Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok guys, the double-clutching mystery has been answered for me thanks to Tom, Will, FR and others.

Thanks for the insight.

Can you guys tell me your understanding of sperm plugs? I always thought they were the masses of dried sperm/ semen that was hardened and in the snake's hemipenes. I thought that the snake had to push these out during courtship and before copulation.

I spoke with another colubrid breeder over the weekend who told me that he thought they were little globules (spelling?) of sperm/ semen that leaked from the oviduct(s) of the female after copulation.

Rainer has told me on the phone before (and I have read his posts) that sperm plugs mean a successful copulation. However, I found sperm plugs on a snake last year after a time together with a male - and the snake never laid eggs. Don't get me wrong - I trust Rainer's advice and knowledge, I just do not understand the actual "meaning" of sperm plugs.

One of my Eastern Kings pairings has produced sperm plugs on the female on two different times (over a week apart) this year.

Is there someone out there who can tell me what the meaning of sperm plugs is?
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

You would think with the speed of the internet, folks would now understand what was understood decades ago. I guess the internet is fast at getting people to read caresheets.

Its not the fault of keepers or caresheets or the internet, its the fault of or education. I am getting the feeling, our current education system is also a "caresheet" type of education.

One of my common sayings with monitors is, THEY ARE NOT WINDUP TOYS' which means, they have all sorts of abilities. They do not respond in a direct way. That is, after you wind one up, it may not go forward, but may go sideways, backwards, up, not go anywhere, etc. They are living animals which can express lots of behaviors, from a single stimulis. Consider, the definition to of life is, the ability to respond to a stimulis(what i was taught)

Where this is leading is, the reproductive biology of reptiles is not simple or strait forward. Its a mass of complicated behaviors and functions. Behaviors and functions are tied together. Hmmmmmmmmmmm oh no.

For instance, in this case, a female snake does not simply breed, then become gravid, then lay eggs(in a well lighted shoebox) and move on to follow your schedule. The lack of this understanding is rampant and common here and that goes back to the internet. How could it be?????? this amazes me. A really cool thought, the speed of the internet, and people still living in the dark ages. Sorry for the barbs but, come on. I simply cannot understand this. Remember, this stuff was understood, over three decades ago. Hmmmmmmm and practiced.

Biologically, a gravid female goes thru many many steps during gestation. The reproductive event is no more then a series of steps. Each step starts at the completion of the previous step. These steps can overlap. There are many steps going on at once. But lets not confuse you.

Some of these steps or events are concerned with this subject. The Cloaca is a handy little device, its not a simple bunghole. On the top and to each side of the cloaca is where the oviducts enter the cloaca. The eggs come out here, and sperm goes in here. This opening is closed at most times. Hmmmmmmm CRAP moves thru the cloaca toooooo. You would not want crap entering the oviducts would we?

Heck these openings are little tiny and closed during most of the year. But when a female is receptive. Hormones are expressed(that old endoctrine system) which change the cloaca and oviduct openings. This only occurs for a short period. Again we do not want feces entering this organ, do we????? What on earth are you guys thinking? When a male copulates, material is secreted to plug the opening. It plugs the opening until the opening shrinks back to its normal size(to prevent crap from entering) After this plug is formed, any further copulations leave a sperm ball in the cloaca, this normally is expelled when the male is finished with copulation. Its very visable and easy to see(IF YOU LOOK)

Many think this sperm plug is to prevent any other males from fertilizing the females eggs. This is where goofball people go on about superior genes, dominate males, etc. Which is a total bunch of bull crap. Consider, in many cases stuff like this in not entirely right or entirely wrong, this superior stuff is partially right, say on a scale of 1 to a 1000, its about 3 to 3 1/2 right. The dang plug is more about preventing crap and related bacteria for spoiling the oviducts.

About those many steps, some are when hormones are emitted to prepare the oviducts for the support of both ovum, and the living sperm. Remember the ovum is a gamate sex cell, its not alive yet. Sperm for some reason is considered alive. Remember the partically right and partically wrong thing, it applies here too. Ok, both the sperm and the ovum must be alive and in good health. At some time the ovum is passed thru the living sperm. And if all conditions are right, the ovum is fertilized. Life is not created. Hmmmmmmmm ok.

So sirs and sirsettes, how does this dang golfball get out. Specially when the opening is closed, no crap allowed remember that. Well that dang indoc system again expresses hormones that control the softening and relaxing of the spinkter(more sp) muscles. This allows the opening to be stretched to allow the passage of these golf balls. After the eggs pass thru, this opening returns to its old tiny do not let crap in self.

This series of events does indeed bring about a series of questions about a series of problems. Gravid females only have so long to pass their eggs or the oviductal opening is no longer pliable. This is a reason for becoming eggbound. Along with the other common cause, dehydration.

The reason I go on an on is, back to the start, these animals are not caresheets, they are a series of related overlaping events, and that is their entire lifes. You need to understand, the other closing related events to understand a single event.

Remember, I do not consider any of this as entirely right, its merely a guide and may be more accurate then what is being said. Thanks

FR - I appreciate the info... but, cutting through all of that - you are saying that the sperm plug is a mass of biological material (not the same semen that fertilizes the eggs) that the male "finishes" with so as to plug the oviduct?

Hmm, makes total sense. Why would it be in 2 little balls on the back of the female - more than 5" from the vent (unless the female swiped her vent with her back)?

What you are saying, also, is that the sperm plug comes at the tail-end of copulation and not before (as I had thought)?

By the way, I appreciate all of your information - I really do. Sometimes you come across as a little condescending: and you did in that post --- I have never seen a "care sheet" that addressed the issue of sperm plugs and where they fit in, chronologically, with the mating process.

Cheers.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

As humans, we get upset at what we don't understand, specially when we should understand it already.

Its such a huge surprise to me that the average understanding is less then it was decades ago. Specially considering the massive amount of people working with snakes now. And the invention called the internet.

Caresheet husbandry is following someones advice and not the needs of the actual animal. That is, So and so, breeds a species, then writes the basics. Then others follow that. Without consulting the expert. The expert is the animals in question.

The point is kinda vague. I came here a talk about a wider range of choices. People get mad at that. I talk about the mechanics of reproduction, people get mad at that. I talk about a different range of results, people get mad at that. I show different types of nesting, yes, they get mad at that, too. I show wild reptiles in winter being active, people get mad at that. I show them feeding in winter, again people get mad at that. hahahahahahahahahaha and you expect what from me? I guess being condensending is about my best choice. I would rather line you all up and kick you in your collective nads. But thats out of the question. Isn't it? hahahahahahahahaha

All this stuff you fellas get mad or upset with is not about me. Althought you aim it at me. ITs about you and what you, don't understand. Its about the snakes and what your missing with them. You should really be upset with yourselves.

If you ask me what I think I am missing, or my partner, we would both answer with, Well, I am missing most of it. In other words, theres lots and lots more to learn.

I mention things, not to tell you its absolutely true(its not) its to get you interested and look for yourself. You do know all you have to do is rub the back of a cycled female and she will Cloacal gape(carpenter, early 70's)(lift her tail and open her vent) you can then use a flashlite and look in, if your interested.

Peter, you have all these snakes and they are doing all this stuff, but your not watching and asking them. Your asking humans. That is caresheet. You do know you can feel(palpate) a female and be able to tell when shes going to be receptive? Its easy. You do not have to guess. Heck, with some experience you can tell by looking at them. They look totally different.

You do understand, you can tell about when a snake is going to lay. Just be looking at her skin. As they get closer to laying they use up the fat in the skin and the skin actually becomes thinner. All the above is very comparable with wild snakes too.

Also you can feel the fat bodies inside females and tell if she has laid recently. Sir, these are all tools of captive management and wild studies. Cheers

Don't get mad Frank, just keep the creative juices flowin'! I for one will be wearing my cup when we meet, LOL! Most of the events you describe have been witnessed by a very few that would pass along the info. Thank you.
Todd Hughes

...I totally agree with your comments on education. The caresheet mentality is the the closest thing to an accurate description that I have heard yet. I spent nearly a month on the endocrine system, closely following district curriculum, and the most useful lessons came from direct observations of our class breeding trio of blue poison frogs (Dendrobates azurius) and their hormone based reactions to their environment (moisture levels/food). We are currently the caretakers of 8 froglets, and 20 tads. My 6th graders have a deeper understanding of the endocrine system (dart frogs) and genetics (plant cloning, dart frogs) than most of my fellow educators that I know.

I put the the majority of the fault for this continuing sad state of affairs of our education system soley on in the hands of our fearless leader (insert sarcasm here), ole' GW Bush. His No Child Left Behind Act has caused nearly all meaningful education to be stopped in favor of the teach to the test, or lose your funding mentality that our states have been strong-armed into. We are forced to bend the curriculum to focus on the poorly designed state tests that we must administer yearly, and leave all of the the truly substantive teaching to the little extra time that we have.

Anyway, I digress. Pete I'm glad you have picked up some good info on the double clutching issue and I'm just sorry that some of the scientist types that post here still don't see its role in the population dynamics of reptiles. Frank, as always, thanks for your candor and the physiological insight that you have shared that may be new info for many folks here. BTW, the glauerti are doing great. Thanks for your insight there as well.

Will

Careful with the politics willstill - you might get this thread moved to the general forum...

As I recall, the "education system" has pretty much sucked for a long, long, time. But we can fix it! Just throw more money at it! And this whole performance/competence - based grading system? What a crock! Reading, righting, math - even spelling! Who needs it? All kids need is high self-esteem and warm fuzzy understanding, and send them on their way, ready to face the big bad world...

JD
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0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"

point the blame at the parents not the government.smart kids have homes that they learn in not smart schools. moms and dads are the reason kids fail not g.w.bush.get your head out of the editorial page of your teachers union hand-out pamphlet and look at the truth. and thanks for your effort.
jason wilson

Both home AND school must bear part of the blame, but this anti-science, anti-intellectual administration is leading this country in full speed reverse! What message does it send to kids when the findings of the world's scientific community on such vital matters as global warming, stem cells, ozone depletion, etc. are ignored in favor of a predetermined political agenda? It stinks-and I fear we'll all pay dearly for it in the end.

Brad Chambers

Because they are ADAPTIVE! That is the only reason that any physiological or behavioral trait is retained by an organism. Every snake has an energy budget to spend, with the ultimate goal being to leave behind the maximum number of offspring possible. In the long run, this is all that matters. It's the age-old Darwinian game, and the rules are unforgiving. Under some circumstances, double clutching is the best strategy to achieve that goal. If I'm a female kingsnake, and the hunting is good this season, and I have sufficient body fat reserves, then I'd JUMP at the chance to produce a second clutch of eggs! That way I'm able to get two season's worth of "work" done in one! After all, with predators, illness, parasites, unceretain hibernation conditions, etc.,what are the odds I'll even be around for another reproductive season? Not that great.

If things aren't so good? Then my best strategy is to at least get one clutch laid, if possible, then build up enough body fat to make it through another winter and try again next year (this will also have the bonus effect of leaving fewer hatchlings behind in a lean year to compete for scarce resources).

Brad Chambers

Only with your statement that organisms produce the maximum offspring possible. That is not true, not in the least. If it was, then all snakes would be like flys or watersnakes you know, have hundreds of babies.

The goal is exsistance. In that, you must produce a least the minimum nunber to exsist. This is approached in many ways. From a few large babies(headstart program) to lots and lots of tiny offspring. Its also approached with singe large clutches, multiple small clutches, etc. There is no need to go on an on with different approachs.

Whats clear, is the goal. To continue the exsistance of the species. This requires animals to at least replace themselves.

Of course some species require lots of offspring to continue exsistance, others have an advantage and only require a few. Or else they would all have the same, yes? Cheers

FR writes:

"Whats clear, is the goal. To continue the exsistance of the species. This requires animals to at least replace themselves.

Of course some species require lots of offspring to continue exsistance, others have an advantage and only require a few. Or else they would all have the same, yes? Cheers"

IMO, this statement would be true if there were only competition between species. But there is also plenty of competition within species-and he/she who leaves behind the most "successful" offspring is the clear winner.

You're right, Frank, I was being imprecise when I stated that the goal was the "most" offspring-it obviously wouldn't pay to flood your habitat with hundred of little mouths to fed, to the extent tnat all or most ended up starving! This of course opens up the "R" strategist (watersnake) and "K" strategist (pine snake)discussion-which I'll leave for another day lol...

Best regards
Brad Chambers