Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I like them both but still not sold on the combo. I guess because I consider the clown more of a pattern morph that a color morph....

Seems the pied in most pied crosses tends to obliterate the other pattern also, making them a bit unsightly.

Quig

I'm with you since the pied morph is supposed to obliterate the snakes pattern then I don't really see any reason to cross them to pattern morphs like pinners, spiders and clowns ... but you never know maybe it won't.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

Where does this information come from? I thought that the only pied cross to date was the pastel pied. With those snakes there is a definite pastel-like pattern to much of the non-white portions. What pied combination has resulted in the other morph's pattern being obliterated by the pied's?

Seems a bit premature to guess what would happen when crossing a clown and pied. If you look at a cinnamon x spider, the cinnamon's pattern is dominant. So crossing a cinnamon to a pastel, you might expect the same sort of results. But instead you get a really cool snake that was totally unexpected.

Who knows what a clown pied would look like?

Just wondering where the background information came from to make your speculations.

All of the pastel pied pictures I've seen they look like pieds (with a completely wiped out pattern) except that they have pastel coloring.

Also - everytime we see a heavy ringer - the first thing everyone says is "that's not a pied - the pied gene wipes out patterning" if there is a pied that has a pattern remaining (aside from it's head) I haven't seen it.

Or maybe you'd have better luck mixing with a dom or co-dom morph than another recessive.

Like I said - you never know!
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

Hey Cory,
Is that the new male Clown? It looks very nice. Also chunky. Good luck with that fellow.

p.s. You're working on so many other crosses, why not give that one a try too?

Congrats,
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Tim and Monica Bailey
Bailey & Bailey Reptiles

...

I think the pied with the clown will be cool. The reason is, I bet the pied pattern will mostly take over the clown pattern... except the head. You would get a pied body with a clown head. Really you never know what will happen, but at the very least, you should have a clown head and that would be neat.

But has anyone done this cross yet to prove that they aren't alleles (i.e. that you would get the expected normal looking double hets)?

do you have a clue what alleles are?

An allele is the location on the chromosome where the mutation is located. This results in different genotypes for each genetic mutation.

I expect that you are thinking of TWO mutations whose Genotypes are ON the same Allele. If this was the case with Pieds and Clowns I could produce a Pied by breeding a Pied to a het Clown.

SORRY, DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!

The ONLY mutations in snakes that have been shown to have the same allele for TWO DIFFERENT PHENOTYPES are Stripe and Motley CORN SNAKES. If you breed a Stripe to a Motley you DO NOT GET DOUBLE HETEROZYGOUS (So you know both mutations are recessive) you get a snake that shows traits of both mutations.

Please DO not post information that is not FACT based, it doesn't help people that are trying to learn.

do you have a clue what alleles are?

Like many genetics terms "allele" has some slightly different usages. I agree that it can be used in the broad sense of any gene location. However, if you google it you will also find it often defined as one of the different forms of a gene that can exist at a single locus. That's how I first became familiar with the term when it was proposed that the corn snake mutations Striped and Motley might be alleles in A Color Guide to Corn Snakes in 1991 before the two mutations where ever crossed to put it to the test.

If this was the case with Pieds and Clowns I could produce a Pied by breeding a Pied to a het Clown.

SORRY, DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!

That is what I'm asking. Has anyone done this cross to know if it does or doesn't work that way?

Years ago I saw a post where Matt Turner produced an unexpected piebald from a clown project. Unfortunately I don't remember the exact details and have never heard any follow up results of future breedings. I think he was using a het clown male but I don't remember what the female was (suspect it was a presumed normal selected for belly markings).

I'm not saying it's extremely likely that pied and clown are different mutant alleles of the same locus but it's a possible explanation for that one breeding that as far as I know has not yet been tested and eliminated.

The ONLY mutations in snakes that have been shown to have the same allele for TWO DIFFERENT PHENOTYPES are Stripe and Motley CORN SNAKES.

There is strong evidence (but not yet ironclad proof) that Lesser, Mojave, Phantom, Vin Russo High Yellow Lemon, and perhaps even a theoretical dilute gene that combines with Lesser to make a Platy, and possibly also whatever combined with Mojave to make the Crystal Ball may be a huge multiple mutant allele group in ball pythons.

Please DO not post information that is not FACT based, it doesn't help people that are trying to learn.

I strive not to post incorrect information. However I think public forums are a great place to hypothesize and then discuss get to the more interesting and obscured facts. Sometimes people will get confused with technical discussions but at least the ones who want have the opportunity to learn and contribute to the fledgling knowledgebase of this hobby. I don’t write the general readership off as not being capable of understanding any discussion with the proper explanation. If more people are getting confused than learning then we just aren’t doing a good enough job of explaining.

doesn't mean they are used correctly.
If you are looking to understand genetics I reccommend a scientific journal or other published, credible material. Not a web search, you are aware anyone can post anything on the internet.

As I mentioned the only PROVEN case was the Motley and Stipe Corns. The Blue eyed white snake producers have not undergone enough breeding trials to understand their genotypes.

I am not attacking you, just being blunt.

As I mentioned the only PROVEN case was the Motley and Stipe Corns. The Blue eyed white snake producers have not undergone enough breeding trials to understand their genotypes.

The Motley and Stripe relation in corns is very interesting. Great that they finally got the breeding trials in the last year or so to know that the motley allele dominates the striped (almost 15 years after McEachern's book). With less prolific ball pythons we should have an answer in 20 years if no new questions come up in the mean time or economic politics get in the way.

One theory that could explain the Matt Turner piebald would be if clown and piebald where alleles (I still believe that is the most common use of the term) and piebald dominates clown. Maybe someone will start the initial breeding trial to test this in the next few years.

that tests need to be done, with most morphs.

We need someone to analyze Ball Pythons and see how many mutations possibilities exist!

Redargentina,

Man you are so off kilter here don't even know where to start.

First off, Randy has been an active contributor to this forum and many others at Kingsnake for a long time now, he has posted many posts filled to the brim with information regarding the genetics of these different morphs.

Now the question is, what have you posted in contribution? Why should you come here without previous posts that add credibility to your argument...

And lastly, you are incorrect in both your definition of allele and in saying that theoretical hypothesis don't belong on this board, you are way off.

So, don't come across so abrasively, and read the posts first before posting so you don't look like such an ass.

-Dan

keep to what you know. If you seek more information there is an old tool known as research.

At any rate, I have been around longer than you know, and will continue.

Just look at me as a spokesman for the people who won't ruin their reputations and hurt their businesses brandashing others for their cluelessness. I know I won't.

Hide in your pathetic bubble. If you want to take a look at the real world do so, but not lightly.

I am sick of idiots thinking they have a clue and the morons in this business that think they know what they are doing. Leave it to the experienced people, or learn from them!

Randy,
Your question was correct. Has anyone crossed a clown with a piebald to show that the two mutations are not alleles? The resulting cross could produce a snake with a pattern other wild type if the two mutations are allelic.
The answer is that I do not know if it has been done.
RedArgentina, lighten up.
Alleles are different genotypes at a single chromosome locus. This may be wildtype and a mutation, two mutations, or even two alleles that both code for wild type.

One thing I do know, those are two great looking snakes!!! Is that pied the one you got from us? If so, is she still eating well for you? As far as the cross goes, I don't know what I think either, but am interested to see what it will yield.
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Ben
www.australianaddiction.com

She is doing great...I will take another...lol

Glad to hear she is doing well. It looks like our het girl may lay again this year, and one of our pos hets (with HEAVY marker for het pied) looks like she might go as well. We too are hoping for some more pieds!!! I really don't get tired of looking at our little male.
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Ben
www.australianaddiction.com