty wacky patterns and weren't really your traditional perfect, hurricane circle Motleys. But as more babies were born, it took us a few minutes to realize what had happened here.

Our first reaction was an incredible disappointment at not producing any Hypo Motleys. However! this litter is really quite amazing for a couple of different reasons...

1.) The Hypo female used retained sperm from a year ago to fertilize this litter which resulted in 17 healthy babies.

2.) Upon first (pre-shed) examination, it appears as if ALL of the Hypos are Hypo Jungles. We'll be able to further evaluate and re-evaluate them after they shed and put on some size/age.

3.) The coloration on these babies is insane. The Hypo Jungle babies GLOW orange and pink. I do not remember the babies we produced last year looking like this immediately post birth. Even the regular Jungle babies are very different looking with TONS of color. It looks like all the regular Jungles have lots of red/pink coloration "bleeding" through the gray/ivory background color.

4.) There are quite a few babies with really WACKY patterns - especially the normals/regular Jungles. There are a couple of Jungles with extremely high saddle counts - one baby in particular with 32 saddles (including tail saddles) alltogether! Almost every single one has crazy head patterns too. One baby in particular has an extremely dark and distinct cross on its head with two squiggly lines coming up either side. Our friend Vincent and his son were here while the babies were being born and they nicknamed that baby "Devil head" LOL. One of the Hypo Jungle's has spots all over its head (that one has been dubbed "Leopard Head".

5.) And here's a strange kicker to top it all off - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE BABIES ARE FEMALES! What?!? That's right! I sexed them each three times. I even sexed all the still born and deformed ones that I could (I couldn't sex three of them because their tails were kinked too badly). So we're talking about 17 babies and 3 still borns.

What are the chances of getting a litter of ALL females??? About as good as the chances of the litter being sired by retained sperm from a year ago you might say!!

HAHA!!

This has been, by far, the MOST interesting breeding experience we have had with Boas. It just goes to show you that you can never know what to expect with these gorgeous, amazing creatures!!

And now for the photos.............................................................................................

A few birthing photos where I'm saying - "Where are the Motleys?"

More photos in the next thread (I'm breaking the photos up for people on dial-up because their are SO many of them!).

To be continued.........................................................................................................

-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Replies (83)

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 12:05 AM

"OH - they're Hypo Jungles and Jungles - well that makes sense! Well not really but I'll take them anyways - especially if they look like THIS!"

I love the "crispness" of the pattern on this one...not to mention the intensity of color!

Can you see the lighter coloration on the nose?

MAN look at those TAILS!!!!

More photos to be continued.....................................................................................
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

SuppleReptiles Apr 14, 2006 12:09 AM

Even though I am not a morph guy, I have always like what that jungle gene does... What an amazing litter, congrats!

JOEP123 Apr 14, 2006 12:13 AM

LIke always your pictures are fantastic and your animals are even better.
Thanks 4 posting,
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Joel Pretz

locolizard Apr 14, 2006 01:25 AM

Those salmons are almost devoid of any black aroudn their tails! almost like supers! That is one crazy litter! What the heck are they?

lol crazy!

jasongonzo Apr 14, 2006 01:41 AM

Nice photos and congratulations to you and Sean on an outstanding litter!

Jason Gonzalez

LauraV Apr 14, 2006 02:59 AM

...insane litter!

The retained sperm is scary though...If the fathers had been similar, such as a DH Sunglow, or Sunglow, or Hypo het for anything else, one would never know who actually sired the litter...It sure sets one to thinking...you just have to wonder how many babies have been sold as het for one thing, when actually they are retained sperm from another male...it's mind boggling.
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Delusions of Grandeur feed the EGO...

salmonboa.com Apr 14, 2006 09:53 AM

What an incredible story and success! Congratulations! Some of those Salmons are almost clear! They are all beautiful!

Congrats again to you both!

Salmonboa.com

ajfreptiles Apr 14, 2006 11:14 AM

Super Congrats on such an awesome litter!!!! Andy Federico
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dbrasher Apr 14, 2006 12:21 PM

Very nice Celia !!I like the spotted noses , I have a few from last season like that . The side colors on those guys are wicked .I have a similar scenario going on as I write this .I have a hypo female bred by a jungle that ovulated 10 months after he was out of the cage . I had her x-rayed and it showed 8 live babies .(pic attached) Ultrasound showed 8 heartbeats . Both of those events shows Long term and viable sperm retention . Great Job on those babies simply beautiful!

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www.BrasherReptiles.com

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 01:25 PM

>>Very nice Celia !!I like the spotted noses , I have a few from last season like that . The side colors on those guys are wicked .I have a similar scenario going on as I write this .I have a hypo female bred by a jungle that ovulated 10 months after he was out of the cage . I had her x-rayed and it showed 8 live babies .(pic attached) Ultrasound showed 8 heartbeats . Both of those events shows Long term and viable sperm retention . Great Job on those babies simply beautiful!
>>
>>
>>-----
>>www.BrasherReptiles.com
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 01:30 PM

ARGH - hit that enter key again by accident!

Anyways, I just wanted to say thank you for posting this information! This retained sperm issue is VERY interesting although it may or may not be what's going on here. I have heard of a snake retaining sperm for up to 5 years, never introduced to a male during that time, produced a clutch of eggs, and all the eggs hatched with viable babies.

Anyways, VERY interesting and best of luck with your girl! Thanks for sharing the x-ray and info!

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

ChrisGilbert Apr 14, 2006 02:25 PM

HAD to have happened. They have the EXTREME coloration, and TOTAL lack of Black you would expect in the BEST SUPER HYPO Jungles.

boaphile Apr 14, 2006 02:58 PM

You know what? What are they? Who's your daddy? If they were born at my place they would all be staying with me that is for sure! Congrats especially on the mind blowing Albino-ish looking Hypos!

Some of the "normals" or non-Hypos look just like most of the normal "Monster Tails" I have produced. Thick saddles and lots of them. But those orange "Creamsicle" looking babies are out of this world! (If you like that name you better snag it quick!) The post shed pics are going to make me suicidal!

I had a litter of Boas about 12 years ago now I guess that was half babies and half slugs. All the babies were females too. No matter how many times I sexed them I could not get any of them to pop male. How many you ask? 17 of course. Coincidence?

Are Jungle's prone to producing wide saddled or many saddled babies?

This makes me really nervous about a Monster Tail Hypo I have due in about six weeks. She only had a Jungle in with her since giving me slugs two years ago... very nervous indeed.

I am, ORANGE with envy...

ExquisiteExotics Apr 15, 2006 01:20 AM

Im highly interested in one of those females. Please email me at exexotics@yahoo.com please!

Thanks for your time
Chris Altizer
Exquisite Exotics

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 12:13 AM

And here are the normals and regular Jungles...

Jungle vs. normal boa body comparison shot...

Extremely high saddle counts on these guys!

This one is one of my favorites!

A pretty crazy patterned Jungle!

Weird head pattern...

DEVIL HEAD!

A REALLY red regular Jungle!

The same one as above but thrown in with the group of Hypo Jungles...

A closeup saddle color comparsion between two regular Jungles
http://exoticsbynature.com/ksf/4-13-06litter26.jpg

And that's it everyone! All thoughts and comments are welcome...

Thanks for reading and looking!

Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 12:17 AM
ajfreptiles Apr 14, 2006 11:22 AM

I sent you an e-mail....I know it may sound crazy Celia...but I see Motleys in your litter!!! Those Hypos are Motleys!!! Andy Federico
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locolizard Apr 14, 2006 11:36 AM

That is what i am saying! Good Eye Andy!

ajfreptiles Apr 14, 2006 11:40 AM

That is what I see!!! Andy Federico
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Randall_Turner Apr 14, 2006 03:06 PM

I would agree on some of these if it was a Central American Motley x hypo. As the CA motleys on their own are extremely variable (some even looking normal with just a head pattern difference) I can see 1 that looks motley from what little amount of pattern that is showing. Of course I'm far from an expert on motleys.
-----
Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

Shane Kinney Apr 14, 2006 12:50 AM

Gotta love breeding boas...you never really know, do you?

locolizard Apr 14, 2006 01:13 AM

and ill tell you why, look at the head pattern on those boas with the weird patterns and in one of your pics of the salmon, it has a very laddertail motley look to it, i bet those are motleys, i definately dont think they are jungles. just my honest opinion, i am extremely interested to see what is going on with that litter though, it is different for sure!

Congrats!

locolizard Apr 14, 2006 01:21 AM


I would love to see more pics of the salmon with this laddertial look.

I am wondering if there was something in the salmon that muted the Motley gene.

Very interesting, amazing litter.

Congrats again!

Jeremy Stone Apr 14, 2006 01:26 AM

Mark, No offense, but those aren't Motleys. I have produced quite a few of hypo Motleys and Motleys, and I know the Hypos makes it a little whacky, but Hypos Motleys are Always darker, and really don't resemble those at all.

You have still got to be on cloud nine from your awesome litter.

Jeremy

locolizard Apr 14, 2006 01:33 AM

I just thought the head pattern looked like a motley, ive never seen a normal other than a C.A. to have that type of head pattern from a salmon litter.

I also think it could be possible that something in this particular salmon didn mix with the motley gene and it made the patterns even weirder. I dont know, i have no experience with motley litters and definately take your word for it, but it does make you wonder when you see that head pattern, at least it did me, Just My opinion.

And yeah, cloud nice still lol!

Thanks Jeremy!

Mark

JL_Reptiles Apr 14, 2006 01:46 AM

but there's no way in the world the animal in the first picture is a Motley. Where's the saddle connection? Lateral striping? The animal has many different shades of COLOR! I think a belly shot will prove it's a Notley.. As for that laddertail on the Hypomelanistic boa, I'm not so sure, if it's only a hypo, it'll be the FIRST hypo I've seen with a perfect laddertail.. Awesome litter you've got there Ceilia, Congrats on those things, whatever they are and put me down for a male if possible!! Take care, Joe

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 02:01 AM

with both you and Jeremy. I WISH that little one was a Motley. If someone wants to give me $6,500 for it as a Motley, then they are welcome to her...maybe LOL!

As for putting you down for a male Joe - unfortunately, you are out of luck. The ENTIRE litter (stillborns and all) is female! Another oddity of this breeding!

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

vcaruso15 Apr 14, 2006 07:06 AM

you expected. I remember reading in Ronne's article in Reptiles on boa breeding he spoke of litters with a high slug count often being very female heavy. I think he believed that this was due to male embryos being weaker than females. He said that he thought the slugs from those litters may have been fertilized but died very early in the term. Anyway congrats again on an Awesome but weird litter.

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 01:33 PM

I'm glad you shared this info because that is another very interesting theory that I definitely want to look into. I will have to dig up that issue and maybe drop Jeff an email. This is very exciting because there are so many things that we never even considered till just now...

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

BNixon Apr 14, 2006 03:13 AM

I would have to agree, if you look at Steve Brocks litter from a few weeks ago some of the HOTLEYS he produced looked very similar to those beauties, and I know he didnt put his Jungle in with his Hypo Harly female.

Gabor Apr 14, 2006 12:23 PM

Celia

First off all BIG congratz on this amazing litter.

I see 2 options:

1. This is a jungle littler. The female kept all the sperm for almoust 12 months BUT only the Y sperm survived. It is knowed with the mammals that X sperm moves slover but they do live longer. ( XX- female mammal, XY female boa - i think that how it work with boids). SO that is the reason why you got only females in the litter. The second thing that happened while she kep the sperm was the fact that the gens muted into super form. Sometimes by breeding co-dom or dom form with a normal you can get super form. It happened with Super motley, super tiger retic etc. So, I think some of the hypo you got in the litter are super hypo. The fact they are super changed the look of the regular jungle. They are more abberant and colorfull this way but we cant be sure if they are jungle or not. Probably most of the jungles in the litter are super hypo. Maybe one or two of the normals are jungles but we cant be sure of that. Possible jungles just like Peter Kahl sell them...Anyway, I see jungle by looking on the head of the babys. At the end i think you got many super hypo jungles, super hypo, jungles and normals. I cant see any normal hypos in the litter but you got a few slugs so who knows what was there...

2. This is a motley litter. The same thing could happened and the super hypo form popped out. It changed the motley SOOOO much that we cant see the regular pattern. All the motleys are in the super hypo form and the rest of them (normal motleys) stayed in slugs. Maybe there was a few males too but they are slugs either. The lighter babys are normals with hypo influance or very strange hypo form.

Anyway, These are my thoughts. Sorry for my english... And, I would love to take one of those hypos home.

Take care

Gabor
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Gabor Kaminski

Gabor Apr 14, 2006 04:20 PM

By saying that the genes muted i ment that in the time of fertilization the strange gene pool that came with the Y sperm made the oocyt gens muted and because of that the heterozygous animals became homozygous - the super form. In other words the Y sperm was from jungle and they stayed normal but they made the hypo genes muted to a super form - super hypo. At the end we ended up with super hypo jungle that look like super hypo because of thet strong reduction of pattern. "Nice" jungle genes with the super hypo form made these EXTREME looking boas.
I hope now its more clear.
These are just my thoughts

Gabor
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Gabor Kaminski

Red_Hydra Apr 14, 2006 12:19 AM

Congratulations Celia and Sean, an amazing litter.
So many I mean so many keepers in that litter, I got to get me some of those amazing boas.

And again amazing photography, not that the camera could do these jems any justice. I was about to log off and saw your post now I am as excited for you as you must be right now.

boarepublic Apr 14, 2006 12:30 AM

That's is AMAZING.
This really gets me thinking too. I've got 2 Recessive Boa genes I'm working with...T and T-.
I haven’t done enough breeding of the T yet to really worry about this, but I can see that if I use different recessive males on the same female as you did, it is in fact possible that het babies could be het for something I'm not expecting! This breeding of yours has taught me a valuable lesson. I really appreciate you sharing the history on this litter!

The color on the Hypo jungles are just unreal. I can imagine how you feel every time you look in the box full of those beauties.

A huge congratulations on a such a great litter!

ChrisGilbert Apr 15, 2006 12:42 AM

That is exactly what I was thinking earlier.

Say I breed a Leopard to my female Hypo one year, and a Blood the next. Babies from the Blood male to the Hypo female could actually be the result of retained sperm from the Leopard male to the SAME hypo female. It would suck to raise up a pair of DH for three years and discover they are DH for a Different combination.

Jeremy Stone Apr 14, 2006 01:24 AM

Celia,

First off, MAJOR CONGRATULATIONS to a very very cool unexpected litter. I know that you were expecting Motleys, and I was scratching my brain at how this could come out. In over 140 plus good litters, I have NEVER had a Sperm Retention from the Previous year. I have had a few females give birth to babies from multiple fathers in the same year though.

With loooking at that Mom, and seing those Babies, I have NEVER seen F1's look that good. Especailly from seing your hypos from last years litter. They were awesome, but, they didn't look close to as nice as these babies. I again scratched my brain.

Then, I remembered your Post about you Priming your females with different males a few weeks ago. I personally wouldn't do this, but if it works, and works well, then you can never argue with results, but whenever I use 2 different males, it always baffles me that the one that breeds the least usually is the Father. (Not ALWAYS, but more often then not).

I really hope you don't take me wrong becuase you know I love you guys, and this is in NO WAY negative. However, after looking at those pictures of the Babies, they really look like they are the result of a HYPO to HYPO. Those babies are too nice to be f1's, and they have NO black after the tail. They look like SUPER SALMONS. Also, I have noticed in some of my Hypo to Hypo Breedings, that some of the normals look a little Jungle like with nice big saddles and great color. So, in my opinion, I would say you maybe "Primed" your female with a Salmon male, DH Sunglow, or sunglow or whatever. Maybe you were cleaning cages and threw a hypo in there for a Day? I know the Maybes could go a MILE LONG.

After reading your post of putting in "lesser Important" males to get the follicles bigger for "Important Males" then that makes a lot of sense. I am in NO WAY saying that this could be a "lesser" important Male, because your babies are absolutley STUNNING, and I would LOVE to have a litter like that. I know they aren't Hypo Motleys, and that is what you were hoping for, but to say you are dissapointed with those would be an OUTCRY. Yes, they aren't Motleys, but that litter is AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, I could be TOTALLY wrong, as animals change when they shed, and I could be seing them wrong, but your Photos are TOP OF THE LINE!!!!!! I was going to call you and give you my opinon, but I realized it is WAY late, and I already jumped out of bed to go check on my litter due today. LOL

Again, I could be WAY wrong, and it is late. But, the major thing that leads me to believe this is a SUPER SALMON litter is the color and patter of the Non Hypos, and the color of the Hypos. If you look at last years litter, you would know that it couldn't be the same father. They look totally different, and I don't know anyone who has had a litter from the same father in a next year that was viable.

Here is another reason why I think they MAY be super Salmons. Two years ago, I bred a Salmon to a Sunglow, and I backed her up with the Jungle. The Sunglow bred only 3 days, and the Jungle two months. My litter came out VERY Similar to yours, however, my babies weren't even close to as nice. I was very perplexed at what they were, and I thought they were Jungles, and Salmon jungles because Super Salmons or Poss Dom Salmons. have whacky patterns that look like Jungles too. After a few sheds, I came to the conclusion it was the Sunglow, and I had potential dominant DH sunglows. They didn't look as good as yours, but my Mother Hypo wasn't in the caliber of your Hypo either. So, that is just one other reason I think this may have happened.

This is ONLY MY opinion. Again, it may be late, and my mind is toast. However, I want to say a MAJOR CONGRATS to you and Sean. You desearve this awesome litter, and no matter WHO or WHAT they are, I would Kill to have EVERY ONE of those Babies over here. LOL.........

Thanks soooo much for sharing your posts, and Ideas. This is a great learning experience from us all. I would be interested to hear others opinions, and also yours Celia.

Take Care, Jeremy

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 01:52 AM

HOWEVER I can say that this particular female, has NEVER been with any Hypo gene carrying male since reaching sexual maturity. I can say this without a shadow of a doubt.

When she was young (and I mean between 5 to 8 months old) I did have her housed with a baby male Hypo Boa (a half sibling). This was when I was in college and didn't have racks or as much cage space as I would have liked. The two were housed together for just a few months and then separated when I had the space. Neither animals were sexually mature yet at the time.

When she was 18 months old, I had considered breeding her with a male Hypo because that's all we had at the time. However, she was SO young and only about 4 1/2 feet long that we didn't even bother. Plus, we had so many other big normal females to work with at the time, we didn't want to "waste" the male's time on such a young female (we did not have an ultrasound machine at the time).

Last year, the ONLY male the female Hypo was in with was our male Jungle. We wanted to make Hypo Jungles and the male was a VERY enthusiastic breeder with her so there was no need to back him up with anything else.

This year, the ONLY male the female Hypo was in with was our male Motley. This time, we had our hearts set on Hypo Motleys. We witnessed various courting sessions and two definite copulations followed shortly by an ovulation and a POS. So we did not feel the need to back up the male Motley with anything else.

We did not "prime" this girl with any other male either because she was our #1 breeder female for the season (this applies to last season too). We had our eyes on her as our VIP girl so she had top choice male. Also, she had good sized follicles to begin with at 17mm back in October this season (she also had big follicles to start with last season and produced our first litter last year as well). We will only use "lesser" males to help "prime" females with SMALL follicles.

We ocassionally throw in enthusiastic breeder males with females with small follicles in order to try and get the male to court/copulate with the female and hopefully stimulate her follicular development. When I refer to small follicles, I mean follicles in the 8 to 10mm size range. At 17mm so early in the season (for us at least!) this girl was also one of our earliest developers so there really was no need for any other males.

So, with that being said, I can tell you that we definitely did not have any other male in with her, even for cleaning or temporary housing or any other reason. This girl has only been with two mature males her entire adult life - the male Jungle last year and the male Motley this year.

This whole litter still has us scratching our heads. I pulled up the thread I posted from last year's Hypo Jungle litter and I agree that the Hypo Jungles from last season look NOTHING like the ones from this litter. Sean and I were talking about this earlier tonight so I'm glad you brought it up.

I would like to hear others' opinions about this litter and what may be going on with these babies. I don't understand why there is such an intense reduction of black on the Hypo Jungle babies. I told Sean - "Well if she used retained sperm, maybe it's like wine or cheese - it gets better with age!" LOL - kidding of course!

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Randall_Turner Apr 14, 2006 02:00 AM

When she was 18 months old, I had considered breeding her with a male Hypo because that's all we had at the time. However, she was SO young and only about 4 1/2 feet long that we didn't even bother. Plus, we had so many other big normal females to work with at the time, we didn't want to "waste" the male's time on such a young female (we did not have an ultrasound machine at the time).

Considered using a female at 18 months of age? I know it is witnessed in the hobby on occasion (like the Kahl first albino litters) but wouldn't that be a little bit on the edge for breeding? I don't know maybe I look at the hobby a bit differently.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 02:07 AM

fleeting moment because she had been growing so fast. I never "power fed" her during her entire life. I offered her frozen/thawed food items about once a week like I did all my other boas at the time. However, she just seemed to take every thing I fed her and used it towards growing. She was REALLY thick at 18 months old too.

However, we decided against it because we didn't think she was sexually mature and I didn't want anything to happen to her because she is the first boa I ever owned. We also had our hearts set on trying for Hypo Jungles the next year so we didn't want to jeopardize that chance either.

Like I said, it was a fleeting though and we didn't even bother with attempting it due to a few various factors. I have heard of other breeders successfully breeding and producing babies from 18 month old females.

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
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DaveyFig Apr 14, 2006 02:02 AM

...but are you saying that if you had an ultrasound machine, you would have bred an 18 month old female at 4 1/2 ft?
Personally, I wouldn't breed an 18 month old female boa PERIOD, and I would be very very unlikely to attempt to breed a 4 1/2 ft female before she was 5 years old.(gotta allow an extra couple years to see if she is gonna grow those NEEDED 2 ft.
I guess thats why I will just continue to be a hobbyist, and never make those gaint leaps into recognition.
I am still shaking my head.
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Davey Giltner

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 02:11 AM

>>...but are you saying that if you had an ultrasound machine, you would have bred an 18 month old female at 4 1/2 ft?
>>Personally, I wouldn't breed an 18 month old female boa PERIOD, and I would be very very unlikely to attempt to breed a 4 1/2 ft female before she was 5 years old.(gotta allow an extra couple years to see if she is gonna grow those NEEDED 2 ft.
>>I guess thats why I will just continue to be a hobbyist, and never make those gaint leaps into recognition.
>>I am still shaking my head.
>>-----
>>Davey Giltner
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
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DaveyFig Apr 14, 2006 02:15 AM

Great litter though.Sorry I didn't say that earlier just got wrapped up in the moment. I am just glad we didn't see her drop that at 4 1/2 ft. WOuld hate to see the 2 pound colombian that was left after a full term pregnancy.
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Davey Giltner

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 02:21 AM

by accident. Anyways, like I mentioned above - we considered it for a fleeting moment but ultimately did NOT even ATTEMPT the breeding because we didn't want to jeopardize her health.

I was basically just going through the entire history we've had with this girl and the point I was trying to make was that she has NEVER been with a Hypo gene carrying male. And we had only POSSIBLY CONSIDERED putting her in with a Hypo gene carrying male once before.

On a side note, we have a female that is a rescue animal we got who is only about 4 feet long. We did not even consider her for breeding but when we ultrasounded her, she had 27 to 30mm follicles. She appears to be pure Colombian and I'm positive she is over 18 months old due to her head size. Since she's a rescue, we don't have any history on her and I'm not sure if she'll produce anything but we did put a male in with her...

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 03:07 AM

I had mentioned that we did not have an ultrasound machine at the time. That statement was in reference to us not knowing at the time what we do now about follicular development in relation to age.

A couple of years ago, I was under the impression that size was more important than age. However, I quickly learned the opposite after we started breeding our boas. Also, with the use of our ultrasound machine, I am able to see just how important age is in follicular development and size. I have seen plenty of 3 to 4 year old females in the 6 to 7 feet long range that you would think are in their prime for breeding have tiny follicles that don't develop at all because the animals just aren't quite sexually mature yet.

Anyways, I just wanted to elaborate on that statement.

Thanks,
Celia

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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 02:29 AM

I posted last year when the Hypo Jungles were born. Here is the link to it with photos of the babies. If you compare the photos of last year's babies to this year's, they do look very different...

2005 Hypo Jungle Litter

And More Photos
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
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T.Exeter Apr 14, 2006 01:27 AM

Congratulations on that great litter.
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www.repteq.com

BASICALLYBOAS Apr 14, 2006 01:38 AM

....I want to say killer litter you guys! Those babies are AMAZING looking! I have to say though in my opinion those are not Jungles. After reading your previous post about using multiple males this is the kind of stuff that can happen. I am assuming you guys may have tried to stimulate follicle growth in your female by using a Salmon male prior to introducing your Motley? I know I have been guilty of that in the past, but stopped doing it as I always seemed to be unhappy with the outcome. As far as the normals in that litter, WOW! They are also AMAZING, but very similar to what I have seen in the past from Salmon X Salmon breedings. The normals always seem to get some of the Salmon influence in them.
I hope you two do not take this post the wrong way, I just do not think that is a litter fathered by a Jungle.
Congrats again as I would love to have a killer litter Salmons just like that!
Regards,

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BASICALLYBOAS.com
'Specializing in only the Highest Quality True RedTails & Designer Boa Morphs'

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 01:56 AM

I just posted a reply to Jeremy's thread which basically addresses the same issues you bring up.

This particular female has NEVER been with a Hypo gene carrying male her ENTIRE adult life. When I say this, I can say it with absoulte 100% certainty because only Sean or I handle the boas.

As of around 8 months of age, this girl has been housed individually in one of our Boa racks. In fact, she has occupied the same tub for the past 3 or so years. I know this for a fact because she is in the top tub of the rack and I HATE it! I am short so I always have to grab a step ladder to look at her LOL!

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

BNixon Apr 14, 2006 03:11 AM

That litter looks stunning to say the least! I do have a question though, what are your thoughts on say if you bred a something carrying a non recessive gene carrier say a hypo to a hypo female then say the next season you bred a Sunglow male to that same hypo female do you think there might be a possibilty of those animals not being DH sunglow? Just got me thinking about it...again congrats on the litter well deserved from the previous bad luck you had recieved on the past litters

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 11:19 PM

possibility of something like that happening. I would say at this point, that anything is possible which is kind of scary.

Sean had a conversation with Brian at BHB Enterprises a while ago about this very topic. Brian said that if he breeds a normal female to a homozygous recessive morph (like an Albino or a Piebald) one year and does not repeat the exact same breeding the next year, he will not use a different homozygous recessive morph but will use a dominant or co-dominant morph instead.

That way, the babies from the following year can be marketed as either the dominant/co-dominant morph or normals. HOWEVER, the normals can potentially not be just normals.

For example, let's say he breeds an Albino to a normal and produces a clutch of 100% Hets. Next year, he wants to use the female on a different project. However, he won't use her in another simple recessive project. So, instead, he would breed her to a Spider to produce Spiders and "normal" appearing babies.

Now you can be absolutely sure that the Spider babies were sired by the Spider. He would sell off the normal appearing babies as just normals. Now those could potentially not be just normals but het. Albinos IF retained sperm was used to fertilize them.

However, in this instance, the customer would not be getting less than what they paid for which would be our main concern. Sure, it would be a shame to sell a het. animal as a normal but I find it to be much worse to accidentally sell a normal as a het. animal.

It would all come back to what sort of guarantees on genetics you are willing to offer your potential customers.

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

BNixon Apr 14, 2006 11:35 PM

Celia, thanks for the response. That does seem like a good solid plan to ensure that the customer would be getting what they thought, almost makes you wonder if that has happened to people before like people selling hets or what not and them not actually being hets unintentionally simply because of the retained sperm was the one that fertilized the egg. Its certainly something to consider when making your pairings, also using a co-dom/recessive split if using multiple males.

ChrisGilbert Apr 15, 2006 01:31 AM

normals comes with genes like Amelanistic boas.

If someone sold a boa as normal, was actually a possible het KAHL Albino and ended up being a het, this would pose a huge problem.

Say the buyer bred it to a normal (remember this possible het IS a het, and was sold as normal) and sold the babies as normal. However, these babies would be 50% possible het albino.

Now someone buys a baby, what they think is a normal. It happens to be a het as well. BUT, they used it for a Sharp Albino breeding.

Now the breeder has a litter of what they HONESTLY think is het Sharp Albino, but is actually Het Sharp and 50% possible het Kahl.

There is now half a litter of DH Sharp Kahl Albinos.
UNWANTED in EVERY WAY. Someone buys babies from this litter, and breeds them. They get Albinos. BUT, the pair they bred was a pair of DH Sharp Kahl, and some of their Albino babies are actually double homozygous, some are NOT SHARP but are Kahl.

This is a HUGE problem, because now someone else will buy Albinos for Sharp projects, but they are actually Kahl strain. WHAT HAPPENS THEN?

chriskimble Apr 14, 2006 06:15 AM

np

L.A.Snakes, Inc. Apr 14, 2006 06:34 AM

Wow...What a killer clutch!

Griff / L.A.Snakes, INC. / lasnakes@hotmail.com
L.A.Snakes, Inc. / Griff

kirby Apr 14, 2006 07:02 AM

First let me say congratulations on a litter of great looking babies. They may turn out to better than hypo Motleys; time will tell.

I wanted to thank you for being so willing to share information. This kind of post outlining your breeding season are very usefull and this litter truely poses some interesting questions.

Now for my thoughts on this litter. First and foremost in my mind is that every litter you have this year and the whole breeding season must be taken in the context of animals being potentially severly stressed by hurricane Katrina. Obviously we try to make the environments for our animals as nice as possible but it is very hard to predict how animals will respond to severe events such as a hurricane. Will this make them more willing to breed in a time of enviromental instability or unlikely to breed for the same reason. Will the dramatic weather change their normal perception of breeding cues do to light, temperature and barometric changes. I have been wondering how breeders in the area of the severe hurricanes would do this year and if the animals would behave differently. I wonder if the fact all of the babies are female is related to this.

Now for the animals themselves I think the most likely explanation is that you were just really unlucky meaning that the Motley is the father and you just got no Motleys. Ironically, if this was a retained sperm event since the animals don't resemble last years jungles it would likely be the same conslusion; that you were unlucky to produce no jungles. What I think is important is to know what the parents of these parents, of the Motley in particular, look like. This may give you a lot of insight into these animals. In particular, it would be ineteresting to see how the "normals" compare to the parents.
Regarding the bad luck it is always a genetic roll of the dice. We frequently hear of when the odds gods work in someones favor but rarely do we hear the opposite. I think sometimes when hets or morph x het are bred and no visual morph is produced people conclude that the animal isn't a het when it may just be very bad luck. Look at how much difficulty Jeremy is having making the Blizzard. I think as more people breed successfully we will see more litters like this as the odds even out overall.

You and others certainly have more experience with jungles than me and I defer to you and others as to whether these are really jungles. This will be one of those litters that pronounces itself as destinctive at the start with very impressive animals and the significance and meaning of the appearance of the animals will hopefully be made clear in future breedings.

Congratulations again. These may not have been what you expected but they are very striking in appearance and may wind up being something special.

Bill Kirby

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 01:18 PM

I tried to be as detailed as I could in my original post because this whole issue is so perplexing!

I'm not sure how much of an effect the events of Hurricane Katrina had on our breeders. We were without electricity for about 2 1/2 weeks at the end of August/beginning of September. It was warm after the hurricane but not unbearably hot. Since we didn't have any electricity, the ambient air temperature was anywhere between 82 to around 85 degrees.

I don't know if Hurricane Katrina had a direct effect on our production in general this season. I honestly don't think it did/does. However, I do think that it may have had an indirect effect because it affected the weather and we have had an incredibly warm winter this year. Sean has been forced to artificially cool Ball Pythons in order to stimulate breeding activity.

As for the fact of all the babies being females, I have heard and read several theories, many of which are listed in this thread. I find them all to be VERY interesting and want to look into them all a little bit more. One theory a friend had suggested was possibly parthogenesis. I asked him to post the theory on here so hopefully he will do so!

As for the "bad luck" theory - now this I can agree with as a potential explaination because there is actually the possibility of that being what actually happened here (as opposed to the "Hypo male sire" theory). However, I do not think it explains why the babies look the way they do.

I can see things as - "Okay, we had REALLY bad luck and not only did we produce ZERO Hypo Motleys but ALSO ZERO regular Motleys". But how can the appearance of the babies produced be accounted for. I know you refer to the appearance of the parents' parents to help explain this but I STILL think that these babies display VERY classic Jungle characteristics.

When I look at them, the first thing that jumps out at me is the "two-tone" coloration which is classic on the Jungles we have produced. Once again - the "paint roller" coloration down the back vs. the side coloration is just so distinct. Also, the saddle shapes are blocky with many of them being squared off with cutouts in the middle of them. One of the Hypo "Whatever" babies has a little bit of aberrancy that is seen in Jungle Boas as well.

Of course the pattern aberrancies could have been caused/affected by the Hypo gene. We all know that it is NOT uncommon to have some very aberrant Hypo Boas produced from hypo breedings. However, this still would not explain the "two-tone" coloration. I personally have NEVER seen a regular Hypo or Super Hypo boa with this sort of coloration. The only place I have seen anything similar is in Hypo Jungles.

Also - something that I just checked on this morning - EVERY SINGLE Hypo "Whatever" has a mottled tongue. This can be a characteristic of a true Hypo Jungle. It is SO EXTREME on these babies that you don't even have to look twice to see it. The tongue is white, pink, and black and EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has it to an EXTREME DEGREE!

Now I will say that the traditional "thick, black outlining" around the saddles that Jungle Boas have is not apparent on these guys. In fact, it seems to have been replaced by slight white outlining which is strange. It does almost appear like they do on Super Hypo Boas (which is why I see people drawing upon the "Hypo male sire" theory.

Also, I want to mention the non-Hypo babies in this litter. I think we may have to look at them a little more closely for some possibly insights into what is going on here. The ones we have set aside as Jungles also classically display the Jungle traits - especially when I compare them to the two that I have set aside as normals. The "two-tone" coloration, the cookie-cutter saddle shape, the thick black outlining, the intense coloration - it's all there. When you compare these to the two that I have labled as "normals" they REALLY stand out!

I don't know anymore LOL. I just don't know...

Does nobody else - especially those who have worked with Jungles - think these are Jungles? Set aside the thought of the possiblity that these are Super Hypos. Examine the non-Hypo babies closely. If this litter was the result of a straight Jungle x normal or Jungle x Hypo breeding - would you not label these babies as Jungles?

I would love to hear opinions/comments on this.

I will be taking more photos of them today - especially of that one Hypo with the laddertail look.

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

JeffGray Apr 14, 2006 07:15 AM

Congrats on a fantastic litter!
They are beautiful. They look like spotted salamander leopard heads. Perhaps she has gotten the jungle out of her system now & will give you some hypo motleys next season. But if she is going to give you hypo jungles like this, let her keep up the good work. Who knows, maybe next year she will produce all males .

gray Apr 14, 2006 07:17 AM

.....sure is a neat problem to have. Celia, I can only recall one time when I was so awestruck by the color intensity of newborn boas. It was a litter that Rich and John had that they called "Cotton Candy". I only saw birth photos....I never heard about those animals or saw photos of those Cotton Candy Salmons since they were born (2004?). My gut feeling is that those are not Jungles. I think you have a midnight bandit Hypo that found a way to teleport himself into the females cage, get his lovin', and then return to the comforts of home.....and a long nap. No matter what they are, I would like to volunteer to be part of a research study. I have an empty cage here that would be perfect for one of those. I promise to study it carefully every day and report back my findings. I will even take on this duty volunarily without pay. I would consider this sacrifice to be part of my duty to the boa hobby.
gray

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 11:43 AM

this issue - We did NOT have a Hypo male in with this female whatsoever! NO, NO NO, NEVER EVER! LOL!

IF we did anything of the sort, I would be the FIRST one to say so. I would have included the information in my original post and come up with a different hypothesis. I have absolutely no reason to hide or lie about this fact! I posted as much as I could about this whole breeding trial because we are stumped. The explainantion we came up with for the litter was retained sperm although I know this may or may not be correct.

But back to the issue at hand - this girl has NEVER been with a another Hypo - EVER. PERIOD! For those of you who know me, you know I would not mislead people about this.

However, I do completely understand the sketicism and conclusions that several of you are drawing. These Hypo "Whatevers" are so extreme that if I put myself in your shoes, "Supers" would be the first thing to come to my mind too!

Anyways, I will say it once more and I'll say it a million times afterwards - THIS FEMALE HAS NEVER BEEN WITH A MALE HYPO GENE CARRYING ANIMAL HER ENTIRE ADULT LIFE! Not for a day or an hour or a minute or even a second! Both Sean and I will attest to that!

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
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ajfreptiles Apr 14, 2006 12:44 PM

I am convinced after seeing your other litter of Jungles again....even more that you produced Hypo Motleys...I even see multiple forms in the normals as well...I know all the others may disagree...but this is what I see. Andy Federico
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gray Apr 14, 2006 12:45 PM

....the first time, Celia. That is why I came up with my teleporting theory. But seriously, I have no doubt in what you are saying. I was just sharing what I thought they looked like from here. The worst part is that without any males, we are going to have to wait a few long years to get the final answer.

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 10:52 PM

I thought you were being serious and completely missed the sarcasm. Sometiemes it's hard to pick up in writing LOL.

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

giantkeeper Apr 14, 2006 08:12 AM

triggered by the hurricanes? No matter why it happened, that sure is crazy! Congrats on the neat litter.
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Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

giantkeeper Apr 14, 2006 08:24 AM

help explain the females.
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Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

locolizard Apr 14, 2006 09:12 AM

I dont follow your line of thinking? What explains all the females?

giantkeeper Apr 14, 2006 10:45 AM

To spell it out for you, in times of distress, some animals will produce more females to help carry on the species. Exactly as Bill touched upon a couple of replies up. It's a survival instinct. Understand my line of thinking?
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Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

rainbowsrus Apr 14, 2006 10:57 AM

Maybe in the retained sperm, the Male sperms were just not as long lived and had all died off leaving only female sperm.

Something is tickling the back of my brain about this subject but I can't seem to pull it forward. Something about the male sperm finding the female environment/hormones harsher then the corresponding female sperm. I don't think this info is reptile specific, actually I believe it is mammalian type research but may very well apply.
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Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
2.7 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (adult breeders)
2.5 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2004)
4.8 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2005)
2.1 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

vcaruso15 Apr 14, 2006 10:58 AM

he stated often litters with high slug counts are very female heavy.

giantkeeper Apr 14, 2006 01:03 PM

I for one cannot wait to see these little guys after they shed a few times.....
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Chris & Alliey
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creptilia Apr 14, 2006 02:44 PM

I am not sure if this occurs in Boas as it does in some other reptiles (e.g. the whiptail lizard, Cnemidophorous sp.), but it does explain the outcome. All female litter from a female with only a set of X chromosomes- there is no chance for a male. It explains the hypos and the fact Supers were produced. Like Jeremy, I have never had sperm retention like that. I have produced a couple of litters with extremely high slug counts, where I thought parthogenesis was possible due to the phenotypic outcome. I think something wierd is going on and it is not sperm retention- I also think those are beautiful Super Hyps and NOT Hypo Jungles. Congrats either way!

Comments welcome.
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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

Randall_Turner Apr 14, 2006 02:55 PM

I was wondering if this was the potential reason myself. I can never remember the term though lol.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

ChrisGilbert Apr 15, 2006 01:24 AM

Y chromosome sperm have a shorter lifespan than X chromosome sperm in a female?
If so, this may account for the ratio. Also, the X chromosome's weakness over time WOULD account for the high slugs.

Well this THEORY stands for the sex ratio (or lack of) and live vs. slug ratio. I have NO CLUE about the color.

Kevin_Ivens Apr 14, 2006 08:45 AM

After reading all the opinions, and facts, I still just don't get it!!

There has to be something going on with the female retaining that sperm for a year! And if that's the case, then your male jungle has one hell of an arsenal!!!!!!!!

Congrats!

drimes Apr 14, 2006 09:06 AM

for sharing. I am constantly amazed by things that happen with these cool critters. I personaly love the fact that I can (and will) spend the rest of my life with these animals and still not "see it all". My non-snake friends don't understand the fascination, and even if I was to tell them of this birth they would not truely get how amazing it is.

Congratulations again!!

Kathy

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 01:24 PM

I know EXACTLY what you mean about non-reptile people not sharing your enthusiasm and excitement. I feel the exact same way when I try to talk to my "tennis-friends" or my ex-coworkers about anything reptile related LOL! Thank god for the forum and just as enthusiastic and excitable boa friends LOL!!

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
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ajfreptiles Apr 14, 2006 11:13 AM

Congrats Celia!!!!!!!!!!! What an outstanding litter!!! Andy Federico
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combs reptiles Apr 14, 2006 01:55 PM

Nice Boas. This is a real mind teaser.
Very cool... Im waiting to see what motley to jungle will look like... a few of these look very interesting.

Best wishes
Mike & Luz Combs

Psycodelic Apr 14, 2006 02:58 PM

...

sdi Apr 14, 2006 02:11 PM

I agree with Gray that they look like the "cotton candy" supers produced by Rich and John. I also agree that a couple of them look like the Hotleys from a couple weeks ago.

What I think happened is along the lines of what Gabor stated. That is the sperm was retained, and during that time may have mutated. However, the jungle gene was the one that mutated. I am not even sure if a co-dominant gene could morph into a dominant gene. You ratios are pretty close to suggesting they could. A couple questions I have are why are all the hypo jungles so light and reduced in pattern? I noticed a HUGE difference in the appearance of the salmon jungles in your 2005 and 2006 litters. Also why don't any of the jungles have the typical aberrancies? A lot of them look like leopard hets.

The only similarity I can come up with between your litter and previous experiences is aberrancies due to temperature during the gestation period. A lot of times some of the offspring are lighter or some have wacky patterns. It is obvious there is a lot more going on. I am not suggesting the affects are so much a result of temperature as time. Kind of like a fine wine. lol

Regardless, that is a very exciting litter. Put me down for one of your hypo motleys that will be born next year?!?!?!

Steve - sdi

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 10:59 PM

"Cotton Candy" Supers but would be very interested in checking them out if anyone has a photo of them!

If these are in fact Jungles and Hypo Jungles (which now I have absolutely no idea if this is correct), I'm not sure why the Hypo Jungles have so little black coloration. As for the Jungles not having the "typical aberrancies", our Jungles tend not to have a lot of connected aberrant saddles but rather display high coloration and more blocky cookie cutter saddles. If you take a look at the Jungles we had last year, you should be able to see what i mean.

Here's a photo of one of our Jungle babies next to a normal baby from last year...

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

ChrisGilbert Apr 14, 2006 02:23 PM

and totally unexpected outcome.

When I was talking to Sean last week he mentioned the other trials. I am glad you had a nice litter, and an exciteing one at that!

scaleman Apr 14, 2006 03:57 PM

They look great celia! Congrats!! I don't know what you'd label them, but I'll be looking for the add either way
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ecreipeoj Apr 16, 2006 02:14 PM

What would happen if two pattern traits are bred together. My girlfriend and I were talking about that on our way to visit Linda and see her Super Motleys. Since the Motleys are actually Het for Motley and Normal and Salmons are Het for Salmon and Normal, at two different loci, who is to say that the Salmon gene did not mask the Motley gene.

The Motley genes phenotype is actually the Super Motley. The Motleys, as they have been know for years, are actually a co-dominant phenotype between Normal and Motley. In the case of the Salmons, they are dominant over normal and could mask another morph at a different locus.

I don’t really know the answer to this question, but Linda mentioned that she thought she heard that the Orange Tail Hypo and the Salmon Hypo may have originated from different locals. Do we know that the Orange Tail Hypo and the Salmon Hypo gene is genetically compatible or located at the same locus? It would be extremely difficult to determine this by breeding them together if they are both dominant. If the two phenotypes look very similar but are located at a different locus, you really wouldn’t know if they were compatible or not since they would both show up in a clutch due to their dominance.

What if the Hypo Motleys we have seen in the past were produced by lets say the Orange Tail Hypo, and the Orange Tail Hypo gene did not mask the Motley gene and you got a combination of the two. In this case, if the Salmon gene is a different gene, then the combined outcome could be different. The Salmons gene could mask the Motley gene or partially mask it, to a point where the Motleys genes influence could not be easily identified. There may in fact be more that two hypo genes that have very similar phenotypes but are located at different loci. If they are all dominant to normal, it would be practically impossible to separate them out.

A breeding of a Motley X Jungle could show both genes influence in the same Boa or one of the genes could be dominant over the other. Since both of these genes are co-dominant to Normal at their respective loci, who is to say what the phenotype of a boa would be that is het for Motley and Jungle. A Boa that is homo for Motley and Jungle, or Homo for Super Motley and Super Jungle, as know in the Boa World, may or may not show influence from both Morphs. One may completely dominant the other or they may show an in-between Morph.

In the Corn Snake World, we have proven that there are 5 different hypo genes located at different loci and we may have just discovered the sixth. Since they are recessive, we have been able to isolate them out. Just how many dominant or co-dominant hypo genes are there in Boas and how can they be separated out? Their combined influence with other mutant Boas genes could be very different. One may have a combined effect, while another could dominate and mask another mutant gene.
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Joe Pierce
Snakes Alive!
"Home of the guaranteed feeders"
"If it won't eat, it is not worth a dime!"

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